Daniel 9:24 fulfillment

[A71]

Wow. That is a thesis.

Very well stated, and worth discussing and absorbing, if you don't mind my saying.

Let me gather my thoughts

 

[A71]

I think you have really hit the nail on the head. I like it a lot Parousia. I wholly agree with virtually everything you have said. I am not sure I wholly agree with the last bit:

This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global. The church always was the covenanted Israel, the church continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).

I am not sure Judaism is the right term.

 

[A71]

I guess I am really at the Hercule Poirot moment of tying up a few loose ends.

The Law itself is not dead, so in what way is it still alive?
Has the Law been completely fulfilled?

 

[BABerean2]

No real proof of that.

There were Gentiles among the early Church at Antioch per Galatians 2 when Peter quit sitting with the Gentiles at table when his Jewish brethren from Jerusalem came to visit.

Once Christ was rejected at Jerusalem, He was preached to both israelite and Gentile, and both together became the Christian Church.

Based on the following there was a period of about seven years when the Gospel was taken first to the Israelites, before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.


Mat 10:5　 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:　
Mat 10:6　 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.　
Mat 10:7　 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.　



Gal 1:14　 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.　
Gal 1:15　 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,　
Gal 1:16　 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:　
Gal 1:17　 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.　
Gal 1:18　 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.　

.

 

[Davy]

Based on the following there was a period of about seven years when the Gospel was taken first to the Israelites, before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.


Mat 10:5　 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:　
Mat 10:6　 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.　
Mat 10:7　 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.　



Gal 1:14　 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.　
Gal 1:15　 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,　
Gal 1:16　 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:　
Gal 1:17　 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.　
Gal 1:18　 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.　

.

Jesus sent out His disciples at the first, DURING HIS MINISTRY ON EARTH, to preach The Gospel to only Israel. That's the timing of Matt.10 verses.

But then after... His death and resurrection Jesus sent His disciples to preach The Gospel to all... nations (Mark 16:15).

 

[claninja]

Jesus sent out His disciples at the first, DURING HIS MINISTRY ON EARTH, to preach The Gospel to only Israel. That's the timing of Matt.10 verses.

But then after... His death and resurrection Jesus sent His disciples to preach The Gospel to all... nations (Mark 16:15).

They didn't go to all nations right after his death and resurrection. They stuck with preaching to Jews for quite awhile. It wasn't until Acts 10, that peter realized he could associated with Gentiles. It's interesting to note that Jesus gave the great commission at the end of Matthew, and yet peter didn't know until much later, after his vision from God, that he could actually associated with gentiles.

Acts 10:28
While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.

 

[A71]

The thing I am driving at Parousia is that there were survivors from Jerusalem, ( about 1/10th according to Josephus) and out of this remnant egg, Judaism presumably was hatched.

 

[BABerean2]

Jesus sent out His disciples at the first, DURING HIS MINISTRY ON EARTH, to preach The Gospel to only Israel. That's the timing of Matt.10 verses.

But then after... His death and resurrection Jesus sent His disciples to preach The Gospel to all... nations (Mark 16:15).

And when did they start?

Except for Peter preaching to the house of Cornelius, and Philip preaching to the eunuch, can you give any evidence to show that there was a massive effort to take the Gospel to the Gentiles before the ministry of Paul?

.

 

[Davy]

And when did they start?

Except for Peter preaching to the house of Cornelius, and Philip preaching to the eunuch, can you give any evidence to show that there was a massive effort to take the Gospel to the Gentiles before the ministry of Paul?

.

Why? Is there something about this Mark 16 Scripture you don't like?

Mark 16:14-15
14 Afterward He appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen Him after He was risen.

15 And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
KJV

 

[A71]

I am not saying that this is definitely correct, but it is what I am seeing right now. That is this.

Really physical and spiritual Israel are not two separate entities, but one entity. So rather than physical Israel being like a shuttle booster that was discarded, I think physical and spiritual Israel have always been one. When Christ came, he simply changed the scope of Israel. Because the House of Israel had been scattered in the world, all the world then became Israel, at least those of faith in the world. So physical Israel did not vanish, it metamorphosed to become all.

In this context we see God say:

Jeremiah 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation ('people' would be a better translation I think) before me for ever.

It means that regardless of the tribal identities being lost, God still keeps a record. This is not a Jew first thing. God regards all Israel. However the Jews are not forgotten, and I think (personally) that they are brought in last. So because he regards all Israel, he also remebers the Jews.

 

[claninja]

I am not saying that this is definitely correct, but it is what I am seeing right now. That is this.

Really physical and spiritual Israel are not two separate entities, but one entity. So rather than physical Israel being like a shuttle booster that was discarded, I think physical and spiritual Israel have always been one. When Christ came, he simply changed the scope of Israel. Because the House of Israel had been scattered in the world, all the world then became Israel, at least those of faith in the world. So physical Israel did not vanish, it metamorphosed to become all.

In this context we see God say:

Jeremiah 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation ('people' would be a better translation I think) before me for ever.

It means that regardless of the tribal identities being lost, God still keeps a record. This is not a Jew first thing. God regards all Israel. However the Jews are not forgotten, and I think (personally) that they are brought in last. So because he regards all Israel, he also remebers the Jews.

I agree with a lot of this. How I see it ultimately is that Christ is the true heir of the eternal promises of God:

Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.
Galatians 3:16

Christ is the heir and because we are Christ’s body, then we are heirs. And Christ’s body is made of many members of all nations, languages, and ethnics. The true Israel is the body of Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
Galatians 3:28-29

Without Christ we inherit nothing. We inherit nothing apart from the body of Christ. Not even the Old Testament saints could inherit the eternal promises apart from the body of Christ:

And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us (church) they (OT saints) should not be made perfect.
Hebrews 11:39-40

 

[BABerean2]

Why? Is there something about this Mark 16 Scripture you don't like?

Mark 16:14-15
14 Afterward He appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen Him after He was risen.

15 And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
KJV

No. I love it.

I am simply asking when did they earnestly begin the ministry to the Gentiles?

Why don't you try to answer the question?

.

 

[parousia70]

The thing I am driving at Parousia is that there were survivors from Jerusalem, ( about 1/10th according to Josephus) and out of this remnant egg, Judaism presumably was hatched.

Was it? Perhaps.... but regardless it is not Biblical Judaism that was hatched then. That ended in 70AD.

Post Christian Judaism is non covenental. It was not delivered by God and is not honored by God with ANY covenant relationship and was not started by any "Remnant" in the Biblical sense of the term.

The presumably thousands of non believing, NON REMNANT Jews who survived AD70 went into captivity as slaves, separated from their families and assimilated into the surrounding pupulations and cultures.

Which is why All of Humanity today has some Abrahamic DNA in us...

Its not that there are no more genetic Jews, its that we ALL are genetic Jews today.

The Remnant remains those who Follow Messiah.

I am not sure I wholly agree with the last bit:

This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global. The church always was the covenanted Israel, the church continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).

I am not sure Judaism is the right term.

Ok, switch Judaism with Israel.

The Sole Surviving Covenanted Israel today is what the Sole Surviving Covenanted Israel has ALWAYS BEEN, namely, the Church.

 

[jgr]

I am not saying that this is definitely correct, but it is what I am seeing right now. That is this.

Really physical and spiritual Israel are not two separate entities, but one entity. So rather than physical Israel being like a shuttle booster that was discarded, I think physical and spiritual Israel have always been one. When Christ came, he simply changed the scope of Israel. Because the House of Israel had been scattered in the world, all the world then became Israel, at least those of faith in the world. So physical Israel did not vanish, it metamorphosed to become all.

In this context we see God say:

Jeremiah 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation ('people' would be a better translation I think) before me for ever.

It means that regardless of the tribal identities being lost, God still keeps a record. This is not a Jew first thing. God regards all Israel. However the Jews are not forgotten, and I think (personally) that they are brought in last. So because he regards all Israel, he also remebers the Jews.

Temporal ethnic Israel ceased to be a nation in 70 AD, and the 1948 reincarnation was born of political subterfuge and terrorism. Thus it does not qualify as the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:36. Yet from the very beginning, and over that more than 1800 year interval, and right up to the present; the faithful believing spiritual remnant has survived. It is thus the only "nation" (1 Peter 2:9) that qualifies as the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:36.

 

[A71]

Temporal ethnic Israel ceased to be a nation in 70 AD, and the 1948 reincarnation was born of political subterfuge and terrorism. Thus it does not qualify as the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:36. Yet from the very beginning, and over that more than 1800 year interval, and right up to the present; the faithful believing spiritual remnant has survived. It is thus the only "nation" (1 Peter 2:9) that qualifies as the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:36.

Not according to God.The seed of Israel has never ceased from being a people in his eyes. That means what we know ( recorded genealogies) is irrelevant. He knows who the seed of Israel are and they remain so.

 

[A71]

There is no such thing as Biblical 'Judaism' to my knowledge. Judaism seems to be a variety of things. Jerusalem is the mother of false doctrines.

The belief systems are irrelevant, God's covenants are with the houses of Israel, of Judah and Jerusalem, (the Levites).

'

Was it? Perhaps.... but regardless it is not Biblical Judaism that was hatched then. That ended in 70AD.

Post Christian Judaism is non covenental. It was not delivered by God and is not honored by God with ANY covenant relationship and was not started by any "Remnant" in the Biblical sense of the term.

The presumably thousands of non believing, NON REMNANT Jews who survived AD70 went into captivity as slaves, separated from their families and assimilated into the surrounding pupulations and cultures.

Which is why All of Humanity today has some Abrahamic DNA in us...

Its not that there are no more genetic Jews, its that we ALL are genetic Jews today.

The Remnant remains those who Follow Messiah.



Ok, switch Judaism with Israel.

The Sole Surviving Covenanted Israel today is what the Sole Surviving Covenanted Israel has ALWAYS BEEN, namely, the Church.

 

[A71]

@Parousia
Jesus differentiated between the unbelief of bog-standard Judaism and the pure unadultarated evil of Talmudic Judaism when he discussed child abuse:

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

 

[Davy]

No. I love it.

I am simply asking when did they earnestly begin the ministry to the Gentiles?

Why don't you try to answer the question?

.

I did answer your question. You should... have been well satisfied with that Mark 16 Scripture where Jesus after His death and resurrection told His Apostles to go preach to "every creature".

It sounds like you're assuming immediately after that time it not possible that there were disciples also made of Gentiles like the Ethiopian which were not recorded in Scripture. I don't care to limit our Lord Jesus and The Gospel with a blanket generalization and say no such thing could have happened.

 

[parousia70]

The belief systems are irrelevant, God's covenants are with the houses of Israel, of Judah and Jerusalem, (the Levites).

And when those people break the covenants, And God says by doing so, they are “cut off from among the people” that means what?

That They aren’t really cut off?

 

[A71]

The template is the House Of Israel, who were decovenanted, which is why the House of Judah post the Assyrian removal of Israel, became Israel. However the House of Israel was not forgotten. They were regathered when Christ came, as Israel.

The same process applies now to the House of Judah. They are decovenanted, but God has not forgotten his seed. This is why Paul enjoins the Church, and in particular the House of Israel, to be merciful to Judah in the way God was merciful to them.