Daniel 2, 7, & 8 Illustration - how does one support that Daniel 8 is Antiochus Epiphanes

tall73

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you are really forcing me to think about things I have not even considered, so I will have to get back to you.

Yeah, I am trying to figure it all out as well.

I did have a thought on the beast with 7 head and 10 horns with the 8th apart of the 7th. The 8th could be the UN which in part of the USA. these are persecuting powers of God's people

In Rev 17? I am not sure what all to make of the various kings there.

Do you still see the prostitute as a fallen church based on OT prophet imagery?
To me that still makes sense.
 
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I have mixed feelings on the prostitute. I am unsure if you have correctly identified her. It could be, but I'm not sure. Women have been identified with God's people. But is also identified with paganism. I think revalation gives two different models of womanhood one of that of a bride the other of that of a prostitute. Christ versus the world what Christ wants to take you first for the world wants to take you.
 
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Today I attended a lecture with Dr. Randy Yonker professor of archaeology @ Andrews University. He Talked on Daniel 8 and the parallels between Daniel vision and the vision of Nabonidas. The vision was suppose to be a validation of the regin of Nabonidas, since he was not of royal linage. In the lecture he mentioned a technique that is employed in this vision which is also utilized in Daniel 8. It is a vision with in a vision. Nabonidus is having a vision and it is interrupted by a vision of Nebuchadnezzar. Dr. Yonker pointed out that when a dream is interrupted by another dream the 2nd dream is absolutely true. Well this has ramification for the interpretation. of Daniel 8, The vision (Hazon) is interrupted by the another vision (Mareh). The Hazon & Mareh contiunes in Daniel 9. Dr. Yonkers says that when the Angel come to Daniel in Chapter 9 he says under stand the Mareh. it is referring to only a specific part of Daniel 8. i would like to discuss this a little further
 
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tall73

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Today I attended a lecture with Dr. Randy Yonker professor of archaeology @ Andrews University. He Talked on Daniel 8 and the parallels between Daniel vision and the vision of Nabonidas. The vision was suppose to be a validation of the regin of Nabonidas, since he was not of royal linage. In the lecture he mentioned a technique that is employed in this vision which is also utilized in Daniel 8. It is a vision with in a vision. Nabonidus is having a vision and it is interrupted by a vision of Nebuchadnezzar. Dr. Yonker pointed out that when a dream is interrupted by another dream the 2nd dream is absolutely true. Well this has ramification for the interpretation. of Daniel 8, The vision (Hazon) is interrupted by the another vision (Mareh). The Hazon & Mareh contiunes in Daniel 9. Dr. Yonkers says that when the Angel come to Daniel in Chapter 9 he says under stand the Mareh. it is referring to only a specific part of Daniel 8. i would like to discuss this a little further

Did he give the source for the Nabonidus vision? Was it in the Nabonidus chronicle, or some other source?
 
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tall73

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Today I attended a lecture with Dr. Randy Yonker professor of archaeology @ Andrews University. He Talked on Daniel 8 and the parallels between Daniel vision and the vision of Nabonidas. The vision was suppose to be a validation of the regin of Nabonidas, since he was not of royal linage. In the lecture he mentioned a technique that is employed in this vision which is also utilized in Daniel 8. It is a vision with in a vision. Nabonidus is having a vision and it is interrupted by a vision of Nebuchadnezzar. Dr. Yonker pointed out that when a dream is interrupted by another dream the 2nd dream is absolutely true. Well this has ramification for the interpretation. of Daniel 8, The vision (Hazon) is interrupted by the another vision (Mareh). The Hazon & Mareh contiunes in Daniel 9. Dr. Yonkers says that when the Angel come to Daniel in Chapter 9 he says under stand the Mareh. it is referring to only a specific part of Daniel 8. i would like to discuss this a little further

This highlights the "vision" of the 2,300 days as its own entity. I noted the angel speaking of that as its own vision previously, and the angel says it is true. Though, where he gets the notion that a vision interrupted by another vision makes the second true I don't know. Wouldn't all that Daniel saw be true if it were from God?

Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, and it called, “Gabriel, make this man understand the vision.”
Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood. And when he came, I was frightened and fell on my face. But he said to me, “Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of the end.”

Dan 8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the vision, for it refers to many days from now.”
 
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tall73

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there is some thing on line about it you can google it. i will ask him when I talk to him again,

That would be good to get it in print.

If you relayed it accurately parts of his interpretation differ from Hasel's:

The “Little Horn,” the Heavenly Sanctuary, and the Time of the End: A Study of Daniel - 1844 Made Simple

The question in Daniel 8:13 reads “Until when [is to be/will be] the vision, the continuance, and the transgression causing horror, to make both sanctuary and host a trampling?” A study of use of the word translated vision here, hāzôn, reveals that it refers the vision of the ram, he-goat, and the “little horn,” as its first usages in verses 1-2 clearly indicate. This is crucial for understanding the time span covered by the vision, which includes the entire range of events the prophet was shown in verses 3-12. Contextually and terminologically the term is not limited to the “little horn” period. Though some Bible versions translate it as “the vision of . . .” or “the vision concerning . . .” the Hebrew grammar in the doesn’t allow for that translation. The intended thrust of the question may be understood as, “Until when the vision, [until when] the continuance and the transgression causing horror, [until when] to make both sanctuary and host a trampling?”

The point being that the question of verse 13 is about all the events depicted in Daniel 8:3-12, which means that the 2,300 evenings (and) mornings cover the period all the way from the ram, and the he-goat, through the activities of the “little horn,” to the end of time (vss. 17, 19). This means, first, that the day-year principle must be operating here because a literal 2,300 days couldn’t cover the span of events in the vision, which began early in the ram period (Media-Persia) and extended down to the time of “the end” (v.17).

It’s clear, too, from the structure of the question that the focus of the chapter is on the terminal point of the vision. The emphasis is on the end point of the vision itself. The terminus a quo (“starting point”) and the terminus ad quem (“concluding point”) of the time span of the 2,300 “evenings-mornings” in terms of a particular year is not provided in chapter 8. Emphasis is placed primarily upon what takes place at the end of the time span and beyond in verse 13-14.
 
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This highlights the "vision" of the 2,300 days as its own entity. I noted the angel speaking of that as its own vision previously, and the angel says it is true. Though, where he gets the notion that a vision interrupted by another vision makes the second true I don't know. Wouldn't all that Daniel saw be true if it were from God?

Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, and it called, “Gabriel, make this man understand the vision.”
Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood. And when he came, I was frightened and fell on my face. But he said to me, “Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of the end.”

Dan 8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the vision, for it refers to many days from now.”
it is a cultural construct. in that culture, that is what it ment. it was way of emphasing something true and certian. I don't know how that would translate from the Babylonian Gods, but he said it was something the Babylonian aware of.
 
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That would be good to get it in print.

If you relayed it accurately parts of his interpretation differ from Hasel's:

The “Little Horn,” the Heavenly Sanctuary, and the Time of the End: A Study of Daniel - 1844 Made Simple

The question in Daniel 8:13 reads “Until when [is to be/will be] the vision, the continuance, and the transgression causing horror, to make both sanctuary and host a trampling?” A study of use of the word translated vision here, hāzôn, reveals that it refers the vision of the ram, he-goat, and the “little horn,” as its first usages in verses 1-2 clearly indicate. This is crucial for understanding the time span covered by the vision, which includes the entire range of events the prophet was shown in verses 3-12. Contextually and terminologically the term is not limited to the “little horn” period. Though some Bible versions translate it as “the vision of . . .” or “the vision concerning . . .” the Hebrew grammar in the doesn’t allow for that translation. The intended thrust of the question may be understood as, “Until when the vision, [until when] the continuance and the transgression causing horror, [until when] to make both sanctuary and host a trampling?”

The point being that the question of verse 13 is about all the events depicted in Daniel 8:3-12, which means that the 2,300 evenings (and) mornings cover the period all the way from the ram, and the he-goat, through the activities of the “little horn,” to the end of time (vss. 17, 19). This means, first, that the day-year principle must be operating here because a literal 2,300 days couldn’t cover the span of events in the vision, which began early in the ram period (Media-Persia) and extended down to the time of “the end” (v.17).

It’s clear, too, from the structure of the question that the focus of the chapter is on the terminal point of the vision. The emphasis is on the end point of the vision itself. The terminus a quo (“starting point”) and the terminus ad quem (“concluding point”) of the time span of the 2,300 “evenings-mornings” in terms of a particular year is not provided in chapter 8. Emphasis is placed primarily upon what takes place at the end of the time span and beyond in verse 13-14.
he does something a little different with it. Hasel make a point about the time span being the time of the end, but his conclusion that it is the day-year principle is an obvious jump. he could have said that it was literal days and that they were days of atonement and still get the same effect.
 
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found a teacher c'hazon and mare, the only problem is that he is SDA. do you want me to post it. he explains the connection between daniel 8 & 9 in a way that I have never heard before. it's kinda long and I don't agree with every thing.
 
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Daniel 8 - Angels in the Glen
Daniel 8 Explained – Understanding Daniel’s Visions, Mareh & Chazown – Part 1

Daniel 8 Explained – The 2300-Day Prophecy & the Little Horn Power, the Chazown – Part 2

Daniel 8 Explained – Daniel’s Second Vision, the Mareh & Restoration of the Holy Place – Part 3

The animals of Daniel 8 explained // What do the animals mean in Daniel 8?

Understanding Daniel's Visions, Mareh & Chazown - Daniel 8 Trailer - Bible Prophecy Explained

Daniel 8 verse 9 explained // The four winds of Daniel 8 explained
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t48BZGfjXX8
 
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Daniel 9 Angels in the Glen
Chapter 9 Explained – Review of Daniel Chapter 8 Visions, Mareh & Chazown – Part 1


Daniel Chapter 9 Explained – 70 Weeks of Daniel Explained (Mareh) – Part 2

Daniel Chapter 9 Explained – Timeline for the 70 Weeks of Daniel Explained (Mareh) – Part 3
 
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tall73

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found a teacher c'hazon and mare, the only problem is that he is SDA. do you want me to post it. he explains the connection between daniel 8 & 9 in a way that I have never heard before. it's kinda long and I don't agree with every thing.

It doesn't matter if he is SDA. If he has new information then we can take a look.It may take some time to work through all these.
 
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It doesn't matter if he is SDA. If he has new information then we can take a look.It may take some time to work through all these.
good to see you have the right attitude.
 
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For reference, each instance of "vision" with the underlying term:

Dan 8:1 In the third year of the reign of King Belshazzar a

chazon

appeared to me, Daniel, after that which appeared to me at the first.
Dan 8:2 And I saw in the

chazon

and when I saw, I was in Susa the citadel, which is in the province of Elam. And I saw in the

chazon

and I was at the Ulai canal.
Dan 8:3 I raised my eyes and saw, and behold, a ram standing on the bank of the canal. It had two horns, and both horns were high, but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last.
Dan 8:4 I saw the ram charging westward and northward and southward. No beast could stand before him, and there was no one who could rescue from his power. He did as he pleased and became great.
Dan 8:5 As I was considering, behold, a male goat came from the west across the face of the whole earth, without touching the ground. And the goat had a conspicuous horn between his eyes.
Dan 8:6 He came to the ram with the two horns, which I had seen standing on the bank of the canal, and he ran at him in his powerful wrath.
Dan 8:7 I saw him come close to the ram, and he was enraged against him and struck the ram and broke his two horns. And the ram had no power to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground and trampled on him. And there was no one who could rescue the ram from his power.
Dan 8:8 Then the goat became exceedingly great, but when he was strong, the great horn was broken, and instead of it there came up four conspicuous horns toward the four winds of heaven.
Dan 8:9 Out of one of them came a little horn, which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the glorious land.
Dan 8:10 It grew great, even to the host of heaven. And some of the host and some of the stars it threw down to the ground and trampled on them.
Dan 8:11 It became great, even as great as the Prince of the host. And the regular burnt offering was taken away from him, and the place of his sanctuary was overthrown.
Dan 8:12 And a host will be given over to it together with the regular burnt offering because of transgression, and it will throw truth to the ground, and it will act and prosper.
Dan 8:13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, “For how long is the

chazon

concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?”
Dan 8:14 And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”
Dan 8:15 When I, Daniel, had seen the

chazon

I sought to understand it. And behold, there stood before me one having the

mareh

of a man.
Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, and it called, “Gabriel, make this man understand the

mareh

Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood. And when he came, I was frightened and fell on my face. But he said to me, “Understand, O son of man, that the

chazon

is for the time of the end.”
Dan 8:18 And when he had spoken to me, I fell into a deep sleep with my face to the ground. But he touched me and made me stand up.
Dan 8:19 He said, “Behold, I will make known to you what shall be at the latter end of the indignation, for it refers to the appointed time of the end.
Dan 8:20 As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21 And the goat is the king of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king.
Dan 8:22 As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power.
Dan 8:23 And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise.
Dan 8:24 His power shall be great—but not by his own power; and he shall cause fearful destruction and shall succeed in what he does, and destroy mighty men and the people who are the saints.
Dan 8:25 By his cunning he shall make deceit prosper under his hand, and in his own mind he shall become great. Without warning he shall destroy many. And he shall even rise up against the Prince of princes, and he shall be broken—but by no human hand.
Dan 8:26 The

mareh

of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the

chazon

for it refers to many days from now.”
Dan 8:27 And I, Daniel, was overcome and lay sick for some days. Then I rose and went about the king's business, but I was appalled by the

mareh

and did not understand it.

Chapter 9 relevant portions:

Dan 9:20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my plea before the LORD my God for the holy hill of my God,
Dan 9:21 while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the

chazon

at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice.
Dan 9:22 He made me understand, speaking with me and saying, “O Daniel, I have now come out to give you insight and understanding.
Dan 9:23 At the beginning of your pleas for mercy a word went out, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly loved. Therefore consider the word and understand the

mareh

Dan 9:24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both

chazon

and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.
Dan 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.
Dan 9:27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”




 
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For reference, each instance of "vision" with the underlying term:

Dan 8:1 In the third year of the reign of King Belshazzar a

chazon

appeared to me, Daniel, after that which appeared to me at the first.
Dan 8:2 And I saw in the

chazon

and when I saw, I was in Susa the citadel, which is in the province of Elam. And I saw in the

chazon

and I was at the Ulai canal.
Dan 8:3 I raised my eyes and saw, and behold, a ram standing on the bank of the canal. It had two horns, and both horns were high, but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last.
Dan 8:4 I saw the ram charging westward and northward and southward. No beast could stand before him, and there was no one who could rescue from his power. He did as he pleased and became great.
Dan 8:5 As I was considering, behold, a male goat came from the west across the face of the whole earth, without touching the ground. And the goat had a conspicuous horn between his eyes.
Dan 8:6 He came to the ram with the two horns, which I had seen standing on the bank of the canal, and he ran at him in his powerful wrath.
Dan 8:7 I saw him come close to the ram, and he was enraged against him and struck the ram and broke his two horns. And the ram had no power to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground and trampled on him. And there was no one who could rescue the ram from his power.
Dan 8:8 Then the goat became exceedingly great, but when he was strong, the great horn was broken, and instead of it there came up four conspicuous horns toward the four winds of heaven.
Dan 8:9 Out of one of them came a little horn, which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the glorious land.
Dan 8:10 It grew great, even to the host of heaven. And some of the host and some of the stars it threw down to the ground and trampled on them.
Dan 8:11 It became great, even as great as the Prince of the host. And the regular burnt offering was taken away from him, and the place of his sanctuary was overthrown.
Dan 8:12 And a host will be given over to it together with the regular burnt offering because of transgression, and it will throw truth to the ground, and it will act and prosper.
Dan 8:13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, “For how long is the

chazon

concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?”
Dan 8:14 And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”
Dan 8:15 When I, Daniel, had seen the

chazon

I sought to understand it. And behold, there stood before me one having the appearance of a man.
Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, and it called, “Gabriel, make this man understand the

mareh

Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood. And when he came, I was frightened and fell on my face. But he said to me, “Understand, O son of man, that the

chazon

is for the time of the end.”
Dan 8:18 And when he had spoken to me, I fell into a deep sleep with my face to the ground. But he touched me and made me stand up.
Dan 8:19 He said, “Behold, I will make known to you what shall be at the latter end of the indignation, for it refers to the appointed time of the end.
Dan 8:20 As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21 And the goat is the king of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king.
Dan 8:22 As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power.
Dan 8:23 And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise.
Dan 8:24 His power shall be great—but not by his own power; and he shall cause fearful destruction and shall succeed in what he does, and destroy mighty men and the people who are the saints.
Dan 8:25 By his cunning he shall make deceit prosper under his hand, and in his own mind he shall become great. Without warning he shall destroy many. And he shall even rise up against the Prince of princes, and he shall be broken—but by no human hand.
Dan 8:26 The

mareh

of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the

chazon

for it refers to many days from now.”
Dan 8:27 And I, Daniel, was overcome and lay sick for some days. Then I rose and went about the king's business, but I was appalled by the

mareh

and did not understand it.

It seems to validate your point that the 2300 days is for the end of days
 
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found a teacher c'hazon and mare

In post #132 video 4 and video 5 are unnecessary. They are basically promos or small parts of the full study on chapter 8 in the first three videos. Video 5's title even says it is a trailer, and it is only 4 minutes talking about the series.

Video 4
The animals of Daniel 8 explained // What do the animals mean in Daniel 8?

and video 5
Understanding Daniel's Visions, Mareh & Chazown - Daniel 8 Trailer - Bible Prophecy Explained

I have gone through the videos on post #132. I will get to the next three on Daniel 9 when I get a chance.
 
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Daniel 9 Angels in the Glen
Chapter 9 Explained – Review of Daniel Chapter 8 Visions, Mareh & Chazown – Part 1

The first video of post #133 is also unnecessary as it is all review of the Daniel 8 presentation.
 
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