Daniel 9, commandment, segments, subtotals, and gaps

[Douggg]

First, the commandment from God that the 70 years are over v23.
then a gap called 7 weeks, the first segment, to a different commandment,
then, a second segment of 62 weeks unto messiah,
then a another gap (inferred) in which the messiah is cutoff, and the temple and city destroyed, to the third segment of 1 week.


At the time Daniel was praying in Daniel 9, it was at the end of the 70 years of serving the King of Babylon prophecy given by Jeremiah.

The commandment that the 70 years are ended is in v23. That commandment had to have come from God.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

Thus, the 70 years are over in first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes.

1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

Who is Darius the son Ahasuerus, a Mede ? And when was he king over the Chaldeans?

There is not an easy answer because there apparently no information on him from what I am gathering in my internet research.

From the first year of his reign there is a gap defined as 7 weeks (a segment of), i.e 49 years, to another commandment this time by a human edict - unlike the commandment given in v23 from God declaring the 70 years over.

And after the events have taken place initiated by that human commandment, there is a 62 weeks segment later are unto messiah. The net result being 7 weeks segment + 62 weeks segment = 69 weeks subtotal x 7 yrs/week = 483 years

The question becomes "unto messiah" ? What does that mean?

The answer is in v26, by being told after the 62 weeks segment, the 69 week subtotal, i.e the 483 years, the messiah is cutoff. Not after a 62 1/2 week segment, i.e. 486 1/2 years, as some are claiming.

So unto messiah is the 69 week subtotal, in terms of years - 483 years.

After the 483 years, the messiah is cutoff. Which unto messiah, corresponds to John 12:12-15 fulfilling the 483 years. After that fulfillment, the messiah is cutoff, which happened 4 days after John 12:12-15 - into the gap (inferred) until the next segment of 1 week, i.e 1 week x 7 years/week = 7 years.

The total number of weeks is 70 weeks. With subtotals and gaps of the three segments.

 

[mkgal1]

Something to keep in mind is that most of the Old Testament was poetry and song. A common form of ancient Hebrew writing is the chiasm. The main difference between a chiastic structure and our modern way of writing is that chiasms or the chiastic structure is formed by grouping topics - modern writing is normally sequential (written in the order of how it happens).

There's a lot more to it....but here's an example of a chiastic structure of Daniel 9:25-27. The main point is typically in the center:

 

[Douggg]

Something to keep in mind is that most of the Old Testament was poetry and song. A common form of ancient Hebrew writing is the chiasm. The main difference between a chiastic structure and our modern way of writing is that chiasms or the chiastic structure is formed by grouping topics - modern writing is normally sequential (written in the order of how it happens).

timeframe segments are given in an order to know that chiastic structure does not apply in v25-27. Plus the nature of the text does not indicate chiastic structure.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The Biblical 70 Weeks of Daniel 9

 

[jeffweedaman]

Was there a gap in the 70 years of captivity?

Most of us would say No. It was spot on.

In that theological context the 70 years of weeks will have no Gaps either.

 

[Douggg]

Was there a gap in the 70 years of captivity?

Most of us would say No. It was spot on.

In that theological context the 70 years of weeks will have no Gaps either.

No, the answer to the first question.

Jeff, don't you think that Daniel in his prayer realized that the 70 years were up?

If so, between the day of Daniel's prayer and the commandment to rebuild and restore 7 weeks (49 weeks) later, is that 7 weeks (49 years) not a defined gap - in the total 70 weeks?

Between the arrival of the messiah and the beginning of the 70th week is an undefined gap.

The deifned gap is part of the 70 weeks.
The undefined gap is not part of the 70 weeks.

_________________________________________________________

Daniel's prayer, then a defined gap of 7 weeks (49 years) to the command to restore and rebuild. Then 62 more weeks (434 years) to the messiah.

Then an undefined gap to the beginning of the 70th week.

In the undefined gap, the messiah is cutoff, the city and temple destroyed, the Jews taken captive into the nations, and the time of the gentiles occupying Jerusalem in the Jews' absence.

 

[Douggg]

 

[Timtofly]

In that theological context the 70 years of weeks will have no Gaps either.

"Will have"? It is still future?

Jeremiah did not break his 70 years down into 7 years and 62 years like Gabriel did. Gabriel gave us gaps, your argument is with Gabriel and God's Word.

 

[DavidPT]

Was there a gap in the 70 years of captivity?

Most of us would say No. It was spot on.

In that theological context the 70 years of weeks will have no Gaps either.

You all agree there are 2 comings of Christ, yet you all don't even factor in the 2nd coming, in regards to the 70 weeks. IMO, Daniel 9:24-27 is a clever prophecy, where, until what is recorded in the NT came to light, there were always two comings of Christ present in the text, and that one of them was hidden until then. At the end of the 70th week is when the 2nd coming happens. What Christ accomplished 2000 years ago on the cross, one comes in the end of this age in order to shift worship to him rather than Christ, and that Christ puts an end to it's reign via the 2nd coming.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

"Will have"? It is still future?

Jeremiah did not break his 70 years down into 7 years and 62 years like Gabriel did. Gabriel gave us gaps, your argument is with Gabriel and God's Word.

The 7 years and the 62 years are not gaps. This is an invalid argument.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Jeff, don't you think that Daniel in his prayer realized that the 70 years were up?

He observed that in the books in Darius first year rule over the Chaldeans.

Daniel then went into prayer pleading for the forgiveness for his own sins and the sins of his people.
An answer was given immediately as he began to pray that would exceed his expectations.

The answer was that 70 weeks of years have been decreed for this complete forgiveness of sins from the going forth of a certain decree.
7 and 62 of those weeks would pass uninterrupted and then the Messiah would arrive with the Anointing and the right blood type to gift us this forgiveness of sins by the sacrifice of himself.
The time was fulfilled and his Mission accomplished Amen.

Mk 1
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God,

2 just as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:

“Behold, I am sending My messenger before You,
Who will prepare Your way;
3 The voice of one calling out in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way of the Lord,
Make His paths straight!’”

4 John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins. 6 John was clothed with camel’s hair and wore a leather belt around his waist, and his diet was locusts and wild honey. 7 And he was preaching, saying, “After me One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to bend down and untie the straps of His sandals. 8 I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

The Baptism of Jesus
9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit, like a dove, descending upon Him; 11 and a voice came from the heavens: “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”

12 And immediately the Spirit *brought Him out into the wilderness. 13 And He was in the wilderness for forty days, being tempted by Satan; and He was with the wild animals, and the angels were serving Him.

Jesus Preaches in Galilee
14 Now after John was taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

 

[Douggg]

Daniel then went into prayer pleading for the forgiveness for his own sins and the sins of his people.
An answer was given immediately as he began to pray that would exceed his expectations.

The answer was that 70 weeks of years have been decreed for this complete forgiveness of sins from the going forth of a certain decree.

My question to you is when in regards to 70 weeks were the 70 years over?

7 and 62 of those weeks would pass uninterrupted

I don't disagree with that part. What took place in those first 7 weeks (49 years) ?
Was it not the Jews resettling back to Jerusalem?

and then the Messiah would arrive with the Anointing and the right blood type to gift us this forgiveness of sins by the sacrifice of himself.

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem as the messiah in John 12:12-15 to fulfill the 483 years (7 weeks + 62 weeks). Everything regarding Jesus's life up unto that point had been in the 62 weeks.

 

[Douggg]

@jeffweedaman

I view the 70 weeks as...

1. what happened in the first 7 weeks
2. what happened in the next 62 weeks
3. what happened in the gap, after the 62 weeks
4. what happens in the last 1 week, time of the end

 

[jeffweedaman]

My question to you is when in regards to 70 weeks were the 70 years over?

The 70 years captivity were over at the start of Daniels prayer for forgiveness. God answered that prayer with the promise of full atonement in a 70 weeks of years period that began with a certain decree.



[ I don't disagree with that part. What took place in those first 7 weeks (49 years) ?]


The prophets of the restoration were raised up ending with Malachi, and the voice in the wilderness preparing the way for Messiah to be revealed after the 7 and a further 62 weeks.

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem as the messiah in John 12:12-15 to fulfill the 483 years (7 weeks + 62 weeks). Everything regarding Jesus's life up unto that point had been in the 62 weeks.

Jesus sheds his blood for the forgiveness of sins in the 70th week Doug
He arrives after 7 and 62 to complete that work.

7o weeks for that atonement not 69 weeks.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus sheds his blood for the forgiveness of sins in the 70th week Doug
He arrives after 7 and 62 to complete that work.

7o weeks for that atonement not 69 weeks.

The point I am making is the 7wks + 62wks are unto the Messiah.

Then in v26 it says after 62 wks the Messiah is cutoff. So unto (7wks +62wks) Messiah has to be his arrival in Jerusalem, hailed as the messiah.

And the Messiah cutoff, before the 70th week begins in v27.

 

[jeffweedaman]

The point I am making is the 7wks + 62wks are unto the Messiah.

Then in v26 it says after 62 wks the Messiah is cutoff. So unto (7wks +62wks) Messiah has to be his arrival in Jerusalem, hailed as the messiah.

And the Messiah cutoff, before the 70th week begins in v27.

Messiah was not cut off before he shed his blood for our atonement.

24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,
to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy
and to anoint the most holy place.

Atonement ( forgiveness of sin) would be realized in 70 weeks according to the text.
You have Jesus accomplishing it in 69 weeks.

Jesus has already taken away the sins of the whole world . All anyone needs to do is to repent for the consequences of sin to disappear forever and be filled with the everlasting righteousness that is in Christ.

It has clearly finished.




Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

 

[Gundy22]

well I unsnapped his skullcap
between his ears I saw a GAP
and figgered he'd be allright

-Springsteen

 

[Douggg]

Messiah was not cut off before he shed his blood for our atonement.

24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,
to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy
and to anoint the most holy place.

Atonement ( forgiveness of sin) would be realized in 70 weeks according to the text.
You have Jesus accomplishing it in 69 weeks.

Jesus has already taken away the sins of the whole world . All anyone needs to do is to repent for the consequences of sin to disappear forever and be filled with the everlasting righteousness that is in Christ.

It has clearly finished.




Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

It is not 70wks determined upon Jesus. The 70wks are determined up Daniel's people and Jerusalem to embrace Jesus and the gospel of salvation.

The Jews as a whole and Jerusalem have yet to embrace Jesus and the gospel of salvation... which is proof that the 70wks are not complete.

 

[jeffweedaman]

It is not 70wks determined upon Jesus.

Without the shedding of blood ( his blood ) there is no remission of sin...no forgiveness of sin. This is what Daniel was praying for and the answer of the ages was given , being the anointed Messiah would come after 7 and 62 weeks and atone in the 70th week.


[ Quote Doug -
The 70wks are determined up Daniel's people and Jerusalem to embrace Jesus and the gospel of salvation.]


Amen. Its living and active already isnt it?

 

[Timtofly]

The 7 years and the 62 years are not gaps. This is an invalid argument.

They are sections of time. Of course they are not gaps. The gaps are between the first 49 years and the re-start of the walls. Then a gap after the 434 years. Then a gap in the 7 years because Christ only had a 3.5 year ministry, and was cut off. Then after Christ returns, after the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders, is the week long celebration of the 7th Trumpet. There is a gap in the last week of the last year. Then Satan gets 42 months, and while the 2 witnesses lay dead for 3.5 days, that is the last 3.5 days of the appointed time. The 7 vials are poured out if Satan gets those 42 months, as judgment on the desolation of that last week.

Then Armageddon is the last hour when the 10 kings reign one hour. The last hour of the 490 years is the battle of Armageddon.

"even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

All of Adam's sinful flesh is destroyed, and is no more. No one is going to be resurrected into Adam's sinful flesh ever again, period! Yet Death is the last enemy. Death by disobedience will not be defeated until the end of the 1000 years. Not because of Adam's sinful flesh. But disobedience against the iron rod that will destroy (by Death) any one who deliberately disobeys Christ. Their name will be removed from the Lamb's book of life, and they will be placed in Death. That is the difference between sheol and Death. Both have souls in them. Death contains souls not found in the Lamb's book of life. Death is introduced in the 4th Seal.

The church is gone at the 6th Seal, and Christ will commence His remaining time on earth, that God has shortened, for the elects sake. That is why God and Gabriel do not define the 70th week. It is not even going to be a full 7 years. Each second the 6th Seal is not opened increases the time the church has to gather a harvest, and the last 3.5 years get shorter and shorter.