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Daniel 9:24-27 Can of worms

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by dmac5, Apr 14, 2003.

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  1. LastDazed

    LastDazed New Member

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    Are you a universalist?
     
  2. LastDazed

    LastDazed New Member

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    Please show from scripture this "Mystery period" that fills the supposed "gap" between the 1st and 2nd half of week 70.

    Please show anywhere in Daniels prophesy any mention of the Abomination of Desolation ocourring in that time period known as the "70 weeks".

    You appear to be mixing prophesies without scriptural justification for doing so.

    Daniels 70 weeks and Daniels "Time of th End" do not overlap.
    They are seperate, distinct prophesies.

    The 70 weeks ended with the stoning of Stephen and the freeing of the gospel to the gentiles, 3.5 years after the cross.
    No Gaps, no gimmicks needed.
    The 70 years in exile were consecutive,
    the 70 weeks were as well.

    In fact, nowhere in scripture is there any evidence that when God places a specific time frame on a prophesy's fulfillment, it isn't consecutive days, years hours, etc.

    3 days = 3 consecutive days
    6 days = 6 consecutive days
    40 days & nights = 40 consecutive days and nights
    40 years in the desert was 40 consecutive years in the desert.

    so goes all prophetic time.
    Gods word is true, it can be trusted.
     
  3. Idzerd VanDellen

    Idzerd VanDellen New Member

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    John 12:19
    So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!"


    I suppose that the Pharisees did NOT intend to communicate that absolutley every single person without exception had "gone after" Jesus.

    In other words, Scripture's use of "the world" does not necessarily denote "absolutley every single person without exception."

    So, no, I am not a universalist...

    ...I'm worse, I'm a calvinist. ;)

    Idzerd
     
  4. dmac5

    dmac5 New Member

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    Dazed posed some good questions and I will try to deal with them here.

    First, what is the mystery?

    <SUP>Ephesians 3:1</SUP> For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, <SUP>2</SUP> If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: <SUP>3</SUP> How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, <SUP>4</SUP> Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) <SUP>5</SUP> Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; <SUP>6</SUP> That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: <SUP>7</SUP> Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. <SUP>8</SUP> Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; <SUP>9</SUP> And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: <SUP>10</SUP> To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, <SUP>11</SUP> According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    The mystery is the church which is built during a period of time that I would term the church age.

    When does the church age occur?&nbsp; It occurs between Jesus' death and the end of the 1260 days of tribulation.&nbsp; Revelation 10:7 - But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the <B>mystery</B> of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    A further word search on the word "mystery" in the New Testament will shed more light.

    Now let's deal with Daniel's 70 weeks.&nbsp; Here are the verses from Daniel 9;

    <SUP>24</SUP> Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    Verse 24 is an overview of what will occur during the 70 weeks.&nbsp; This vision concerns the Jewish people and the nation of Israel proper.

    <SUP>25</SUP> Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    Now we start with the timeline.&nbsp; When was the going forth of the commandment and who gave it?&nbsp; The command was given by King Cyrus&nbsp;about 453BC, located in Ezra chapter 6; <SUP>3</SUP> In the first year of Cyrus the king the same Cyrus the king made a decree concerning the house of God at Jerusalem, Let the house be builded, the place where they offered sacrifices, and let the foundations thereof be strongly laid; the height thereof threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof threescore cubits;

    How long did the temple take to build?

    John2:<SUP>19</SUP> Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. <SUP>20</SUP> Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

    It should be noted that Darius first made the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, but the Jews started building their houses first, so there was a slight delay in starting the temple.&nbsp; The start of the timeline in the verse says;

    that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:

    So we see two timeframes here, seven weeks and 62 weeks.&nbsp; These being weeks of years for a total of 49 years and 434 years.&nbsp; The city and the temple were finished in the 49 year timeframe.&nbsp; There is then 434 years until Messiah the prince.&nbsp; Messiah the Prince was revealed to Israel at His baptism&nbsp;as it is written;

    John1:<SUP>31</SUP> And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

    The baptism occurred when Jesus was 30 as it is written;

    <SUP>Luke 3:22</SUP> And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. <SUP>23</SUP> And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,&nbsp;&nbsp;

    At the baptism of Jesus, the 7 weeks, plus the 62 weeks were complete.&nbsp; There remains then one week to be completed.&nbsp; On to verse 26.

    <SUP>26</SUP> And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    Jesus ministry, from baptism to the cross, was 3.5 years long.&nbsp; After the 62 weeks, He is cut off(crucified).&nbsp; Jesus' complete mission is stated in Issiah 61;

    <SUP>1</SUP> The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; <SUP>2</SUP> To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; <SUP>3</SUP> To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

    Jesus stated His own mission in Luke 4;

    <SUP>16</SUP> And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. <SUP>17</SUP> And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, <SUP>18</SUP> The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, <SUP>19</SUP> To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. <SUP>20</SUP> And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down.

    If you look closely, Jesus stopped reading halfway through the passage in Issiah, exactly where Jesus would be "cut off" on the cross.&nbsp; What He did not read would be fulfilled in the second half of the 70th week.&nbsp; What He did not read is below;

    and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; <SUP>3</SUP> To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

    There remains then a 3.5 year period to be completed.&nbsp; The period of time between the two halves is the church age/mystery period that was hidden from the OT prophets, which I quoted at the beginning of this post, but am placing it here for your perusement;

    &nbsp;Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; <SUP>6</SUP> That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

    Continued in next post
     
  5. dmac5

    dmac5 New Member

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    Now onto verse 27.

    <SUP>27</SUP> And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


    The "He" that is confirming the covenant is Jesus confirming/fulfilling the covenant for one week, or 7 years.&nbsp; The proof is below;

    Romans 15:8 - Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the <B>promises</B> made unto the fathers:

    In 70AD, after the crucifixion and resurrection, God sent the Roman army into Jerusalem and wiped it out, because of the idolatry, rejection of the Messiah, etc.&nbsp; To this day, there is no temple in Jerusalem, and there will not be until Jesus returns.&nbsp; The phrase " and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate" can be interpreted as "and that determined shall be poured upon the desolator".&nbsp; Or in other words until that determined shall be poured upon the one who sets up the abomination of desolation.

    The last 3.5 years is the time of Jacob's trouble/tribulation as listed in the following verses;

    Daniel 12:7 - And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a <B>time, times</B>, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

    Daniel 7:25 - And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the <B>dividing of time</B>.

    Revelation 11:2 - But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two <B>months</B>.

    <INPUT id=cmdGotoFromSearch6 type=image height=14 alt="Go to Scripture" width=12 src="http://www.bibleontheweb.com/images/doc.jpg" border=0 name=cmdGotoFromSearch6> <B>Revelation 13:5</B> - And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two <B>months</B>

    Revelation 12:6 - And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore <B>days</B>.

    As stated in a prior verse, the church age/mystery period ends with the sounding of the 7th trump, when the 1260 days are over.&nbsp; There are then 75 more days until Jesus returns physically to end the battle of Armageddon.&nbsp; The first 30 days of the 75 is the period of the vials of wrath, and the last 45 days is Armageddon.&nbsp; You will find that there is a dividing of these time frames in the verses below;

    <SUP>Dan12:11</SUP> And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. <SUP>12</SUP> Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. <SUP>13</SUP> But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

    Undoubtedly, you will ask, why is there a need for a period of time between the two halves of the week.&nbsp; Therefore, here is the reason;

    Romans 11:25 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that <B>blindness</B> in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    The blindness will be lifted from Israel at the Lord's coming here;

    <SUP>Zechariah 14:1</SUP> Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. <SUP>2</SUP> For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. <SUP>3</SUP> Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. <SUP>4</SUP> And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. <SUP>5</SUP> And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. <SUP>6</SUP> And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: <SUP>7</SUP> But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. <SUP>8</SUP> And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. <SUP>9</SUP> And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

    &nbsp;Zechariah 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

    <SUP>Zechariah 12:9</SUP> And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. <SUP>10</SUP> And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. <SUP>11</SUP> In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.


    Romans 11:26 - And so <B>all Israel</B> shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    Jesus will be crowned king of Israel, indeed the entire earth at His coming, as it is written;

    &nbsp;Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

    &nbsp;Zephaniah 3:15 - The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the <B>king of Israel</B>, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

    And in that day shall verse 24 in Daniel 9 be complete which states;

    and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
     
  6. dmac5

    dmac5 New Member

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    And, for those who take issue with two separate things going on at the same time, the church and Israel, take a look at the following;

    &nbsp;

    Micah5:&lt;SUP&gt;1&lt;/SUP&gt; Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek. &lt;SUP&gt;2&lt;/SUP&gt; But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. &lt;SUP&gt;3&lt;/SUP&gt; Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. &lt;SUP&gt;4&lt;/SUP&gt; And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. &lt;SUP&gt;5&lt;/SUP&gt; And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. &lt;SUP&gt;6&lt;/SUP&gt; And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.

    &nbsp;

    In particular, this piece;

    Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

    &nbsp;

    The "them" that are given up, is the nation if Israel, which as a whole, rejected their Messiah.&nbsp; They are given up, at least in one place in Acts 28:28.

    They will be given up until she that travails gives birth.&nbsp; The she is the woman in Revelation 12.&nbsp; This woman is the church, giving birth to the firstfruits, the 144,000 who follow the Lamb wherever He goes.&nbsp; Once they are taken, the time of Jacob's trouble begins, which is the last 3.5 years of the 70 weeks in Daniel.&nbsp; When day 1335 arrives, after the setting up of the AoD, Jesus will return and rescue Israel, and the following will occur;

    then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.
     
  7. ephod

    ephod Member

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    Christian
    .
     
  8. dmac5

    dmac5 New Member

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    You are correct Ephod, I should have said, Israel, for the most part.
     
  9. LastDazed

    LastDazed New Member

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    &nbsp;

    How then would you reconcile that to Ephesians 3:21?

    "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout&nbsp;ALL ages, world without end. Amen.


    How, in your theology,&nbsp;can there be Glory unto Christ in the Church throughout all ages?

    &nbsp;
     
  10. dmac5

    dmac5 New Member

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    What I am stating is that there is a limited time for a person to become part of the church.&nbsp; That time limit is from birth to death, individually, and from the time of Jesus' baptism, until the 7th trumpet, corporately.&nbsp;

    You asked;

    How, in your theology,&nbsp;can there be Glory unto Christ <B>in the Church</B> throughout <B>all ages</B>&nbsp;

    &nbsp;&nbsp;

    1 Corinthians 3:16 - Know ye not that ye are the <B>temple</B> of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

    <INPUT id=cmdGotoFromSearch9 type=image height=14 alt="Go to Scripture" width=12 src="http://www.bibleontheweb.com/images/doc.jpg" border=0 name=cmdGotoFromSearch9> <B>1 Corinthians 3:17</B> - If any man defile the <B>temple</B> of God, him shall God destroy; for the <B>temple</B> of God is holy, which <B>temple</B> ye are.

    <INPUT id=cmdGotoFromSearch10 type=image height=14 alt="Go to Scripture" width=12 src="http://www.bibleontheweb.com/images/doc.jpg" border=0 name=cmdGotoFromSearch10> <B>1 Corinthians 6:19</B> - What? know ye not that your body is the <B>temple</B> of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

    &nbsp;

    Exodus 40:35 - And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and <B>the glory of</B> the LORD filled the tabernacle.

    &nbsp;<B>1 Kings 8:11</B> - So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for <B>the glory of</B> the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.

    <INPUT id=cmdGotoFromSearch5 type=image height=14 alt="Go to Scripture" width=12 src="http://www.bibleontheweb.com/images/doc.jpg" border=0 name=cmdGotoFromSearch5> <B>2 Chronicles 5:14</B> - So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for <B>the glory of</B> the LORD had filled the house of God.

    <INPUT id=cmdGotoFromSearch6 type=image height=14 alt="Go to Scripture" width=12 src="http://www.bibleontheweb.com/images/doc.jpg" border=0 name=cmdGotoFromSearch6> <B>2 Chronicles 7:1</B> - Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and <B>the glory of</B> the LORD filled the house.

    <INPUT id=cmdGotoFromSearch7 type=image height=14 alt="Go to Scripture" width=12 src="http://www.bibleontheweb.com/images/doc.jpg" border=0 name=cmdGotoFromSearch7> <B>2 Chronicles 7:2</B> - And the priests could not enter into the house of the LORD, because <B>the glory of</B> the LORD had filled the LORD's house.



    The temple has no glory of itself, but derives its glory from what fills it.&nbsp;

    &nbsp;

    Your verse was this;

    Unto him be glory <B>in the church</B> by Christ Jesus <B>throughout&nbsp;ALL ages</B>, world without end. Amen.

    Unto who be glory?&nbsp; God

    Glory where?&nbsp; In the church.

    How does this glory come to be, or from where does it come? Jesus Christ

    Neither God, Jesus, nor the church cease to exist just because the window of opportunity to be part of the mystery(the church) is closed.&nbsp; God manifests His glory in Christ, who is manifest in and through the church.&nbsp; The church is the New Jerusalem, and the new Jerusalem is the wife of the lamb.

    &nbsp;

    Now I have a question for you.&nbsp; Read the following from Rev21;

    <SUP>26</SUP> And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. <SUP>27</SUP> And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

    This refers to the new heavens/new earth period.&nbsp; If sin is completely gone, why make a statement like this, about this period of time?
     
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