Daniel 2, 7, & 8 Illustration - how does one support that Daniel 8 is Antiochus Epiphanes

AdamjEdgar

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My understanding is that writers most often set the theme of their publications at the start and will summarise at the end. It seems to me that if one takes that approach, then the attached image makes sense.

97_Daniel_large.jpg


there seems to be considerable argument over whether we can use the above approach in the Bible...although in the context of this question the prophecies of Daniel are the focus.

What i find interesting is that Daniel seems to focus his writings almost entirely on the kingdoms of the future and sometimes even the very distant future (end times). That i believe would then very naturally link with another bible book speaking about such things...ie the book of Revelation. It appears quite often we are willing to accept that link, so why not links between chapters in daniel itself that very much appear to be describing the same things?

I have found this illustration linking points between Daniel 2,7, and 8.

Why is it not sensible to say that Daniel 2, 7, & 8 are not talking about the exact same kingdoms?
 

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AdamjEdgar

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Rome is not mentioned in Daniel 8, that is an assumption and false conclusion
and therein lies the exact example of the very thing i said in my opening statement

writers most often set the theme of their publications at the start and will summarise at the end
Those who have a better grasp of writing than i do would state that one who reads much literary work would immediately recognise that what you just said is not an argument that is supported by writing techniques. One can easily discount such a viewpoint with standard essay writing techniques...which are not limited to only modern knowledge of language.

The theme of the entire book of Daniel is clearly setout in the dream of Nebuchadnezzar concerning the statue. Do you dissagree that has any relevance to this prophet and sets the theme of this book?

Might i also remind you that the prophets of the old testament tended to have themes they consistently prophesied about. If i recall correctly, Moses lead his people out of Egypt and re established the law, Isaiah focused considerable effort on the coming Messiah, Jeremiah about the coming doom facing Jerusalem, Samuel - the transition from judges to a king...SDA's would say E.G White has her own place in history (i am not here to argue that point).

So i think Icedragon, in light of what verse 17 says “Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end.” you will need to elaborate considerably on the derisory reason you just gave!
 
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and therein lies the exact example of the very thing i said in my opening statement

writers most often set the theme of their publications at the start and will summarise at the end
Those who have a better grasp of writing than i do would state that one who reads much literary work would immediately recognise that what you just said is not an argument that is supported by writing techniques. One can easily discount such a viewpoint with standard essay writing techniques...which are not limited to only modern knowledge of language.

The theme of the entire book of Daniel is clearly setout in the dream of Nebuchadnezzar concerning the statue. Do you dissagree that has any relevance to this prophet and sets the theme of this book?

Might i also remind you that the prophets of the old testament tended to have themes they consistently prophesied about. If i recall correctly, Moses lead his people out of Egypt and re established the law, Isaiah focused considerable effort on the coming Messiah, Jeremiah about the coming doom facing Jerusalem, Samuel - the transition from judges to a king...SDA's would say E.G White has her own place in history (i am not here to argue that point).

So i think Icedragon, you will need to elaborate considerably on the derisory reason you just gave!
In each of the prior 2 Prophecies we have a pattern established that is violated in 8, using your interpretation. In Daniel 2 we see that each metal represents a kingdom. In Daniel 7 each beast represents a Nation and a horn represent a king. In Daniel 8 you have a 2 beast that represent a Nations, the you have a horn that represents the first king of 2nd beast. In order for your interpretation to hold there should be another beast with another horn, but we don't see that. We see the 2nd beast have 1 horn the shatters into muiltipul horns, so if the first horn is a king then the 4 shattered horns are kings as well. It says that out of 1 of these another horn will emerge that messes with the Gods temple and we see that. Now if your view that it is Rome is true we should see another beast with another horn, BUT AGAIN WE DON'T SEE THAT.
 
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AdamjEdgar

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In each of the prior 2 Prophecies we have a pattern established that is violated in 8, using your interpretation. In Daniel 2 we see that each metal represents a kingdom. In Daniel 7 each beast represents a Nation and a horn represent a king. In Daniel 8 you have a 2 beast that represent a Nations, the you have a horn that represents the first king of 2nd beast. In order for your interpretation to hold there should be another beast with another horn, but we don't see that. We see the 2nd beast have 1 horn the shatters into muiltipul horns, so if the first horn is a king then the 4 shattered horns are kings as well. It says that out of 1 of these another horn will emerge that messes with the Gods temple and we see that. Now if your view that it is Rome is true we should see another beast with another horn, BUT AGAIN WE DON'T SEE THAT.

I would disagree with that for good reason...what is the nature of the beast in Daniel 7? What is the purpose of the descriptions of all of the beasts in Daniel 7? Why do you think in Daniel 7 the last beast was not described as it was in Daniel 8? EDIT and finally, why would daniel have 3 very similar dreams concerning the future kingdoms of the world in chapters 2, 7 & 8...do you not think that is significant? (i have seen police officers arrest people for less, and courts convict on less)
 
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tall73

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I would disagree with that for good reason...what is the nature of the beast in Daniel 7? What is the purpose of the descriptions of all of the beasts in Daniel 7? Why do you think in Daniel 7 the last beast was not described as it was in Daniel 8?

They are sacrificially clean animals, as Doukhan, etc. noted.
 
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AdamjEdgar

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They are sacrificially clean animals, as Doukhan, etc. noted.

EDIT...
if your theory holds, why is there no little horn in ch 2?

The reason why think the 4th beast is not mentioned is because God is illustrating to Daniel in the dream in Ch 8 the origins of the little horn itself...not the kingdom from which he had earlier said it would gain its political power from (which was Rome in Ch 7).

The start of the defilement (a better word eludes me at the moment) that the little horn became synonymous with during the dark ages, began during the reign of Alexander the Great.

Caesar proved the first of many prominent Romans to pay such homage. To those Romans who desired great power, Alexander was an immortalised conqueror who epitomised world conquest – a man to admire and emulate.

Throughout the Roman Imperial period, many emperors would visit Alexander’s tomb – emperors including Augustus, Caligula, Vespasian, Titus and Hadrian. For them all, the body symbolised the zenith of imperial power.
 
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tall73

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EDIT...
if your theory holds, why is there no little horn in ch 2?

The reason why think the 4th beast is not mentioned is because God is illustrating to Daniel in the dream in Ch 8 the origins of the little horn itself...not the kingdom from which he had earlier said it would gain its political power from (which was Rome in Ch 7).

The start of the defilement (a better word eludes me at the moment) that the little horn became synonymous with during the dark ages, began during the reign of Alexander the Great.

Caesar proved the first of many prominent Romans to pay such homage. To those Romans who desired great power, Alexander was an immortalised conqueror who epitomised world conquest – a man to admire and emulate.

Throughout the Roman Imperial period, many emperors would visit Alexander’s tomb – emperors including Augustus, Caligula, Vespasian, Titus and Hadrian. For them all, the body symbolised the zenith of imperial power.


Daniel 2 used different illustrations altogether, so no horn would be expected.

And in Daniel 8 they are in fact clean sacrificial animals.
 
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tall73

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EDIT...
if your theory holds, why is there no little horn in ch 2?

The reason why think the 4th beast is not mentioned is because God is illustrating to Daniel in the dream in Ch 8 the origins of the little horn itself...not the kingdom from which he had earlier said it would gain its political power from (which was Rome in Ch 7).

Are you taking Hasel's view that the masculine indicates it comes from one of the four winds?
 
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AdamjEdgar

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Are you taking Hasel's view that the masculine indicates it comes from one of the four winds?
there is a fundamental difference between the little horn and the beasts...beast do not have the power of reason...the little horn spoken of in various places in the bible has a mouth and eyes and profanes God. That is a very significant difference...your claim about Hasel ignores obvious historical fact...

To those Romans who desired great power, Alexander was an immortalised conqueror who epitomised world conquest – a man to admire and emulate.

that is the significance of the little horn and a key link between chapter 2,7 & 8 ...that complaint against joining 7 & 8 is now irrefutably resolved.

Lets not forget that Jesus was tempted with the exact same desire by Satan on the top of temple in Matthew 4

8Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”
 
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there is a fundamental difference between the little horn and the beasts...beast do not have the power of reason...the little horn spoken of in various places in the bible has a mouth and eyes and profanes God. That is a very significant difference...your claim about Hasel ignores obvious historical fact...

To those Romans who desired great power, Alexander was an immortalised conqueror who epitomised world conquest – a man to admire and emulate.

that is the significance of the little horn and a key link between chapter 2,7 & 8 ...that complaint against joining 7 & 8 is now irrefutably resolved.

Lets not forget that Jesus was tempted with the exact same desire by Satan on the top of temple in Matthew 4

8Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”

Your responses don't even seem related to my questions. Why don't you just spell out your view.
 
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..your claim about Hasel ignores obvious historical fact...

Hasel thought the little horn came from one of the winds. So how did I ignore something?

If you are saying Hasel was wrong, that is for you to argue with his position. I was just asking if you hold that position.

Dan 8:8 Then the goat became exceedingly great, but when he was strong, the great horn was broken, and instead of it there came up four conspicuous horns toward the four winds of heaven.
Dan 8:9 Out of one of them came a little horn, which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the glorious land.


Hasel applied "out of one of them" to the winds, rather than the horns, on partly a grammatical basis.

 
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tall73

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there is a fundamental difference between the little horn and the beasts...beast do not have the power of reason...the little horn spoken of in various places in the bible has a mouth and eyes and profanes God. That is a very significant difference...your claim about Hasel ignores obvious historical fact...

To those Romans who desired great power, Alexander was an immortalised conqueror who epitomised world conquest – a man to admire and emulate.

that is the significance of the little horn and a key link between chapter 2,7 & 8 ...that complaint against joining 7 & 8 is now irrefutably resolved.

Lets not forget that Jesus was tempted with the exact same desire by Satan on the top of temple in Matthew 4

8Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”

We haven't even started talking about the details, or the link to the dates which you alleged in the other thread. So no, the link is not resolved.

If you are indicating a thematic parallel that is fine. You still have to make the details work. So I am asking your view of the detail about "out of one of them".
 
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AdamjEdgar

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The historical fact is that Hasel thought the little horn came from one of the winds. So how did I ignore something?

If you are saying Hasel was wrong, that is for you to argue with his position. I was just asking if you hold that position.

Dan 8:8 Then the goat became exceedingly great, but when he was strong, the great horn was broken, and instead of it there came up four conspicuous horns toward the four winds of heaven.
Dan 8:9 Out of one of them came a little horn, which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the glorious land.


Hasel applied "out of one of them" to the winds, rather than the horns, on partly a grammatical basis.
I am not making a claim of that point...that is your position in an attempt to rationalise that the little horn could not have been Rome.

What i have now found is that the significance of the little horn in Daniel 8 is what it stands for...The Romans were completely infatuated with Alexander the Great. They aspired to be him. This same aspiration is found in the Little horn in Daniel ch 7 and also Revelation 13 and there is absolutely no doubt that Daniel 7 and 8 are referring to the same thing. You can quote all the bible verses you like, not a single one of them will refute the historical fact about Alexander The Great and the Little Horn. I think God has very deliberately explained it perfectly and history shows that to be the case.

Sorry but i think we can move on now...you havent got any hope of arguing this point any further...its blown out of the water, the link between Daniel 2,7 &8 is also irrefutably supported by a very distinguishable historical fact!

One can grumble about my views on this, however, one would need to complain to the Roman Emporers about this, they are the ones who marveled at Alexander The Great (by visiting his tomb etc) thus fulfilling the prophecy in Daniel 8!
 
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I am not making a claim of that point...that is your position in an attempt to rationalise that the little horn could not have been Rome.

Hasel was a quite conservative Adventist who published his view in the DARCOM series which was a response to Ford. He was arguing FOR it to be Rome.

You may recall you quoted from another article of Hasel in the other thread:

What are Progressive/Evangelical views on Des Ford Investigative Judgement Thesis

You don't seem to grasp the issue that Ice raised, and that Hasel was trying to get around.
 
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What i have now found is that the significance of the little horn in Daniel 8 is what it stands for...The Romans were completely infatuated with Alexander the Great. They aspired to be him. This same aspiration is found in the Little horn in Daniel ch 7 and also Revelation 13 and there is absolutely no doubt that Daniel 7 and 8 are referring to the same thing. You can quote all the bible verses you like, not a single one of them will refute the historical fact about Alexander The Great and the Little Horn. I think God has very deliberately explained it perfectly and history shows that to be the case.

Sorry but i think we can move on now...you havent got any hope of arguing this point any further...its blown out of the water, the link between Daniel 2,7 &8 is also irrefutably supported by a very distinguishable historical fact!

I know, you don't like me to quote Bible verses. But it is necessary to look at the details.
 
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I would disagree with that for good reason...what is the nature of the beast in Daniel 7? What is the purpose of the descriptions of all of the beasts in Daniel 7? Why do you think in Daniel 7 the last beast was not described as it was in Daniel 8? EDIT and finally, why would Daniel have 3 very similar dreams concerning the future kingdoms of the world in chapters 2, 7 & 8...do you not think that is significant? (i have seen police officers arrest people for less, and courts convict on less)
that is not good logic. the dreams were years and some times decades a part, the only reason they appear to closer to one another then they actually are is the arrangement of the book thematically in a Biphid structure, mostly narrative in the front and all prophecy in the back. The actual order of the book is Chapters 1,2,3,4,7,8,5,6,9,10,11,12. While Daniel 7 & 8 are 2 years apart Daniel 2 is at the beginning of the captivity. This i problamatic for the Millerite view of the 2300 days because he just ASSUMED a connection between Daniel 8 & 9 base on the location in the book. Note: We don't interpret Daniel 8 by Daniel 7 nor do we interpret Daniel 7 by Daniel 2. We do how ever borrow the order and ASSUME the same pattern in Daniel 7 & 8. other then this they are stand alone prophecies
 
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Caesar proved the first of many prominent Romans to pay such homage. To those Romans who desired great power, Alexander was an immortalised conqueror who epitomised world conquest – a man to admire and emulate.

Throughout the Roman Imperial period, many emperors would visit Alexander’s tomb – emperors including Augustus, Caligula, Vespasian, Titus and Hadrian. For them all, the body symbolised the zenith of imperial power.
source this please, the location of Alexanders tomb has been in much debate. This brings into question this claim
 
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tall73

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Sorry but i think we can move on now...you havent got any hope of arguing this point any further...its blown out of the water, the link between Daniel 2,7 &8 is also irrefutably supported by a very distinguishable historical fact!

One can grumble about my views on this, however, one would need to complain to the Roman Emporers about this, they are the ones who marveled at Alexander The Great (by visiting his tomb etc) thus fulfilling the prophecy in Daniel 8!

The irony was I was never arguing against your point. I was referencing someone who holds the Adventist view to try to see if you agreed with him on the details.

I am fine with entertaining the notion that 2, 7, and 8 deal with the same material. But you are going to need more than a thematic resemblance. You still have to make the details fit.

Moreover, the connection we were referring to in the other thread is that between chapters 8 and 9, which you have not addressed in this thread at all. And it is not just a thematic link that is needed, but a very specific link regarding the starting point of the vision of 9 being applied to chapter 8.

Since you have indicated you hold the Adventist view in the other thread, it would be nice if you actually spelled out that view for all the folks who have no idea what you are talking about.
 
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AdamjEdgar

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source this please, the location of Alexanders tomb has been in much debate. This brings into question this claim

eh? What are you now attempting to claim?

1. Alexander The Great did not exist? (honestly that would be a foolhardy view to take)
2. That the Ceasars Augustus, Caligula, Vespasian, Titus and Hadrian did not aspire to his greatness?
3. Are you denying the following in history? "Alexander’s body remained a place of pagan pilgrimage in Alexandria until 391 AD, when the Eastern Roman Emperor Theodosius officially banned paganism throughout the Empire. It is likely Alexander’s tomb was either destroyed or converted during this crisis".

Because if you are arguing against the above, might I suggest that now that international travel is again on the cards, you should take the following trip to Macedonia...

5 Days Pilgrimage Tour to Central Macedonia - Pilgrimage to Greece - Byzantine Tours - OramaWorld Travel

Unique land with a long history and continuous human presence from Prehistoric times; it was here, where the Twelve Olympian Gods encountered the ancient Macedonian civilization and the glory of Alexander the Great; it was here, where the Byzantine grandeur encountered the rise of the Christian faith. Here you can discover the Purity of Faith in the steps of St. Paul, the numerous churches and the unique Monastic State of Mount Athos. Central Macedonia is a place of unsurpassed natural beauty.
Whilst you are preparing for the above trip, here are some historical facts regarding how the Romans viewed him...

Alexander the Great and his conquests have always passed into the memory of posterity. Ancient Romans were a people who very often referred to the feats of the Macedonian leader – especially the generals.

It is worth mentioning here about Polybius, a Greek historian and chronicler of the Roman Empire during the republic. He begins his main work The Histories from the memory of Alexander the Great and encourages Roman chieftains to imitate the great ancestor.

Pompey even became similar to the Macedonian, wearing the same hairstyle, so-called anastole, where the hair on the forehead was combed up, divided by a parting, drooping wavy on the sides of the head. The special popularity of this hairstyle dates back to the time when it was disseminated by Lysippos in the portraits of king Alexander the Great. In addition, Pompey sought Aleksander’s coat in the eastern lands.

Julius Caesar was supposedly commissioned to create a statue with Alexander’s body and his head. When in 69 BCE Caesar took up the position of the quaestor in Spain and saw the statue of the great Macedonian leader he expressed dissatisfaction with the fact that when Alexander was at his age conquered the world, once he did not achieve anything significant.

Emperor Augustus admired Alexander so much that he went to his tomb in Alexandria, where he changed for a time the sphinx guarding the grave on the statue of Alexander
. The Macedonian leader was also admired by Nero, Trajan and Caracalla. Familia of emperor Maciynus, carried Alexander’s images, either on jewelery or on clothes.

Sources



    • Adrian Goldsworthy, Cezar: Życie giganta
    • Aleksander Krawczuk, Cesarz August
    • Polybius, The Histories
    • Oswald Sobrino, An Affable Bust of Pompey the Great: Insight into a Major Roman Figure and his Times
Do you want more references...i can go on as there are plenty of them that fulfill the prophecy concerning the little horn in Daniel 8 clearly linking it with Daniel 2 & 7 and Revelation 13.

I think we can then sum up Daniel exactly as a literary writer would expect...the culmination perfectly illustrated in the following...

4“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.
We are clearly in the days of the time of the end...so back we go to Daniel Chapter 2 and stitch it all together (Nebuchadnezzars dream - the statue that is destroyed with a stone/rock cut without hands)

45Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.”
[URL='http://biblehub.com/daniel/2-46.htm']46[/URL]Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell on his face, prostrate before Daniel,47The king answered Daniel, and said, “Truly your God is the God of gods, the Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets,
 
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