Daniel 9:24-25 Seventy Weeks, A Future Literal 490 Day Period

[jgr]

Ok, at least you answered....lol

hmmm. Tough question.

I would say that a Jew is someone who follows Judaism. Of course Judaism is a lot of things. But I would say the core element that unifies all branches of Judaism is the rejection of Christ as king of Israel.

A genetic Jew would be someone who has a Jewish patrilineage. DNA tests map maternal and paternal lines with great accuracy actually, so theoretically, there may come a time when all the filial scions of Judah can be identified. At present no such test exists, so only God would know that information.

If an unbeliever embraces and practises Judaism, does God recognize him as a Jew under His criteria?

According to the articles, the Abrahamic genome is ubiquitous in the planetary human population, which is entirely expected after 4000 years of interbreeding. So ethnicity is not a distinction criterion to God.

Nor was it ever. God has always accepted those who enter into relationship with Him by faith and obedience, irrespective of ethnicity. (Acts. 10:34-35)

And He did not refrain from slaying "purebred" Israelites by the thousands in the exodus when they disbelieved, disobeyed, and rebelled.

 

[A71]

In fairness JGR, your answer was very good, although:
4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You shall be the ancestor of a multitude of nations. 5 No longer shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be Abraham;

The Abrahamic Covenant and Promises are quite complex.....and without a good refresh I also get quite confused.

 

[A71]

If an unbeliever embraces and practises Judaism, does God recognize him as a Jew under His criteria?
For me this is tautology; Judaism is unbelief

According to the articles, the Abrahamic genome is ubiquitous in the planetary human population, which is entirely expected after 4000 years of interbreeding. So ethnicity is not a distinction criterion to God.
That is good, but tribal identity is defined by paternity, and nothing else

Nor was it ever. God has always accepted those who enter into relationship with Him by faith and obedience, irrespective of ethnicity. (Acts. 10:34-35)
This is too simplistic

And He did not refrain from slaying "purebred" Israelites by the thousands in the exodus when they disbelieved, disobeyed, and rebelled.
Indeed

God uses the Jews for a very special purpose. Really they glorify Christ.

 

[jgr]

In fairness JGR, your answer was very good, although:
4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You shall be the ancestor of a multitude of nations. 5 No longer shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be Abraham;

The Abrahamic Covenant and Promises are quite complex.....and without a good refresh I also get quite confused.

Thanks, typo.

You're not alone, A71, I don't have all the answers. But I always gravitate to 2 Corinthians 1:20 and Hebrews 1:1-2, and others, which define the promises in New Covenant spiritual terms, with Christ as the Heir, and we in Christ as joint heirs. And the New Covenant spiritual promises, which redefine the Old Covenant carnal promises in spiritual terms, are "better" (Hebrews 8:6).

 

[jgr]

God uses the Jews for a very special purpose. Really they glorify Christ.

But you still haven't defined "Jews". What are the identification criteria?

 

[A71]

hmm.
Well for me, a Jew is someone who rejects Christ as King Of Israel.

and I think similar for God maybe. Those who rejected his son are who he calls Jews, I think.......

but there are good figs and bad figs......good Jews and bad Jews.

 

[A71]

Ok, I'll try again.

A Jew is someone from the tribe of Judah.

How's that?

 

[jgr]

hmm.
Well for me, a Jew is someone who rejects Christ as King Of Israel.

and I think similar for God maybe. Those who rejected his son are who he calls Jews, I think.......

OK, so that would be a practitioner of Judaism. But how can someone who denies the Son, and therefore does not have the Father either; glorify the Son? (1 John 2:23)

 

[A71]

OK, so that would be a practitioner of Judaism. But how can someone who denies the Son, and therefore does not have the Father either; glorify the Son? (1 John 2:23)

Because the Jews are an accursed, homeless, dispossessed people who wander the earth causing trouble, some stealing money and being known for usury, and being very hated, and when we look at them, which was what God intended, we go:
"Wow, that is what happens when you murder the Son Of God - that Jesus guy must have been the real deal. 2000 years have passed and God is still mad at them"

 

[jgr]

Because the Jews are an accursed, homeless, dispossessed people who wander the earth causing trouble, stealing money and stuff, and being very hated, and when we look at them, which was what God intended, we go:
"Wow, that is what happens when you murder the Son Of God - that Jesus guy must have been the real deal. 2000 years have passed and God is still mad at them"

(i'm not sayin all Jews are thieves....far from it. But they are very prevalent in usury)

How does that glorify the Son?

 

[A71]

It shows Christ to be Christ.

 

[A71]

And God even says that this is how he uses the Jews:

Rom 9:17
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

 

[jgr]

And God even says that this is how he uses the Jews:

Rom 9:17
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Dunno...I know I'd give the Son more glory in seeing a previous Christ-rejector turn his back on his previous life and come to Christ...

 

[Quasar92]

Ok, I see the underlying problem you have.

The Old Covenant was a schoolmaster really. Before Christ came it kept the Israelites in a group. Awaiting Christ. After Christ came, the law was superseded, and became irrelevant to people of Faith.

However, God cursed the Jews for their refusal to accept Christ, and therefore they remain under a curse, the curse being the Law.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law

The Jews are still under the Law. The only way they can come out from under the Law is to accept Christ.

How is it that God picked Israel as His chosen people? and how then does that equate into all the other nations of the earth somehow have Jewish blood in them, as you would try having us believe. Does Ishmael have some Jewish blood in Him too?

Quasar92

 

[A71]

I think you are confusing me with another poster Quasar.
To clarify:
A Jew in practice is anyone who follows Judaism. Literally it is anyone with patrilineage traceable back to Judah.

The reason why all the world became Israel is described in Ephesians 3; remember Gentiles really means all the nations of the world, (aside from Israel).

3 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

'Of the same body' means of Israel.

 

[A71]

Dunno...I know I'd give the Son more glory in seeing a previous Christ-rejector turn his back on his previous life and come to Christ...

This is entirely scriptural. But even from a practical point, it is obvious.
The most talked about tribe on earth is the Jews.
People talk about all the horrendous things that happen to them. They have special status.
The Jews problems all go back 2000 years. This is because they are under a curse.
But even to the layman, they are in big trouble because they murdered God.
All these things make us aware that:
1) God is God, and not to be messed with
2) Jesus was the Son Of God, and not some provincial celebrity or minor prophet. Effectively they keep Jesus in focus, 2000 years on. Think about it for a few minutes.

Imagine now if the Jews turn and accept Jesus - imagine what a witness that would send to the world, NOW!!

 

[jgr]

Imagine now if the Jews turn and accept Jesus - imagine what a witness that would send to the world, NOW!!

I certainly agree. If every practising Judaist were to do so, it would be an astonishing spectacle.

But they will not, and only a remnant will be saved. (Romans 9:27).

Some of what you suggest would occur if even one or two high profile Judaists would publicly turn to Christ. But I can't think of even one qualifying example. Perhaps you can.

That remnant may be lamentably small.

 

[A71]

But that is referring to first century events, namely the obliteration of Jerusalem and Judea
“Though the number of the children of Israel were like the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute his sentence on the earth quickly and decisively.”
The remnant are the 100,000 or so recorded by Josephus who came out of the siege of Jerusalem, and were then sold into slavery.

 

[jgr]

But that is referring to first century events, namely the obliteration of Jerusalem and Judea
“Though the number of the children of Israel were like the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute his sentence on the earth quickly and decisively.”
The remnant are the 100,000 or so recorded by Josephus who came out of the siege of Jerusalem, and were then sold into slavery.

Hmm...interesting observation that hadn't occurred to me. Let me investigate that.

I would agree that what Isaiah records relates to a temporal event i.e. the Assyrian exile. Yet the context of the verses surrounding Romans 9:27 sounds more spiritual to me i.e. the inclusion of the Gentiles and their attainment of righteousness, the stumbling of Israel. Then in Romans 10, the chapter begins immediately with Paul's desire and prayer for Israel's salvation, a reference to the unsaved outside of the saved remnant, a spiritual context consistent with the end of chapter 9.

I also don't perceive futurization; Paul appears to be describing the prevailing situation.

So this appears, to me, to be the spiritualization of Isaiah's temporal event.

Just my take on it. But I found yours intriguing, and as an historicist, worthy of consideration as well.

 

[BABerean2]

But that is referring to first century events, namely the obliteration of Jerusalem and Judea
“Though the number of the children of Israel were like the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute his sentence on the earth quickly and decisively.”
The remnant are the 100,000 or so recorded by Josephus who came out of the siege of Jerusalem, and were then sold into slavery.

All of those sold into slavery after the siege of Jerusalem were not saved by becoming a part of the New Covenant Church, and having their soul "saved".

God saved the children of Israel from the army of Egypt, at the Red Sea.
However, many of those same people were swallowed by the earth during Korah's rebellion against Moses.
Those people swallowed by the earth went to hell.

The passage above is related to Romans 9:6, and Romans 9:8.

It is speaking of being "saved" eternally.

The "time of the judgment of the dead" found in Revelation 11:18, is when the Lord will execute His "sentence" on the earth.

.