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Daniel 9:26 "people of a prince one coming"

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by LittleLambofJesus, May 26, 2019.

  1. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Who is the people and prince symbolizing in Dan 9:26.
    Discuss.

    JPS Tanakh 1917
    And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    Daniel 9:26:
    And after<310> the sevens<620> sixty<8346 and two<8147> shall be cut off<3772> an anointed-one<4899> and there is nothing<369> to-him and the city<5892> and the sanctuary<6944> he shall ruin<7843>, people<5971> of ruler/chief<5057>, the one-coming<935> and end of him<7093> in-overflowing<7858> and until<5704> end<7093> war<4421> being decided<2782> ones being desolate<8074>
    ==============
    Some commentaries:

    Benson Commentary

    And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city, &c. — Thus to the death of Christ the angel immediately subjoins the excision of Jerusalem. The people here spoken of are the Romans, and the prince that should come, may mean, as some think, the Messiah; the Romans being called his people, both on account of their present subserviency to his will, and their future conversion to his faith; HE sent forth HIS armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city, Matthew 22:7. Or, the prince that should come may be understood of Titus Vespasian, of whom the Roman writers speak as if his military glory chiefly resulted from the taking of Jerusalem. “The actions of this prince, in the conduct of this memorable siege, are related in the fifth and sixth books of Josephus; the most tragical event in history was effected by a prince whose clemency made him ‘the delight of human-kind,’ and who saw, with generous reluctance, the horrors of his own victory. — Jos., 7:5. 2. It is thus Divine Providence distinguishes its counsels and instruments; and the victor himself acknowledged that ‘God was his assistant, that none but God could have ejected the Jews from so strong fortifications,’ Josephus Daniel 6:9. 1. They shall destroy the CITY and the SANCTUARY — The specification is remarkable; as Jerusalem, in effect, sustained two separate sieges; one, of the lower city; the other, of the temple, or sanctuary of strength, as our prophet elsewhere styles it, chap. Josephus Daniel 11:31, as being not only a magnificent temple newly rebuilt, but a strong fortress, which was consumed by their own fires, against the intention and efforts of their conqueror. — Josephus Daniel 6:4, 7.” The end thereof shall be with a flood — The symbol of invading armies:

    — — Aggeribus ruptis cum spumeus amnis Exiit, oppositasque evicit gurgite moles, Fertur in arva furens cumulo, camposque per omnes, Cum stabulis armenta trahit. VIRG. ÆN. 2:496.

    Not with so fierce a rage the foaming flood Roars, when he finds his rapid course withstood; Bears down the dams with unresisted sway, And sweeps the cattle and the cots away. DRYDEN.

    Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

    the people of a prince that shall come] viz. against the land, the verb being used in the same hostile sense which it has in Daniel 1:1, Daniel 11:13; Daniel 11:16; Daniel 11:21; Daniel 11:40-41. The allusion is to the soldiery of Antiochus Epiphanes, who set Jerusalem on fire, and pulled down many of the houses and fortifications, so that the inhabitants took flight, and the city could be described as being ‘without inhabitant, like a wilderness’ (1Ma 1:31-32; 1Ma 1:38; 1Ma 3:45)—‘people’ being used as in 2 Samuel 10:13, Ezekiel 30:11, &c., of a body of troops. On the treatment which the Temple received at the same time, see above on Daniel 8:11.

    Matthew Poole's Commentary

    The people of the prince that shall come; the Romans under the conduct of Titus Vespantianus. Some will include Christ’s people here, whom he should chiefly gather out of the Roman empire, should ruin that church, and polity, and worship. Desolations are determined; God hath decreed to destroy that place and people by the miseries and desolations of war, i.e. sword, famine, sickness, scattering. All this is signified by

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; that is, the people of the Romans, under Vespasian their prince, emperor, and general, should, in a little time after the cutting off of the Messiah, enter into the land of Judea, and destroy the city of Jerusalem, and the temple that stood in it; though some understand this of Messiah the Prince that should come in his power, and in a way of judgment upon the Jewish nation, and destroy them for their rejection of him; whose people the Romans would be, and under whose direction, and by whose orders, all these judgments should be brought upon the Jews; but many of the Jewish writers themselves interpret it of Vespasian, as Aben Ezra, Jarchi, Abarbinel, and Jacchiades:

    and the end thereof shall be with a flood: the end of the city and temple, and of the whole nation, should be by the Roman army, which, like a flood, would overspread the land, and carry all before it.

    Barnes' Notes on the Bible

    "And the people of the prince that shall come." Margin, "And they (the Jews) shall be no more his people; or, the Prince's (Messiah's) future people." This seems to be rather an explanation of the meaning, than a translation of the Hebrew. The literal rendering would be, "and the city, and the sanctuary, the people of a prince that comes, shall lay waste." On the general supposition that this whole passage refers to the Messiah and his time, the language used here is not difficult of interpretation, and denotes with undoubted accuracy the events that soon followed the "cutting off" of the Messiah. The word "people" (עם ‛am) is a word that may well be applied to subjects or armies - such a people as an invading prince or warrior would lead with him for purposes of conquest. It denotes properly

    (a) a people, or tribe, or race in general; and then
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
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  2. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I've not found a commentary that addresses that question specifically - but it seems that there are two schools of thought regarding this passage. One attributes the 70th week to the antichrist and the other attributes the entire 70 weeks to our Lord.

    In addition to the commentaries you already shared, I wanted to add this one by Ralph Woodrow:

    Quoting Ralph Woodrow-------->
    From the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem unto Messiah was to be 483 years. When this time was fulfilled, those who knew this prophecy, were expecting the appearance of the Messiah, that is, the Christ. (Christ is the Greek form of the Hebrew word Messiah.) Thus when John came baptizing, “the people were in EXPECTATION, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ or not” (Lk. 3:15). John plainly told them that he was not the Christ —he was only the forerunner. When Jesus appeared on the scene, John cried: “Behold the Lamb of God”! The time had now come that Jesus should be “made manifest to Israel” (John 1:29 31). He was then baptized and when he had prayed, “the heaven was opened. And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased” (Lk. 3:21,22).

    He had appeared to Israel right on time! Thus Jesus, in evident reference to the time prophecy of Daniel, said: “The TIME is fulfilled” (Mk. 1:15) and as the Messiah, the Christ, the “anointed one”, he preached the gospel. When he entered the synagogue of Nazareth, he announced: “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because he hath ANOINTED me” (Lk. 4:18-22). Acts 4:27 mentioned Jesus as the “holy” one that the Lord “ANOINTED.” And Peter mentioned that “God ANOINTED Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost… who went about doing good, healing all who were oppressed of the devil” (Acts 10:38).

    Daniel’s prophecy revealed that the time period unto the Messiah would be 69 weeks (483 years). This measured to the time when Jesus was baptized and anointed to begin his ministry as the Messiah, the Christ, the “Anointed One.

    4. MESSIAH WAS TO BE CUT OFF. The 69 weeks (7 plus 62) were to measure unto Messiah “and AFTER” the 69 weeks “shall Messiah be cut off.” Now “AFTER” 69 weeks does not and cannot mean “in” or “during” the 69 weeks! If Messiah was to be cut off AFTER the 69 weeks, there is only one week left in which he could have been “cut off”—the 70th week! —after three and a half years of ministry.

    The term “cut off” implies that Messiah would not die a natural death; he would be murdered! So also had Isaiah prophesied using an equivalent word: “He was cut off out of the land of the living” (Isaiah 53:8).

    The details about how Messiah was “cut off” are given in the gospels.

    5. “TO FINISH THE TRANSGRESSION”, or literally, “to finish transgression.” As Jesus was dying, he cried: “It is FINISHED.” At Calvary, Jesus finished transgression by becoming sin for us. No future sacrifice can ever finish transgression; it was finished at Calvary (Heb. 9:15). “He was wounded for our TRANSGRESSIONS” (Isaiah 53:5).

    6. “TO MAKE AN END OF SINS.” Here the basic thought is repeated. If we understand the glorious significance of what was accomplished at Calvary, we know that here there was truly an end made of sins.

    Jesus, who came “to save his people from their sins”, accomplished this when he “put away sin by the sacrifice of himself” (Mt. 1:21; Heb. 9:26). “It is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins… But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever…hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified…And their sins… remember no more” (Heb. 10:4-11). The old system of sacrifices could never make an end of sins, but Christ—by the sacrifice of himself—did make an end of sins, even as the prophecy had said!

    John announced him as “the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world” (John 1:29). “Christ died for our sins” (1 Cor. 15:3). He “bare our sins in his own body on the tree” (l Peter 2:24) and “hath once suffered for sins” (3:18). “He was manifested to take away our sins” (l John 3:5). This “end of sins” was accomplished at Calvary.

    All of this does not mean, of course, that right at this point men quit sinning. This was not the case. But what the scripture does mean is that at Calvary the eternal sacrifice for sin was made, so that any and all—past, present, or future —who will be forgiven of sins will be forgiven because our Lord’ s death almost 2,000 years ago made an “end of sins”!

    7. “TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR INIQUITY.” The word reconciliation used here is the same word that is used so frequently in the book of Leviticus where it is rendered “to make atonement.” This, too, was part of our Lord’s redemptive work. Surely “reconciliation” is a present reality—because of Calvary!

    Jesus, “our merciful and faithful high priest” made “RECONCILIATION for the sins of the people” (Heb. 2:17). “Having made peace through the blood…to RECONCILE all things unto himself…and you, that were sometimes alienated…hath he RECONCILED…through death” (Col. 1:20-22; Eph. 2:16).

    “God was in Christ, RECONCILING the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of RECONCILIATION” (2 Cor. 5:19). Plainly, “reconciliation for iniquity” was accomplished by Jesus, for he “gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all INIQUITY” (Titus 2:14), and “the Lord hath laid on him the INIQUITY of us all” (Isaiah 53:6).

    8. ”TO BRING IN EVER LASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS.” This too was accomplished by the redemptive work of Christ! The great redemption chapter of Isaiah 53 had prophesied: “My righteous servant shall make many RIGHTEOUS.” Paul put it this way: “By the righteousness of one…shall many be made RIGHTEOUS… unto eternal life by Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:17-21). He who came “to fulfill all righteousness” (Mt. 3:15) and who “loved righteousness, and hated iniquity”, was “anointed” of God (Heb. 1:9) and made unto us wisdom, and RIGHTEOUSNESS, and sanctification, and redemption” (1 Cor. 1:30). “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto RIGHTEOUSNESS” (1 Peter 2:24). “Even the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God…through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood to declare his RIGHTEOUSNESS for the remission of sins” (Rom. 3:21-26). “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God in him” (2 Cor. 5:21). “Everyone that doeth RIGHTEOUSNESS is born of him” (1 John 2:29).

    Taking all of these verses into consideration, we ask: Did Christ in his coming to earth provide righteousness through his redemptive work? All Christians acknowledge that he did. We ask then: Was not this righteousness that he brought in everlasting? Of course. Surely no Christians would deny that the righteousness of Christ is “everlasting righteousness.”

    “By his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained ETERNAL REDEMPTION “—everlasting righteousness—” for us” (Heb. 9:12). This eternal or everlasting righteousness is contrasted to the old sacrifices under the law which were only of a temporary nature. But Christ, once for all time, offered himself—thus providing, as the prophecy of Daniel had said, “everlasting righteousness.”

    One only has to read the great redemption passages of Romans, Corinthians, Colossians, Ephesians, and Hebrews to see how an “end” of transgressions and sins, “reconciliation for iniquity”, and “everlasting righteousness” were all accomplished at Calvary by our Lord Jesus Christ!

    In view of this, we see no basis for the futurist teaching that none of these things have yet been fulfilled, but are to be linked with a supposed seventieth week at the end of the age! To teach such is contradictory and tends to take away from the glory of that great redemption of Calvary which so beautifully and completely fulfilled these prophecies!

    9. “TO SEAL UP VISION AND PROPHECY”, or literally, “to seal up vision and prophet.” The use of the metaphor “to seal” is derived from the ancient custom of attaching a seal to a document to show that it was genuine (See 1 Kings 21:8; Jer. 32:10, 11; cf. John 6:27; 1 Cor. 9:2). Christ “sealed” Old Testament prophecy by fulfilling what was written of him.

    Repeatedly we read concerning him: “…that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets.” Acts 3:18 says: “Those things which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer he hath so fulfilled:” Truly Jesus fulfilled what was written in the visions and prophecies of the Old Testament concerning him, and thus he “sealed” them—showed that they were genuine. ‘They are they”, he said, “which testify of me” (John 5:39). “All the prophets and the law prophesied until John” (Mt. 11:13), then John presented Jesus as he that was to be “made manifest to Israel.” Jesus was the one that was to come—and we look for none other. He is the fulfillment of vision and prophecy.

    10. “HE SHALL CONFIRM THE COVENANT.” When Jesus instituted the Lord’ s supper, representative of his shed blood for the remission of sins, he said: ‘This is my blood of the new testament [covenant], which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Mt. 26:28). The word “testament” here and the word “covenant” are translated from exactly the same word in the New Testament. “How much more shall the blood of Christ…purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament [covenant]” (Heb.9:14,15).

    <snipped for space>

    With Adam Clarke we say: “The whole of this prophecy from the times and corresponding events has been fulfilled to the very letter.” (Clarke’s Commentary, note on Daniel 9) ~ Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Association
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  3. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    I actually have posts on Daniel 9:24, 25, 26

    Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?
    Daniel 9:26


    people<5971> of ruler/chief/prince<5057> the one-coming<935>
    5971 `am am from 6004; a people (as a congregated unit); specifically, a tribe (as those of Israel);
    5057 nagiyd naw-gheed' or nagid {naw-gheed'}; from 5046; a commander (as occupying the front), civil, military or religious; generally (abstractly, plural), honorable themes:--captain, chief, excellent thing, (chief) governor, leader, noble, prince, (chief) ruler.
    935 bow' bo a primitive root; to go or come (in a wide variety of applications):--abide, apply, attain, X be, befall, + besiege, bring (forth, in, into, to pass),

    Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
    H5057
    נָגִיד (nagiyd), occurs 44 times in 44 verses

    Used in just 6 verses of the Major Prophets [3 of those in Daniel]

    Isa 55:4
    Indeed I have given him as a witness to the people,
    A leader<5057> and commander for the people.
    Jer 20:1
    Now Pashhur the son of Immer, the priest who was also chief governor<2057> in the house of the LORD, heard that Jeremiah prophesied these things.
    Eze 28:2
    “Son of man, say to the prince<5057> of Tyre, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:
    “Because your heart is lifted up, And you say, ‘I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods, In the midst of the seas,’
    Yet you are a man, and not a god, Though you set your heart as the heart of a god

    Last times used:

    Dan 9:25
    “Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command
    To restore and build JerusalemUntil Messiah the Prince,
    There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street[fn] shall be built again, and the wall,[fn] Even in troublesome times.
    26
    “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
    And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
    The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

    Dan 11:22
    “With the force of a flood they shall be swept away from before him and be broken, and also a prince<5057> of a covenant.
    ============================
    I am beginning to be of the view that the great war in Daniel 11 may be symbolizing the 1st century Jewish wars and Armageddon in Revelation. Haven't really looked into this........

    Daniel 10:1

    In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a revelation was given to Daniel (who was called Belteshazzar). Its message was true and it concerned a great war. The understanding of the message came to him in a vision.
    ==============================
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

    Matthew 24:6
    “Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
    but not as yet the End<5056>

    John 11:48
    "If ever we may be letting Him thus, all shall be believing into Him, and shall be coming the Romans and they shall be taking away of Us and the Place and the Nation."

    https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
    "..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
    ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM


    History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived ; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations, but especially such as are favoured with the light and blessings of REVELATION

    CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

     
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
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  4. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Woodrow endorses the understanding with which I concur, and which I encapsulate below, to wit, that the prince throughout the passage is Messiah, exclusively.


    There is only one individual identified as a prince in Daniel 9.

    It is Messiah. (Daniel 9:25)

    The people of the prince (Daniel 9:26) refers to the Roman armies which were Messiah's agents and instruments to accomplish the judgment and destruction which He had prophesied. God's use of such instruments, and His characterization of them as "mine" even though pagan, can be found in several OT instances e.g.:

    Jeremiah 25
    9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the Lord, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

    Jeremiah 43
    10 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will send and take Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will set his throne upon these stones that I have hid; and he shall spread his royal pavilion over them.

    God characterizes the pagan Nebuchadnezzar as "my servant" in using him and his armies against Judah and Egypt.

    In the same way as Nebuchadnezzar, though a pagan, was God's servant in executing His judgment, so too were the pagan Roman armies Messiah's people in accomplishing His purposes.

    In addition, the Jews themselves, as the historical people of Prince Messiah, were equally responsible for the destruction and suffering. Their own actions in defiling and destroying the buildings and temple prior to the Roman invasion are described by Josephus:

    The Lamentation of Josephus
    War 5.1.4 19-20


    The darts that were thrown by the engines [of the seditious factions] came with that force, that they went over all the buildings and the Temple itself, and fell upon the priests and those that were about the sacred offices; insomuch that many persons who came thither with great zeal from the ends of the earth to offer sacrifices at this celebrated place, which was esteemed holy by all mankind, fell down before their own sacrifices themselves, and sprinkled that altar which was venerable among all men, both Greeks and barbarians, with their own blood. The dead bodies of strangers were mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of the priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses stood in lakes in the holy courts themselves.
    Oh most wretched city, what misery so great as this didst thou suffer from the Romans, when they came to purify thee from thy internal pollutions! For thou couldst be no longer a place fit for God, nor couldst thou longer survive, after thou hadst been a sepulchre for the bodies of thine own people, and hast made the Holy House itself a burying-place in this civil war of thine. Yet mayst thou again grow better, if perchance thou wilt hereafter appease the anger of that God who is the author of thy destruction.

    As seen, Josephus recognizes the Jews as complicit agents of their own destruction, and that destruction as Divinely orchestrated.

    Contemporary Jewish historians concur:
    "The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure, and the Temple's destruction, was due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Yoma 9b). While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted."


    The people, both Roman and Jewish, of the prince Messiah who was to come, were Messiah's agents and instruments in accomplishing His purposes of judgment and destruction upon those who had rejected Him.

    "Antichrist" is unseen, unsaid, and unknown, either explicitly or implicitly, within the passage. The word "antichrist" or an equivalent was nonexistent in the ancient Hebrew language.
     
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  5. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Thank you posting those other resources mkgal. That agrees with my view also:

    In view of this, we see no basis for the futurist teaching that none of these things have yet been fulfilled, but are to be linked with a supposed seventieth week at the end of the age! To teach such is contradictory and tends to take away from the glory of that great redemption of Calvary which so beautifully and completely fulfilled these prophecies!

    With Adam Clarke we say: “The whole of this prophecy from the times and corresponding events has been fulfilled to the very letter.” (Clarke’s Commentary, note on Daniel 9) ~ Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Association
     
  6. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    A few more resources:

    Daniel 9’s “cut off” Messiah. Part One: A Jewish scholar clarifies the main terms

    Part One: A Jewish scholar clarifies the main terms
    by Damien F. Mackey

    And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed

    Daniel 9:26
    Introduction Daniel’s famous prophecy of the Seventy Weeks
    “has been”, according to J. Paul Tanner, “
    one of the most notorious interpretive problem passages in Old Testament studies
    ” (“IS DANIEL’S
    SEVENTY-WEEKS PROPHECY MESSIANIC?”).
    Many see this prophecy as referring to Jesus Christ the Messiah, his Death and Resurrection, and thereby regard it as a most important piece of chronology for dating the era of Jesus Christ, based on Daniel 9:25: “ …
    from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks …”.
    That is, 434 years (for the “sixty-two weeks”)

    IS DANIEL'S SEVENTY-WEEKS PROPHECY MESSIANIC? PART 2

    CONCLUSION
    The seventy-weeks prophecy in Daniel 9:24–27 is one of the most significant messianic passages in all the Old Testament. A survey of interpretations for this passage by early church fathers reveals that this passage was overwhelmingly understood as a messianic passage. This has also been the traditional view of biblical com-mentators throughout the centuries. While one is not surprised that critical scholars in more recent centuries have rejected the messianic view (dating Daniel late and interpreting it in light of the Maccabean period), it is surprising to find some notable evan-gelical scholars rejecting the messianic view. However, the historic view of the church rests on solid exegeti-cal ground from which one need not retreat. The j"yvim; in verses 25 and 26 is best understood as referring to the eschatological Mes-siah, the greater Son of David. If Cyrus or some high priest were in view, the verses would no doubt have been phrased differently. Furthermore the link of this passage with Daniel 7:13–14 and the Son of Man suggests that this promised Ruler is undoubtedly in view. This is further confirmed by the goals set forth in 9:24, especially that of bringing in “everlasting righteousness.” In the Old Testament prophets this is the expected accomplishment of the Messiah as part of His kingdom blessings, as repeatedly seen in Isaiah. Those who object to the messianic interpretation have argued that the position of the Hebrew punctuation marker
    ’atna-
    between the numbers in verse 25 demands that the “anointed one” of that verse must come after only seven “weeks” of years following the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, not after sixty-nine “weeks.” Yet a closer examination of the Hebrew
    ’atna-˙
    indicates that this need not be the case, because the
    ’atna-
    can be used in ways other than indicating a full disjunction. Furthermore the late addition of this punctuation marker (long after the first centuryA.D.) calls into question how reliable this marker is, since it was not part of the original text and therefore was not inspired. Some reject the messianic view by viewing the numbers sym-bolically, since the numbers seven and seventy were sometimes spiritualized in apocalyptic literature. However, Daniel’s prayer in 9:4–19 was based on his expectation of exile for a literal seventy years. The divine response to his prayer was that an
    extended pe-riod of God’s chastening on the nation would transpire not in sev-enty years, but in seventy times seven years. If the first period of the Exile was literal, one should expect the extended chastisement to be literal also. Even early Jewish views of Daniel, both before and after
    A.D. 70, followed a literal understanding of the years in-volved. Daniel 9:24–27 is a glorious messianic revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ, announcing among other things the time of His com-ing and His death before the cataclysmic events of A.D. 70. The pas-sage remains a bedrock of prophetic revelation
     
  7. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    I can't help but think most of Daniel is talking about the 1st leading up to 70ad.
    The North would have consisted of Gentiles/Israelites while the South would be the Jews of Judea/Jerusalem.
    Daniel 9:26:
    And after<310> the sevens<620> sixty<8346 and two<8147> shall be cut off<3772> an anointed-one<4899> and there is nothing<369> to-him and the city<5892> and the sanctuary<6944> he shall ruin<7843>, people<5971> of ruler/chief<5057>, the one-coming<935> and end of him<7093> in-overflowing<7858> and until<5704> end<7093> war<4421> being decided<2782> ones being desolate<8074>


    Note a great war being mentioned, which could possible be the great Jewish War in Israel in the 1st century?

    Dan 10:1

    In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a revelation was given to Daniel (who was called Belteshazzar). Its message was true and it concerned a great war. The understanding of the message came to him in a vision.

    Dan 11:20
    “His successor will send out a tax collector to maintain the royal splendor. In a few years, however, he will be destroyed, yet not in anger or in battle.
    Dan 11:25
    “With a large army he will stir up his strength and courage against the king of the South.
    The king of the South will wage war with a large and very powerful army, but he will not be able to stand because of the plots devised against him.
    ========================
    Matthew 24:6
    “Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
    but not as yet the End<5056>

    Mark 13:7
    “Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled for is binding to be becoming,
    but not as yet the End<5056>

    Luke 21:9
    “Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tumults<181>, no may be being frightened<4422>, for is binding these to be becoming,
    but not immediately the End<5056>
    ====================================
    This could be referring to the Jewish Rebels/Zealots during 70ad?
    Dan 8:23
    “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.
    Hos 5:2
    The rebels are knee-deep in slaughter. I will discipline all of them.

    https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
    CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

    CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

    Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
    Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
    Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
    Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
    Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
    Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
    Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10,7
    ===============
    The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

    While Jerusalem was a prey to these ferocious and devouring factions, every part of Judea was scourged and laid waste by bands of robbers and murderers, who plundered the towns; and, in case of resistance, slew the inhabitants, not sparing either women or children. Simon, son of Gioras, the commander of one of these bands, at the head of forty thousand banditti, having with some difficulty entered Jerusalem, gave birth to a third faction, and the flame of civil discord blazed out again, with still more destructive fury.
    The three factions, rendered frantic by drunkenness, rage, and desperation, trampling on heaps of slain, fought against each other with brutal savageness and madness. Even such as brou't sacrifices to the temple were murdered. The dead bodies of priests and worshipers, both natives and foreigners were heaped together, and a lake of blood stagnated in the sacred courts.
    John of Gischala, who headed one of the factions, burnt storehouses full of provisions ; and Simon, his great antagonist, who headed another of them, soon afterwards followed his example. Thus they cut the very sinews of their own strength.
    At this critical and alarming c onjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman army was approaching the city. The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear ; there was no time for counsel, no hope of pacification, no means of flight:-- all was wild disorder and perplexity :- nothing was to be heard but "the confused noise of the warrior, " -- nothing to be seen but garments rolled in blood," -- nothing to be expected from the Romans but signal and exemplary vengeance. A ceaseless cry of combatants was heard day and night, and yet the lamentations of mourners were still more dreadful. The consternation and terror which now prevailed induced many inhabitants to desire that a foreign foe might come, and effect their deliverance. Such was the horrible condition of the place when Titus and his army presented themselves, and encamped before Jerusalem ; but, alas ! not to deliver it from its miseries but to fulfill the prediction, and vindicate the benevolent warning of our Lord : "When ye see (he had said to his disciples) the abomination of desolation, spoken or by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place, [11] and Jerusalem surrounded by armies (or camps,) then let those who are in the midst of Jerusalem depart, and let not those who are in the country enter into her," for " then know that the desolation thereof is nigh." Matt. xxiv. 15, 21 ; Luke xxi. 20, 1-11. These armies, we do not hesitate to affirm were those of the Romans, who now invested the city. From the time of the Babylonian captivity, idolatry had been held as an abomination by the Jews. This national aversion was manifested even against the images of their gods and emperors, which the Roman armies carried in their standards ; so that, in a time of peace, Pilate, and afterwards Vitellius, at the request of some eminent Jews, on this account avoided marching their forces throu' Judea. Of the desolating disposition which now governed the Roman army, the history of the Jewish war, and especially of the final demolition of the holy city, presents an awful and signal example. Jerusalem was not captured merely, but, with its celebrated temple, laid in ruins. Lest, however, the army of Titus should not be sufficiently designated by this expression, our LORD adds, "Wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together." Matt. xxiv. 28. The Jewish state, indeed, at this time, was fitly compared to a carcass. The sceptre of Judah, i . e . its civil and political authority, the life of its religion, and the glory of its temple, were departed. It was, in short, morally and judicially dead.

    The eagle, whose ruling instinct is rapine and murder, as fitly represented the fierce and sanguinary temper of the Romans, and, perhaps, might be intended to refer also to the principal figure on their ensigns, which, however obnoxious to the Jews, were at length planted in the midst of the holy city, and finally on the temple itself.
    ===============================
     
  8. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Compelling historical evidence.

    To counter the futurist and his folly.
     
  9. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi LLOJ,

    You ask an often asked question by those studying the prophecies of God's word. Why do some believe that the weeks are divided? That 69 of the weeks will flow one from the other and yet the final week may have some gap of time between its beginning and the ending of the previous 69.

    So that all may follow, here's the applicable passage in Daniel's writing:

    Therefore, consider the word and understand the vision: “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. ”

    We are told initially that seventy sevens are decreed. This means to us that this passage of time has been already established and set in God's plan for Israel's existence upon the earth. We know it is Israel because the angel tells Daniel that it is about 'your' people. There are then several issues that the angel says that Israel needs to attend to in this seventy sevens of time.

    The angel then encapsulates 69 of the sevens to occur before Messiah comes. He tells him to know and understand that from the going out of a particular decree, until Messiah comes, there will have passed 69 of the sevens. Now, we come to the final week of sevens, but this final week is divided by quite a lot that goes on before the angel comes back to finish up the things that will happen in this final week.

    We are told that at the end of the 69 sevens the 'Anointed one' will be put to death. That there will be the people of the ruler to come who will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Now, for me, it's very difficult to reconcile that this 'people of the ruler who will come' that will destroy the city and the sanctuary, is speaking of Jesus being that ruler who will come. Further, I think we're pretty sure that it wasn't Jesus' followers who destroyed the city or the sanctuary. History records that it was a Roman occupation and siege that destroyed Jerusalem and brought about the 'not one stone upon the other' prophecy of Jesus concerning the temple. It doesn't seem to be portrayed in the Scriptures that the believers in Jesus, which Paul and the other apostles were building up as they traveled throughout the land, ever got together to destroy any city or sanctuary.

    Then the prophecy continues, speaking of the end coming like a flood and desolations that have been decreed, (remember that means something that has already been established by God). Then the angel begins talking about this final seven. That there will be some sort of covenant, and the pronoun would seem to point to the same 'he' whose people destroyed the city and the sanctuary.

    This same 'he' is then going to set up an 'abomination' that leads to 'desecration'. I have a very, very hard time understanding that this reference is to something that Jesus had done or, according to the Scriptures, is going to do. Jesus claimed to have had a very, very high regard and reverence for the things of God upon the earth. While he railed at how wrong the Jewish leaders were in following and teaching the people to follow the things of God, he was fairly upset that the house of God should be turned into a den of thieves. I honestly can't imagine that the people of Jesus were the ones to come and destroy the city and the sanctuary. I similarly have a difficult time reconciling that it is the people of Jesus, or Jesus himself, that is going to establish this 'abomination that leads to desolation'.

    So, the prophecy seems to pretty clearly separate the 69 weeks and all that is going to happen throughout their passage, culminating in the death of the anointed one, and the final 70th week. The angel explains a lot that is going to be going on before he draws Daniel's attention to the 70th week.

    God bless,
    In Christ, ted
     
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  10. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    HI again LLOJ,

    As I was rereading my post, I am encouraged to add one more point that might substantiate this idea of a division of time between the 69th and the 70th week. According to the Scriptures, the 69 weeks end in the death of the 'anointed one'. Would you agree that the 70th week starts after Jesus' death?

    The reason I ask is that a lot of those who think that there is no separation, explain that the covenant and the 3.5 years when an end is made of sacrifice and offering, that is explained as going on in the 70th week, is the life of Jesus' ministry and then his death. But I don't see how that chronology is possible if Jesus died at the end of the 69 weeks. The prophecy doesn't seem to allude, at least to me, that Jesus' death actually comes at 72.5 weeks. Which is what it would actually be if he didn't die until after the 69 weeks and in the middle of the final 7 weeks.

    Further, the things that are foretold to us will be happening between the end of the 69 weeks and before the final 7 weeks come to pass; the ruler to come and his people destroying the city and the sanctuary, and wars and rumors of war, and setting up the abomination that leads to desolation didn't come to pass in those specific 7 years. There is no evidence that within 3.5 years of Jesus' death or 3.5 years after Jesus' death, or seven years after Jesus' death, that any of those things took place. If the final seven weeks immediately followed the 69 weeks, then we should expect to be able to point to events that happened that fulfill those prophetic words.

    I mean, when God's word tells us that something is going to happen, it isn't of much value to us if we don't see the evidence that such a thing did actually happen. Generally, as we look back over history and attempt to reconcile any prophecy of God, we always are able to point to the fulfillment of that prophecy in the historical record. This is how we can know that one prophecy has been fulfilled and yet another may not have been yet. We can't find anything to support the prophecy as happening upon the earth, if the prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.

    This is what I see in the angel's explanation to Daniel of the 70th week. When I look at the historical record and try to find the things that we are told are going to be happening in the final week, if it is to follow directly after the 69, then I don't think anyone can point to any historical record that shows that within the 7 year period that immediately followed Jesus' death, that the things told to Daniel did happen. The destruction of the city and the sanctuary by the Romans didn't happen for another 35-40 years. Yet the prophecy seems to be pretty clear that this happened before, or at least during, the final seven year period. There's just no way, knowing and accounting that the first 69 actually were 69-7 year periods, that followed one right after the other, culminating in Jesus' death just as the prophecy foretells, that the next set of 7 years, immediately following Jesus' death holds any of the promise of the prophecies foretold to be happening within that 7 year period.

    God bless,
    In Christ, ted
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
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  11. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi LLOJ,

    So, to bring my purpose and point to a close. For those who do believe that there isn't any evidence that the things the prophecy tells us will be happening, either immediately before or during the final 7 weeks, hasn't happened yet; in other words we can't point to anything within the next 7 years after Jesus' death that matches the foretellings of the prophecy, then we have to understand that there is a separation between the 69 and the final 7. Even if we go out to 70 A.D.'s destruction of the city and the sanctuary, there still had to be a separation between the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week. There's a period of some 35-40 years between Jesus' death and the destruction of the city and the temple in 70A.D.

    Those people believe that this final 7 years is yet to come.

    God bless,
    In Christ, ted
     
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