Daniel 2, 7, & 8 Illustration - how does one support that Daniel 8 is Antiochus Epiphanes

[Adventist Heretic]

any thoughts

 

[tall73]

any thoughts

I have now watched all the videos as of last night and thought some more on it. Have you watched all the videos?

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Alright, first to summarize. He sees two distinct visions given to Daniel in chapter 8. One of them he notes is essentially the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9, though he takes a while to get around to say that.

He sees each spoken of by the two different terms for vision, mareh and Chazon.

He sees Chazon as being the whole thing, and mareh as being the first part, which of course, follows traditional Adventist understanding of the 2,300 days.

But the evidence for this is quite underwhelming. He indicates vs. 1-14 relates the chazon, then in verse 15 we see the introduction of the mareh.

Dan 8:15 When I, Daniel, had seen the vision, I sought to understand it. And behold, there stood before me one having the mareh of a man.

Of course most just translate this as appearance, because this is how it is used in other contexts. But he asserts it is a vision. If it is a vision none of the details of that vision are given at all, nothing of what he sees, other than "of a man". This is to say the least a weak spot in this view, since he claims it contains a lot more than that. Nor is it called a second vision.

And then he says the interpretation of that 2nd vision, the mareh is verse 20-25. That makes little sense because verse 20-25 explain the basic players of the first vision, just as we see in Daniel 7, etc. And the explanation starts with the ram and the goat, etc. rather than "a man".

To get around the implications of a normal reading of verse 26

Dan 8:26 The mareh of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the chazon for it refers to many days from now.”

which would make the mareh refer to the evenings and mornings he says that we have to understand it as

Dan 8:26 The mareh that is part of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the chazon for it refers to many days from now.”

But his explanation of that is not convincing.

Also, he uses a translation that renders "seal up" as "keep secret", but, the vision was not of course kept secret.

Then when we get to chapter 9 it says:

Dan 9:20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my plea before the LORD my God for the holy hill of my God,
Dan 9:21 while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the chazon

Except, he defined the Chazon as vs. 1-14, and Gabriel is not seen there. Daniel had not seen Gabriel in the Chazon, but Gabriel is introduced in vs. 16, which would be after he sees the "mareh" of a man starting.

Dan 8:15 When I, Daniel, had seen the vision, I sought to understand it. And behold, there stood before me one having the mareh of a man.
Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, and it called, “Gabriel, make this man understand the mareh.”

So this would not make sense of the use in chapter 9.

And then in chapter 9:24 he again takes chazon to be not just visions generically, as Adventists often do regarding the coming of Christ, summing up the prophets, but as the chazon of chapter 8 again. And he says that by the end of the mareh it "seals up" the chazon....but Daniel was told to seal it up when it was given, so that doesn't make sense either.

Dan 9:24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both chazon and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

So to sum it up, the whole thing is an attempt to say that the vision of chapter 9 was already related in chapter 8 to dodge the problem of linking the two chapters in the 2,300 days. But I don't see how it makes sense of the uses of the words. And to even attempt to you have to take "the mareh of a man" to be a whole vision that is not related or mentioned as a vision, instead of seeing someone with the appearance of a man. And you have to take "the mareh of the evenings and mornings" as "the mareh which is part of the evenings and mornings" without warrant.

That is my initial take. But I do want to go back through both chapters again looking at the usage of both to see if anything clicks apart from his explanation that was not viable in my opinion. There may be still some significance to the use of the different terms.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

i have watched all of the daniel 8 and 1 of the daniel 9

 

[Adventist Heretic]

I am glad you are looking at this, because it is complicated. I think something is there, but I again i am uncertian about, the desire to say ah ha there is the answer is very great. so i am greatful for the help. I think this is a better attempt then before because he can at least show a connection between the passages with out reading in to or twisting the text. it is actually there.

Side note: I was reading Daniel 9 and saw in the prophecy something about the sanctuary that makes me pause and say maybe there is something in the SDA view " "70 weeks are determined to ..........Anoint the HOLY PLACE." that seem to be what happened at Pentacost. if the holy place and the Church are the same thing. there maybe some weight to it.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

i think there is something there with the Mareh, but it is beyond me. I am not sure what the connection is between the appereance and vision. but there is no Mareh in daniel 2,3,4,5,,6,7, only in daniel 1,8,9 10,11 so there is something there

 

[tall73]

Side note: I was reading Daniel 9 and saw in the prophecy something about the sanctuary that makes me pause and say maybe there is something in the SDA view " "70 weeks are determined to ..........Anoint the HOLY PLACE." that seem to be what happened at Pentacost. if the holy place and the Church are the same thing. there maybe some weight to it.

You are basing this in Rev. 1 with Him walking among the lampstands, which are then interpreted as churches?

Well, that is not the Adventist view. They see the holy place as in heaven. So they wouldn't see the holy place and the church as the same thing.

Now that particular commentator, and some other Adventist commentators, associate the people as the host of heaven. So if that is the part you are referencing, I can see the connection. But they would still see the sanctuary in heaven as bipartite.

Jesus did anoint the most holy place in the sanctuary, as He inaugurated. So that has never been a sticking point for me with the Adventist view. If you are indicating that indicates the people, that is something a bit different.

Though the two are related because Hebrews 9 mentions both the inauguration of the sanctuary and the initiation of the new covenant together. The covenant involved sprinkling the people with blood, etc.

 

[tall73]

i think there is something there with the Mareh, but it is beyond me. I am not sure what the connection is between the appereance and vision. but there is no Mareh in daniel 2,3,4,5,,6,7, only in daniel 1,8,9 10,11 so there is something there

There may be. I agree it appears in those chapters, but not 2, 7, etc.

Although in some cases it appears to be literally the appearance of something. And it could be rendered that way in 15.

I will try to think of some ways to look at it, independent of those videos, with just the terms in their place when I get a chance.

If it turns out to be a linking that would be significant. However, I agree there are a number of factors that need to be explained with any of the views that hold Rome is indicated. And chapter 11 is hugely complicated.

 

[tall73]

i think there is something there with the Mareh, but it is beyond me. I am not sure what the connection is between the appereance and vision. but there is no Mareh in daniel 2,3,4,5,,6,7, only in daniel 1,8,9 10,11 so there is something there

Here is a more traditional Adventist explanation that still looks at the term mareh, but ties it to the 2,300 days, rather than "part of" without warrant:

Thursday: Daniel 8 and 9 - Sabbath School Net

 

[tall73]

Here is another take.

Questions on the book of Daniel Answered

Two words are used for vision in these passages. (Mareh and Chazon) "Chazon" seems to mean a general, or whole symbolic vision. "Mareh" seems to mean a heavenly being is presenting something.

Interestingly Daniel 8:26 read "The vision (mareh) of the evenings and mornings that was given you is true, but seal up the vision (chazon) for it contains the distant future."

When we look at Daniel 8 we can quickly see the first part is given with symbols, but the part dealing with the cleansing of the sanctuary is related by heavenly beings. The angel has already explained most of the vision to Daniel in chapter 8, but concerning the cleansing of the sanctuary he only said it was true, he didn't explain anything.

This view takes the audition of verse 13-14 as the mareh. That is a little strange because it is an audition and not an "appearance". But it does makes sense with the later statement that the mareh of the 2,300 evenings and mornings is referenced.

Dan 8:14 And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”

Now the theory of this argument is that the players in the chazon are explained, but not the elements of the 2,300 days.

The problem with this view is that the mareh is specifically what the voice told Gabriel to explain.

Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, and it called, “Gabriel, make this man understand the mareh

So if you identify the mareh with the audition, or the 2,300 days, then Gabriel was commanded to explain it. And it seems strange to think he did not.

However, in Daniel 9 he gives additional information which further sheds light on the mareh. That has been my view previously that Gabriel did explain the vision, particularly in reference to the players involved. And that the duration was that of the trampling, due to the wording of the question:

For how long is the chazon concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?”

It seems that the question is how long the trampling? How long with the little horn do all these things?

 

[tall73]

The Truth Behind the 2300 Days and 1844 – A Lion Has Roared!

This quite non-traditional Adventist view, but still supportive of the Adventist movement, indicates that they are interchangeable, and notes how this was a weak point in Miller's reasoning, also calls into question 1844 as the beginning of the Day of Atonement, states Jesus went into the MHP at ascension, clearly says Daniel 8 and 9 are separate, but still sees chapter 8 as referring to the completion of the Day of of Atonement (note the beginning) and sees the 2,300 days as ending just at the second coming, so that the little horn actually stops trampling then.

 

[tall73]

https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1043&context=jats

This is not directly related, but is a narrative structure analysis, which could be helpful in deciding whether the assertion in the video that the activities described for the little horn in 9-12 are indeed distinct from those seen in the explanation of 22-25.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

I talked to the pastor to day to touch base with him. he seems like a nice guy said he talked to a Dr Davidson at the seminary and convinced him to accept the view and it has just been published in his new book. so there is a crack of light for an evangelical.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

You are basing this in Rev. 1 with Him walking among the lampstands, which are then interpreted as churches?

Well, that is not the Adventist view. They see the holy place as in heaven. So they wouldn't see the holy place and the church as the same thing.

Now that particular commentator, and some other Adventist commentators, associate the people as the host of heaven. So if that is the part you are referencing, I can see the connection. But they would still see the sanctuary in heaven as bipartite.

Jesus did anoint the most holy place in the sanctuary, as He inaugurated. So that has never been a sticking point for me with the Adventist view. If you are indicating that indicates the people, that is something a bit different.

Though the two are related because Hebrews 9 mentions both the inauguration of the sanctuary and the initiation of the new covenant together. The covenant involved sprinkling the people with blood, etc.

the most holy place, NOOOOOO, the HOLY PLACE. it says in daniel 9 "to anoint the HOLY PLACE" that is the first apartment. if the first apartment is as I say it is then the anointing would be Pentacost and the church / disciples are the holy place.

Look at the anointing of Jesus. He was anointed when the holy spirit fell on Him The church was anointed when the holy spirit fell on it.

 

[tall73]

the most holy place, NOOOOOO, the HOLY PLACE. it says in daniel 9 "to anoint the HOLY PLACE" that is the first apartment. if the first apartment is as I say it is then the anointing would be Pentacost and the church / disciples are the holy place.

Look at the anointing of Jesus. He was anointed when the holy spirit fell on Him The church was anointed when the holy spirit fell on it.

Ok, so you are seeing the MHP as in heaven, but the HP on earth?

 

[tall73]

I talked to the pastor to day to touch base with him. he seems like a nice guy said he talked to a Dr Davidson at the seminary and convinced him to accept the view and it has just been published in his new book. so there is a crack of light for an evangelical.

Which pastor?

Davidson I imagine is Richard Davidson. He was the one who directed me to dissertations, etc. when I went to talk to the seminary bretheren to try to reconcile things.

 

[tall73]

Earlier I posted each instance in the whole text. Now posting just the verses that contain at least one of the terms to see if it is easier to spot something.


Dan 8:1 In the third year of the reign of King Belshazzar a chazon appeared to me, Daniel, after that which appeared to me at the first.

Dan 8:2 And I saw in the chazon and when I saw, I was in Susa the citadel, which is in the province of Elam. And I saw in the chazon and I was at the Ulai canal.

Dan 8:13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, “For how long is the chazon concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?”

Dan 8:15 When I, Daniel, had seen the chazon I sought to understand it. And behold, there stood before me one having the mareh of a man.

Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, and it called, “Gabriel, make this man understand the mareh

Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood. And when he came, I was frightened and fell on my face. But he said to me, “Understand, O son of man, that the chazon is for the time of the end.”

Dan 8:26 The mareh of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the chazon for it refers to many days from now.”

Dan 8:27 And I, Daniel, was overcome and lay sick for some days. Then I rose and went about the king's business, but I was appalled by the mareh and did not understand it.

Dan 9:21 while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the chazon at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice.

Dan 9:23 At the beginning of your pleas for mercy a word went out, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly loved. Therefore consider the word and understand the mareh

Dan 9:24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both chazon and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

https://www.reachinghearts.org/meet-our-pastor from the offical SDA website

 

[tall73]

https://www.reachinghearts.org/meet-our-pastor from the offical SDA website

Ok, that is the pastor who the guy in the video learned from. Was the new book by the pastor or by Davidson? I was unclear on your statement.

 

[tall73]

Trying one more way to look at it. Each clause that refers to one or the other categorized:

Chazon

Dan 8:1 In the third year of the reign of King Belshazzar a chazon appeared to me, Daniel, after that which appeared to me at the first.

Dan 8:2 And I saw in the chazon and when I saw, I was in Susa the citadel, which is in the province of Elam. And I saw in the chazon and I was at the Ulai canal.

Dan 8:13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, “For how long is the chazon concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?”

Dan 8:15 When I, Daniel, had seen the chazon I sought to understand it.

Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood. And when he came, I was frightened and fell on my face. But he said to me, “Understand, O son of man, that the chazon is for the time of the end.”

Daniel 8:26b but seal up the chazon for it refers to many days from now.”

Dan 9:21 while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the chazon at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice.

Dan 9:24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both chazon and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.


Mareh:

Dan 8:15b And behold, there stood before me one having the mareh of a man.

Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, and it called, “Gabriel, make this man understand the mareh

Dan 8:26 The mareh of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true

Dan 8:27 And I, Daniel, was overcome and lay sick for some days. Then I rose and went about the king's business, but I was appalled by the mareh and did not understand it.

Dan 9:23 At the beginning of your pleas for mercy a word went out, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly loved. Therefore consider the word and understand the mareh

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Ok, that is the pastor who the guy in the video learned from. Was the new book by the pastor or by Davidson? I was unclear on your statement.

Davidson accepted his view, said it took him 2 years