Daniel 2:44 The Kingdom That Breaks All Other Kingdoms

[grafted branch]

Adam Maarschalk - clueless. The abomination of desolation will be image of the beast that comes to life and speaks - because Satan will be incarnating the image. The image will be brought to ashes, exposing Satan on the temple mount, as part of the prophesied end of Satan being a terror nor more in Ezekiel 28:16-19.

Nothing in man's history even comes close to what is going to happen when the six seal event takes place and Jesus returning to this earth.

View attachment 289000

So I see several areas in your charts that I completely disagree with, but the one reason that I simply have to reject the chart is that if someone was alive in the final 7 years they would be able to use your chart to know the exact day of Christ’s coming.

 

[Dave L]

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
Daniel 2:44
​

Here in Daniel we have expectations set high. In verses 36 through 43 Daniel describes a dream of King Nebuchadnezzar, and then gives an interpretation of it. The interpretation describes the Babylonian Empire, the Medo-Persian and Greek Empires, and then finally ends with the Roman Empire. After describing these empires, he gives this grand 44th verse, which indicates that all of these kingdoms will be broken into pieces and be consumed by another kingdom, a divine kingdom that shall stand forever.

If the interpretation of current Bible scholars is correct and if the final empire of the interpretation is indeed the Roman Empire, then their expectation of a Second Coming on behalf of Jesus is in jeopardy in regard to this verse. For we see here that the verse says, “and in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom.” The verse does not say “after” the days, but “in” the days of these kings shall the God of Heaven set up a kingdom.

This may be another scripture that helped create a high pitch of excitement in the first century when it came to Messianic expectations. For the coming of the Messiah would have initiated the coming of this divine kingdom, in the eyes of the Jews. Though Jews did not accept Jesus as a Messiah, His coming at the time could be a fulfillment of this Daniel prophecy, because the kingdom He has set up has indeed spread throughout the earth, and has infiltrated every government on planet Earth with followers, starting with the Roman Empire. And as such, Jesus’ kingdom was officially established “in the days of these kings,” specifically the Roman Empire, the final empire of Nebuchadnezzar’s statue.

This is another verse that is very time-specific with respect to the kingdom promised to the Jews. The Roman Empire, at the latest, died out about the fifth century. Since the time of Jesus in the first century, there has been no Messiah figure who has captured the hearts and minds of people all over the earth, except possibly Mohammad, but he is clearly no Jewish Messiah. Jesus was Jewish, and because of that, and the fact that He was of the line of King David (Matthew 1:1-16), He can at least be considered as a Jewish Messianic figure. Name another well-known Jewish Messianic figure after the first century but before the fifth century, and we can start to talk about the fulfillment of the Daniel prophecy in somebody else besides Jesus of Nazareth. Because there is none, we leave this verse as yet another one pointing directly to Jesus as the Christ of the Jews and, as this verse points out, something much more than a Christ solely to the Jews, because His kingdom was to permeate the entire world, which it has.

For right now, one in every three people professes to be a Christian. These one in three are not located in only a few countries on planet Earth; they are spread out throughout all the nations of the earth. These various people throughout time are members of this earthly kingdom, which has broken to pieces the Roman Empire, and any other empire, even unto our day.

The kingdom arrived as spoken. But only the born again can see it. It's still here.

 

[Douggg]

So I see several areas in your charts that I completely disagree with, but the one reason that I simply have to reject the chart is that if someone was alive in the final 7 years they would be able to use your chart to know the exact day of Christ’s coming.

There is a 19 year cycle, called the Metonic cycle, in Judaism to get the 360 day year back in sync with the solar cycle, which adds an extra month, called Adar 2 every 2 years and 3 years. Since no one knows when the 70th week begins, it is not possible to factor in the Metonic cycle aforehand, and for understanding's sake the timeframes are based on 360 days.

Some in Pre-trib view claim that the rapture will have to happen prior to the beginning of the 70th week for the reason you stated, it should also be noted.

Jews (Judaism) consider the prophecies in the New Testament as fairly tales. So they are certainly not going to be counting the Days till Jesus's return. And there will be a great falling away beginning in Christianity at the same time, 2Thessalonians2:3, when Judaism's King of Israel/messiah, coming in his own name arrives.

The rapture has to happen before the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God - beginning the Day of Lord. So the countdown to Jesus's return at that point forward has no bearing on when the rapture takes place of not knowing the day nor hour - because it will have already happened.

 

[Douggg]

Completely different.

The Daniel 7 little Roman horn arose out of the ten Roman horns.

No relationship to Daniel 8.

The little horn in Daniel 8:9 waxes strong from the geographic location of one of Alexander's breakup kingdoms that is north and west of Israel, at the time of the end. i.e from the location of Greece, the eastern most frontier of the EU.

 

[jgr]

The little horn in Daniel 8:9 waxes strong from the geographic location of one of Alexander's breakup kingdoms that is north and west of Israel, at the time of the end. i.e from the location of Greece, the eastern most frontier of the EU.

The ten horns in your post 9 are ten historical kingdoms resulting from the dissolution of the western imperial Roman empire, in Daniel 7.

The little horn is the papal Roman kingdom which overthrew three of the ten.

Nothing to do with Daniel 8.

Nothing to do with our future.

All verifiable history.

 

[Douggg]

The ten horns in your post 9 are ten historical kingdoms resulting from the dissolution of the western imperial Roman empire, in Daniel 7.

No, the ten kings are at the time of the little horn, who is time of end.

The little horn is the papal Roman kingdom which overthrew three of the ten.

Nothing to do with Daniel 8.

Nothing to do with our future.

All verifiable history.

The little horn is a person not a kingdom. The ten kings and the little horn come out of the fourth kingdom in Daniel 7. Time of the end.

The ten kings in Revelation 17:16 will destroy the woman - which you are saying is the papal Roman kingdom. If you look around you will see the Pope and the Vatican is still in business. So Revelation 17:16 is future, the destruction of the Papacy and the Vatican has not happen yet, by the ten kings. The ten kings are time of the end.

 

[jgr]

No, the ten kings are at the time of the little horn, who is time of end.

I've provided historical evidence, confirmed in the Reformation.

What is your evidence?

Since the future has no evidence, only fantasy, fallacy, presumption, conjecture, and speculation; it will be rather difficult to provide any.

The ten kings in Revelation 17:16 will destroy the woman - which you are saying is the papal Roman kingdom.

Provide a copy/paste quote of me "saying".

 

[chad kincham]

Hi in a sense the kingdom has come but Dan 2 is certainly future. The spiritual kingdom as being born again is part of what you saw in Jesus day. The prophecies about the kingdom that comes and covers the earth and has no end are many and to understand what and when it happens if you look at all the verses on this subject you will see a clear before and after picture of the earth, Israel on so many levels when the kingdom comes it is a night and day difference that is permanent until the millennium is over.
Starting in Dan 2 The stone cut without hands descends from heaven and destroys the image of mans kingdom leaving no trace of them and this stone is a mountain that covers the earth and has no end. We still see mans kingdoms and have always seen them and they have not been ground to powder and blown away. This kingdom that covers the earth and has no end can only have one beginning and in Dan 7 we see that the kingdom that comes and covers the earth and has no end arrives when a pompous ruler comes on the seen and he is persecuting the saints for a time times and half a time. He is destroyed and his body given to the flame and one like the son of man who is before the ancient of days is given the kingdom that covers the earth and has no end. This looks more like it starts at the 2nd coming of Jesus. Look to Rev 13 and we see the beast who's body is also given to the flame gaining dominion over every tribe tongue kindred and nation. Now John wrote this prophecy as things still to come and this beast also had 42 months to rule and persecute the saints just like the guy in Dan 7. In Rev the angels sing out the kingdoms of this earth have become the kingdoms of the LORD and his Christ and He shall reign forever. This transfer is seen in many passages taking place at the battle of Armageddon. Zech 14 shows this day in great detail. Jerusalem is being overrun and half the city is taken captive. The LORD comes with His saints and melts the armies invading. The Mt of Olives splits in two forming a river that flows two directions one of them east and this river flows year round. In that day the LORD is king over all the earth. In that day they will say the LORD is one. From that time on the nations which are left must come keep the feast of Tabernacles or they get no rain and they also must worship the king. Now Jesus is king and they now He and the Father are one as the LORD is king and the LORD is one is Israel confessing Jesus is LORD. That river cannot be a metaphor as in Ezekiel 47 when this river is flowing it heals the dead sea and the fishing there is going to be excellent The 12 tribes of Israel are given their inheritance by lot when that river is flowing and the kingdom established. This is enough for now but this barely touches on the topic.

Exactly!

 

[chad kincham]

I've provided historical evidence, confirmed in the Reformation.

What is your evidence?

Since the future has no evidence, only fantasy, fallacy, presumption, conjecture, and speculation; it will be rather difficult to provide any.



Provide a copy/paste quote of me saying.

Last time I checked, Mount Olive hasn’t been split in two with a HUGE chasm in the middle, at Jesus’ second coming.

Last time I checked, one third of the world was never burned up, and a fourth of mankind killed.

Last time I checked, an asteroid or meteor has never plunged into the ocean and killed one third of sea life.

Last time I checked, 120 pound hailstones have never fallen and killed a lot of people.

Last time I checked, there are over 80 unfulfilled prophecies that will occur during, and after the tribulation, that refute preterist claims that all end time prophecy has been fulfilled.

 

[Timtofly]

So I see several areas in your charts that I completely disagree with, but the one reason that I simply have to reject the chart is that if someone was alive in the final 7 years they would be able to use your chart to know the exact day of Christ’s coming.

All post trib claimers have to know the date of the second coming. Just hours after the 7th vial. That is why the Second Coming is not post trib.

 

[jgr]

Last time I checked, Mount Olive hasn’t been split in two with a HUGE chasm in the middle, at Jesus’ second coming.

Last time I checked, one third of the world was never burned up, and a fourth of mankind killed.

Last time I checked, an asteroid or meteor has never plunged into the ocean and killed one third of sea life.

Last time I checked, 120 pound hailstones have never fallen and killed a lot of people.

Last time I checked, there are over 80 unfulfilled prophecies that will occur during, and after the tribulation, that refute preterist claims that all end time prophecy has been fulfilled.

Last time I checked, Daniel 7 has no idea what you're referring to.

 

[Douggg]

I've provided historical evidence, confirmed in the Reformation.

You provided historic opinion.

What is your evidence?

Since the future has no evidence, only fantasy, fallacy, presumption, conjecture, and speculation; it will be rather difficult to provide any.

The person has not come to power yet, to provide a name.

Provide a copy/paste quote of me "saying".

your post #25 "The little horn is the papal Roman kingdom which overthrew three of the ten."

 

[Davy]

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
Daniel 2:44
​

Here in Daniel we have expectations set high. In verses 36 through 43 Daniel describes a dream of King Nebuchadnezzar, and then gives an interpretation of it. The interpretation describes the Babylonian Empire, the Medo-Persian and Greek Empires, and then finally ends with the Roman Empire. After describing these empires, he gives this grand 44th verse, which indicates that all of these kingdoms will be broken into pieces and be consumed by another kingdom, a divine kingdom that shall stand forever.

If the interpretation of current Bible scholars is correct and if the final empire of the interpretation is indeed the Roman Empire, then their expectation of a Second Coming on behalf of Jesus is in jeopardy in regard to this verse. For we see here that the verse says, “and in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom.” The verse does not say “after” the days, but “in” the days of these kings shall the God of Heaven set up a kingdom.
....

The Daniel 2 Scripture reveals both the Preterist and Historicist views as myth. I don't include Futurism because its a myth all by itself.

Dan 2:34-35
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
KJV

That "stone" represents Lord Jesus coming to smite that beast upon its feet of ten toes. That is only one of the main things we are to notice there. We are also to note that ALL of those five pieces of the beast image statue are "together" when Jesus comes to smite it upon its feet of part iron and part clay. Then, noticing it says the wind carries that beast away, and the stone fills the whole earth, means what the later verses 44-45 declare about Christ's kingdom setup on earth in final.


Dan 2:44-45
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
KJV

The 5th beast kingdom is the final one for our near future. It is not Rome. It is Jerusalem.

Jerusalem is where Christ's Revelation points to involving the coming of the false one who is to work great signs and wonders that if possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect (Matthew 24:23-26 is about a singular pseudo-Christ in Jerusalem for the end, not many).

 

[jgr]

You provided historic opinion.

Opinion based on evidence is infinitely superior to opinion based on imagination.

The person has not come to power yet, to provide a name.

Scripture has all of the identification information necessary, as history proves.

your post #25 "The little horn is the papal Roman kingdom which overthrew three of the ten."

Your allegation: "The ten kings in Revelation 17:16 will destroy the woman - which you are saying is the papal Roman kingdom."

I said: "The little horn is the papal Roman kingdom which overthrew three of the ten."

No Revelation. No woman.

See the difference?

 

[mkgal1]

Adam Maarschalk - clueless. The abomination of desolation will be image of the beast that comes to life and speaks - because Satan will be incarnating the image. The image will be brought to ashes, exposing Satan on the temple mount, as part of the prophesied end of Satan being a terror nor more in Ezekiel 28:16-19.

Nothing in man's history even comes close to what is going to happen when the six seal event takes place and Jesus returning to this earth.

View attachment 289000

This is imposing a lot onto the text that isn't there.

Regarding the abomination of desolation:

Quoting Adam Maarschalk's page:
From Scripture it seems possible that the holy place mentioned by Jesus was not the temple, but Jerusalem, since the entire city was considered holy (Daniel 9:24, Nehemiah 11:1, Matthew 4:5, Matthew 27:53). In Daniel’s day the temple was holy, but Jesus had just pronounced it desolate (Matthew 23:38). This was the viewpoint of Chrysostom, who wrote, “For this it seems to me that the abomination of desolation means the army by which the holy city of Jerusalem was made desolate” (recorded in The Ante-Nicene Fathers). Thomas Newton, in his dissertation titled “The Prophecy of Matthew 24” written in 1753, also took this position (Todd Dennis [12], 2009):

Whatever difficulty there is in these words [in Matthew 24:15-16], it may be cleared up by the parallel place in St. Luke, ‘And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains,’-xxi – 20, 21. So that ‘the abomination of desolation’ is the Roman army, and ‘the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place’ is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem. This, saith our Saviour, is ‘the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,’ in the ninth and eleventh chapters; and so let every one who readeth those prophecies, understand them. The Roman army is called ‘the abomination,’ for its ensigns and images, which were so to the Jews.

Other commentators roughly contemporary to Thomas Newton held to the same view, i.e. that these words of Jesus were fulfilled in 67-70 AD, also allowing that “the holy place” was not the inner temple but Jerusalem itself. These included John Wesley (1754), Adam Clarke (1837), C. H. (Charles) Spurgeon (1868), and Philip Schaff (1877). For many of these commentators, it was enough of an abomination that the Romans came into Jerusalem bearing standards, emblems, and banners with images of their gods and proclamations of the deity of their emperor.[1] B.H. Carroll (1915), in his well-known work, “An Introduction of the English Bible,” related an interesting incident which took place during the reign of Tiberius (14-37 AD). This incident sheds light on what was constituted as such an abomination at this time:

Pilate, at that time Roman Procurator, sent from Caesarea, the seaport of that country on the Mediterranean Sea, a legion of Roman soldiers and had them secretly introduced into the city and sheltered in the tower of Antonio overlooking the Temple, and these soldiers brought with them their ensigns. The Roman sign was a straight staff, capped with a metallic eagle, and right under the eagle was a graven image of Caesar. Caesar claimed to be divine. Caesar exacted divine worship, and every evening when those standards were placed, the Roman legion got down and worshiped the image of Caesar thereof, and every morning at the roll call a part of the parade was for the whole legion to prostrate themselves before that graven image and worship it. The Jews were so horrified when they saw that image and the consequent worship, they went to Pilate, who was at that time living in Caesarea, and prostrated themselves before him and said, ‘Kill us, if you will, but take that abomination of desolation out of our Holy City and from the neighborhood of our holy temple’ (pp. 263-264).
​

"PP14: Abomination of Desolation | Pursuing Truth" PP14: Abomination of Desolation

 

[Zao is life]

The Daniel 2 Scripture reveals both the Preterist and Historicist views as myth. I don't include Futurism because its a myth all by itself.

Dan 2:34-35
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
KJV

That "stone" represents Lord Jesus coming to smite that beast upon its feet of ten toes. That is only one of the main things we are to notice there. We are also to note that ALL of those five pieces of the beast image statue are "together" when Jesus comes to smite it upon its feet of part iron and part clay. Then, noticing it says the wind carries that beast away, and the stone fills the whole earth, means what the later verses 44-45 declare about Christ's kingdom setup on earth in final.


Dan 2:44-45
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
KJV

The 5th beast kingdom is the final one for our near future. It is not Rome. It is Jerusalem.

Jerusalem is where Christ's Revelation points to involving the coming of the false one who is to work great signs and wonders that if possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect (Matthew 24:23-26 is about a singular pseudo-Christ in Jerusalem for the end, not many).

Which has not happened yet, so it's future. So futurism cannot be a myth.

 

[jgr]

This is imposing a lot onto the text that isn't there.

Regarding the abomination of desolation:

Quoting Adam Maarschalk's page:
From Scripture it seems possible that the holy place mentioned by Jesus was not the temple, but Jerusalem, since the entire city was considered holy (Daniel 9:24, Nehemiah 11:1, Matthew 4:5, Matthew 27:53). In Daniel’s day the temple was holy, but Jesus had just pronounced it desolate (Matthew 23:38). This was the viewpoint of Chrysostom, who wrote, “For this it seems to me that the abomination of desolation means the army by which the holy city of Jerusalem was made desolate” (recorded in The Ante-Nicene Fathers). Thomas Newton, in his dissertation titled “The Prophecy of Matthew 24” written in 1753, also took this position (Todd Dennis [12], 2009):

Whatever difficulty there is in these words [in Matthew 24:15-16], it may be cleared up by the parallel place in St. Luke, ‘And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains,’-xxi – 20, 21. So that ‘the abomination of desolation’ is the Roman army, and ‘the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place’ is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem. This, saith our Saviour, is ‘the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,’ in the ninth and eleventh chapters; and so let every one who readeth those prophecies, understand them. The Roman army is called ‘the abomination,’ for its ensigns and images, which were so to the Jews.

Other commentators roughly contemporary to Thomas Newton held to the same view, i.e. that these words of Jesus were fulfilled in 67-70 AD, also allowing that “the holy place” was not the inner temple but Jerusalem itself. These included John Wesley (1754), Adam Clarke (1837), C. H. (Charles) Spurgeon (1868), and Philip Schaff (1877). For many of these commentators, it was enough of an abomination that the Romans came into Jerusalem bearing standards, emblems, and banners with images of their gods and proclamations of the deity of their emperor.[1] B.H. Carroll (1915), in his well-known work, “An Introduction of the English Bible,” related an interesting incident which took place during the reign of Tiberius (14-37 AD). This incident sheds light on what was constituted as such an abomination at this time:

Pilate, at that time Roman Procurator, sent from Caesarea, the seaport of that country on the Mediterranean Sea, a legion of Roman soldiers and had them secretly introduced into the city and sheltered in the tower of Antonio overlooking the Temple, and these soldiers brought with them their ensigns. The Roman sign was a straight staff, capped with a metallic eagle, and right under the eagle was a graven image of Caesar. Caesar claimed to be divine. Caesar exacted divine worship, and every evening when those standards were placed, the Roman legion got down and worshiped the image of Caesar thereof, and every morning at the roll call a part of the parade was for the whole legion to prostrate themselves before that graven image and worship it. The Jews were so horrified when they saw that image and the consequent worship, they went to Pilate, who was at that time living in Caesarea, and prostrated themselves before him and said, ‘Kill us, if you will, but take that abomination of desolation out of our Holy City and from the neighborhood of our holy temple’ (pp. 263-264).
​

"PP14: Abomination of Desolation | Pursuing Truth" PP14: Abomination of Desolation

Thanks mkgal1; great antidote to futurist interpretation by hallucination.

 

[mkgal1]

....because Satan will be incarnating the image

Just an observation and a rhetorical question. I wonder why Satan is assigned so much power in the futurist's paradigm.

 

[mkgal1]

The interpretation describes the Babylonian Empire, the Medo-Persian and Greek Empires, and then finally ends with the Roman Empire.

Can we entertain the idea of the fourth kingdom being zealot-led Israel for a bit?

The Jewish Virtual Library continues its overview of Israel’s history by discussing Israel’s transition from dominance by the Greeks/Macedonians to full independence in 142 BC :

The Jews Regain Their Independence
It took more than two decades of fighting before the Maccabees forced the Seleucids to retreat from the Land of Israel. By this time Antiochus had died and his successor agreed to the Jews’ demand for independence. In the year 142 BCE, after more than 500 years of subjugation, the Jews were again masters of their own fate.

When Mattathias died, the revolt was led by his son Judas, or Judah Maccabee, as he is often called. By the end of the war, Simon was the only one of the five sons of Mattathias to survive and he ushered in an 80-year period of Jewish independence in Judea, as the Land of Israel was now called. The kingdom regained boundaries not far short of Solomon’s realm and Jewish life flourished.

The Hasmoneans claimed not only the throne of Judah, but also the post of High Priest. This assertion of religious authority conflicted with the tradition of the priests coming from the descendants of Moses’ brother Aaron and tribe of Levi.
History & Overview of the Maccabees​

 

[Davy]

Which has not happened yet, so it's future. So futurism cannot be a myth.

Most often Futurism is applied with man's theory of a pre-trib rapture, which isn't Biblical. That's how I mean Futurism. It doesn't mean there's no Bible prophecy still yet future. I use the term to apply to men's doctrines, not God's.