Dangers of Liberal Theology in the Church

[Lee52]

I didn't think you would be the type of person to cut someones statement short in order to use it to paint that person in a context that is contrary to the intent. Search your heart. From what you know about me, do you think I am on the opposite side of Jesus Christ? From the time I have been here I have seen this issue of liberalism take you from a guiding light, a beacon directing new Christians to the Logos and Christ like living and thought to a divisive, Christ-Tyrant, accuser. Accusing those who disagree with your OPINION of being not of Christ or dare I say Anti-Christ? Let me repost IN CONTEXT what i actually said:



It would seem that I have confused you. For that i'm sorry but please don't doubt who I believe is the author of truth. What I clumsily tried to explain is all people have knowledge of self even if they have no knowledge of God or are unable to comprehend the full truth of God.

It hurt me but i forgive you because I know you are acting how you feel you should but please, for the sake of your own soul, lay of the judgement of others and focus on how you live your life and treat others.

Are you capable of taking that little bit of constructive criticism with a grain of salt and living for Christ or will you feel compelled to defend your position and tell how I am mistaken.

The main point I want to make is things get confused when people mistake fact and opinion. though things are very real to an individual and are believed in as a fact which is faith, it is still an opinion and you are not able to judge who's truth is correct and who's is not. It is simply a difference in opinion.

God bless you mt friend, though we may disagree I pray we may grow together in our understand of Christ's will for our lives.

Robert, I am glad that you copied and pasted what you actually said. Gadfly did go back and copy and paste exactly what my post, that he misunderstood and attributed to me and saw that he was mistaken, as I was stating sarcastically, facetiously what "PC" teaches, not what Lee teaches. Gadfly was posting that I believed and taught those errors. He apologized for his misunderstanding and I suspect that as he reads your entire post, he will realize that what he understood was not what you had actually said.

We who are conservative in our understanding of Salvation and spiritual life in Christ Jesus, tend to go on the attack when we PERCEIVE error in presentation of Scriptural Truth. That attack mode tends to cloud our eyes and our understanding of what we are reading. We focus on the snipppet of error and sometimes miss the Truth that follows to clarify the statements. We all have that filter system built in. In the military and in law enforcement we call that "tunnel vision" and tunnel vision will get you killed or hurt. On here and forums like this where we cannot carry on a conversation verbally, all at the same time, understanding is sometimes sacrificed. We do not see facial expression, raised eyebrows, hear voice inflections. It is difficult to know when someone is "tongue in cheek".

So, it is necessary, IMO, to be very careful in how we word what we say. This is especially true of me. From my background I tend to raise eyebrows, wink, roll eyes, etc. when I am discussing those whom I think are so open-minded that their brains have fallen out on the sidewalk and their views of life and the truth. Nobody on here can see or hear those. The other issue, is that none of us know how thick or thin skinned any of us are in reality. I seldom ever take offense at anything anyone says, ever, unless that person is near and dear to me; my wife, my Pastor, my closest friend, etc. Someone on a forum such as this does not have that power over me, though, I am building a relationship with one here, whom I find very grounded in the Faith. If he said something to me in PM, I would most assuredly take it to heart and consider it seriously. There is also one woman on here that holds that same respect from me. Were I to get a PM from her on my thoughts and words, I would seriously consider it and act upon it with prayer and supplication.

We all need those areas of accountability in all of our situations, as Christians.

Be blessed, my brother,
Lee52

 

[GadFly]

Robert, I am glad that you copied and pasted what you actually said. Gadfly did go back and copy and paste exactly what my post, that he misunderstood and attributed to me and saw that he was mistaken, as I was stating sarcastically, facetiously what "PC" teaches, not what Lee teaches. Gadfly was posting that I believed and taught those errors. He apologized for his misunderstanding and I suspect that as he reads your entire post, he will realize that what he understood was not what you had actually said.

We who are conservative in our understanding of Salvation and spiritual life in Christ Jesus, tend to go on the attack when we PERCEIVE error in presentation of Scriptural Truth. That attack mode tends to cloud our eyes and our understanding of what we are reading. We focus on the snipppet of error and sometimes miss the Truth that follows to clarify the statements. We all have that filter system built in. In the military and in law enforcement we call that "tunnel vision" and tunnel vision will get you killed or hurt. On here and forums like this where we cannot carry on a conversation verbally, all at the same time, understanding is sometimes sacrificed. We do not see facial expression, raised eyebrows, hear voice inflections. It is difficult to know when someone is "tongue in cheek".

So, it is necessary, IMO, to be very careful in how we word what we say. This is especially true of me. From my background I tend to raise eyebrows, wink, roll eyes, etc. when I am discussing those whom I think are so open-minded that their brains have fallen out on the sidewalk and their views of life and the truth. Nobody on here can see or hear those. The other issue, is that none of us know how thick or thin skinned any of us are in reality. I seldom ever take offense at anything anyone says, ever, unless that person is near and dear to me; my wife, my Pastor, my closest friend, etc. Someone on a forum such as this does not have that power over me, though, I am building a relationship with one here, whom I find very grounded in the Faith. If he said something to me in PM, I would most assuredly take it to heart and consider it seriously. There is also one woman on here that holds that same respect from me. Were I to get a PM from her on my thoughts and words, I would seriously consider it and act upon it with prayer and supplication.

We all need those areas of accountability in all of our situations, as Christians.

Be blessed, my brother,
Lee52

Yes, I will apologies and I will do it now. I am so very sorry Robert. Please forgive me.

Now Lee52 since you brought it up. You say you were sarcastically saying that all truth is relative but when we were debating this principle with Sent One, you did tell Sent One that not all people on the WP was not like the Gadfly. I felt singled out but I did not understand why? I did do the right thing by simply telling you I was offended. Your reply was:
1. The Gadfly's thread was not about the Gadfly, never was, never will be.
2. Although I was the only one you fellows were talking about, you lectured me for taking these comments personally. How could that be even possible?
3. You psychoanalyzed me suggesting I was narcissistic.That is a very serious diagnoses in the DSM of psychological disorders. It did make me wonder what you were condemning me for that was that serious. Judgement like that certainly has a potential to offend, don't you think?
4. You said search your heart and if the shoe fits wear it. You failed to point out what I was to be looking for when I searched my heart. I did not think that was fair. Do you think that was fair?
5. You did not stay around to discuss these accusations but ran off to start another thread on sanctification and holiness. I followed your advice but did you give me the opportunity to reply to your many unsubstantiated accusations? Dressing me down as you did, was I supposed to feel better after telling you that I was offended? That is all I did to you Lee52, I told you I was offended. Do you really believe in your sanctified heart that your answer to me was a true answer from a sanctified heart?

 

[rturner76]

I didn't mean for this thread to get sidetracked but i just wanted to say how I have learned much from Gadfly, Lee52, and Graceseeker especially and Maid Marie on a whole different level. Normally something wouldn't raise an emotional response in me but I feard that in my liberalism, I had become the adversary to some. My "brand" of liberalism is based on free will. I believe our free will is at the heart of our decision to follow Christ and his commandments. If we don't do it out of love why do we do it? I don't know exactly where in the Bible (that's where I need you guys) but I believe it talks about following Christ out of love and not out of obligation. IMHO, liberalism as it were stands for individual freedom. Add that to the number one priority which is God's will for my life, and I believe I have both the WILL to follow Christ and the POWER through him to carry that out. That's my "brand" of liberalism. I'm sure there's more to it if I were to be questioned but that is the core of it. I think we can get along within those lines.

 

[GadFly]

I didn't mean for this thread to get sidetracked but i just wanted to say how I have learned much from Gadfly, Lee52, and Graceseeker especially and Maid Marie on a whole different level. Normally something wouldn't raise an emotional response in me but I feard that in my liberalism, I had become the adversary to some. My "brand" of liberalism is based on free will. I believe our free will is at the heart of our decision to follow Christ and his commandments. If we don't do it out of love why do we do it? I don't know exactly where in the Bible (that's where I need you guys) but I believe it talks about following Christ out of love and not out of obligation. IMHO, liberalism as it were stands for individual freedom. Add that to the number one priority which is God's will for my life, and I believe I have both the WILL to follow Christ and the POWER through him to carry that out. That's my "brand" of liberalism. I'm sure there's more to it if I were to be questioned but that is the core of it. I think we can get along within those lines.

Robert, it is not you! You make an excellent response here. There is not wrong with your liberalism. As you explain it, you hang on to it. It will save you my brother.

It is the unwillingness of GraceSeeker, Lee52, and the Gadfly to confess our sins that has troubled your house. We have troubled you and many who post on these threads with our self righteousness. I might simply be the first one to step up to acknowledge my sins but we all must go home some day and face the good Lord and if we do not confess our pride of life, some of us will not make it home. Check out my last post on Lee's thread on sanctification. That explains my position and it should be everyone's position.

 

[GadFly]

Just think! What if the worst thing that happens on this and other thread is that each of us discovers that we all have sinned? What if any one of us admit our sins, repent, and become better Christians as a result? Does that mean anything at all to the sanctification and holiness movement in the Church? Check out these threads on sanctification and insist on your leader walking in the holiness they preach. This pretend stuff of religion is worthless. Nothing is of value without Christ's love being the true salt.

 

[rturner76]

Now that is the Gadfly I have learned much from on my CF journey....If Christ is at the heart of what we do, repentance is learned from and becomes virtuous in our desire to have our eyes opened and not commit the same sin in the future no matter what the sin be.

 

[Lee52]

I didn't mean for this thread to get sidetracked but i just wanted to say how I have learned much from Gadfly, Lee52, and Graceseeker especially and Maid Marie on a whole different level. Normally something wouldn't raise an emotional response in me but I feard that in my liberalism, I had become the adversary to some. My "brand" of liberalism is based on free will. I believe our free will is at the heart of our decision to follow Christ and his commandments. If we don't do it out of love why do we do it? I don't know exactly where in the Bible (that's where I need you guys) but I believe it talks about following Christ out of love and not out of obligation. IMHO, liberalism as it were stands for individual freedom. Add that to the number one priority which is God's will for my life, and I believe I have both the WILL to follow Christ and the POWER through him to carry that out. That's my "brand" of liberalism. I'm sure there's more to it if I were to be questioned but that is the core of it. I think we can get along within those lines.

Brother Robert, we would call that liberty, or libertarian Christianity, not liberalism. Christ came to set us free from sin and death. He came that we might live in freedom from man's bondage to one another in situational rules that seek power over others as their goals.

IMO, the liberalism that is being addressed, perhaps attacked, is that liberal theology that seeks to diminish Christ's sacrifice and Jesus Christ as being the only way to attain renewed, restored relationship with our Father GOD. The liberalism that I believe Gadfly is talking about is that which waters down the gospel. And that liberalism is "infesting" many of our main-stream congregations and denominations. They are no longer willing to call sin what it is, sin.

Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[Lovely Lane]

Brother Robert, we would call that liberty, or libertarian Christianity, not liberalism. Christ came to set us free from sin and death. He came that we might live in freedom from man's bondage to one another in situational rules that seek power over others as their goals.

IMO, the liberalism that is being addressed, perhaps attacked, is that liberal theology that seeks to diminish Christ's sacrifice and Jesus Christ as being the only way to attain renewed, restored relationship with our Father GOD. The liberalism that I believe Gadfly is talking about is that which waters down the gospel. And that liberalism is "infesting" many of our main-stream congregations and denominations. They are no longer willing to call sin what it is, sin.

Be blessed,
Lee52

'libertarian Christianity'. That makes sense. That liberal stuff about diminishing Christ's sacrifice is not good, as is that fundamentalism stuff that hardens my heart.

 

[rturner76]

Back on the subject of Liberal Theology in the Church. There should never be one single philosophy of how to approach others when attempting to bring non believers to Christ. I believe it's the reason why there were 12 disciples. Of course it represents the 12 tribes of Israel but 12 people have 12 different life experiences and 12 different approaches to making deciples. Some would be more concerned with the law, some more concerned with a spirtual connection to Christ, some about love, some about golden rule and I could go on.

This is why I believe there is a place for liberalism in the church. Should it take over the church and be the sole philosophy? Absolutely not! There must be a Christian philosophy that embraces all people, no matter their situation or lifestyle. this goes back to the freedom of choice I wrote about earlier. If you take for example a "homosexual" who may have been treated harshly by a fundamental church and has not experienced love in a church. Someone with a liberal philosophy will embrace this person WHERE THEY ARE. They can begin to feel the unconditional love of Christ through his representatives here on Earth. There are many body parts in the body of Christ, all with their own function. Some are for pure knowledge, some are for devotion, some are for love and so on. We need fundamentals, liberals, moderates, Orthadox, Roman, Pentacostals, Methodists, Holiness, and every other movement because it simply is another movement toward more people in the fold. We don't change what Christ said, we just may focus on one aspect more than others like a liberal such as myself may focus on love. I don't feel adequate to teach much about anything of the Church other than love everyone your neighbor and your enemy. That is the focus of my personal relationship with Christ. Everything else comes out of that. If I am more obedient it is out of love for my savior. A liberal may be able to reach out to the most what we would consider "far gone" soul through their interpretation and that person through love may change their ways on their own through the love they find in us and in Christ.

I'm losing my track so I'll end there but I think we need to learn and understand one another's approach to discipleship weather it be fundamental or liberal or in between, playing off each other's strengths will be the best for the kingdom rather than tearing each other down.

 

[Lovely Lane]

I don't like placing labels on anyone. Maybe labels are for the theologians and professor's to describe many different ideas, practices, theories, ect. I think they need to keep their terms in the seminaries and universities.

It's a bunch of junk when professor's receive tenor and academic acclaim for writing papers and maybe publish a book and some theologians receive monies in publishing books, even may become famous and make it to the talk shows.

The only books and terminology I need to know come from the four gospels. I do not need a professor or minister to use flowery terms. fancy words, sermons that are short on gospel teachings and long on personal opinion. Most use labels in the pejorative form, of what I see.

Whatever Jesus is, so am I. Just because folk call their church a church don't make it so.

Labels are good for knowing expiration dates on food and milk, I admit to that.

 

[GadFly]

I don't like placing labels on anyone. Maybe labels are for the theologians and professor's to describe many different ideas, practices, theories, ect. I think they need to keep their terms in the seminaries and universities.

It's a bunch of junk when professor's receive tenor and academic acclaim for writing papers and maybe publish a book and some theologians receive monies in publishing books, even may become famous and make it to the talk shows.

The only books and terminology I need to know come from the four gospels. I do not need a professor or minister to use flowery terms. fancy words, sermons that are short on gospel teachings and long on personal opinion. Most use labels in the pejorative form, of what I see.

Whatever Jesus is, so am I. Just because folk call their church a church don't make it so.

Labels are good for knowing expiration dates on food and milk, I admit to that.

Your wisdom is very good. The thing about God is that he is so big that we all can have many good and different ideas and still be in Christ with our thinking. But no idea that we have that singles others out as less of a person for serving God and choosing him as our premise for life is part of the Christian philosophy. Thanks for posting on this thread.

 

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[Criada]

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[Basil the Great]

Liberal Theology has always seem to arise of the ashes of a failing Christian church, and out of its Theological Schools. Churchmen have always caved into false doctrine in hopes of maintaining a dying church. In reality they would have been better off to have let the organization die and returned to the Bible, and the teaching of Jesus Christ.

When Christian ministers have failed to preach the full gospel of Jesus Christ sin has slipped into the pulpits and from the pulpits into the church board, and on into the pews. It would have been better to have fired the minister on the first hint of hell's damning theology and locked the church doors.

We need to realize that Liberal theology begins with the Devil's question to Eve "...hath God said........?" Genesis 3:1

It appears the same question is usually on the liberals lips just before the church steps on to the icy slopes of damnation.

The modern liberal breaks forth with:

Creations as the Bible teaches is questionable.
God's opening of the Red Sea for the Israelites can't be true.
A loving God would never send a sinful unrepeated man to Hell, so there can't really be a Hell.
Jesus never really died and rose again, he just swooned away to return from the grave.
As long as you live a good life you'll make it through some how.

By the end of the last century the weekly prayer meeting was replaced by busy week day plans, Bible studies gave way to kid's hockey practices, and the Sunday nite service was replaced by gatherings of friends or another evening of smutty sex filled, gangster killing booze advertising Hollywood T.V. shows.

Gospel hymns were replaced in most churches by chorus which praised the man in the pew more than the God and Saviour of Heaven.

Liberal theology is rampant in all Christian denominations of the 21st century. If there is not a revival to Biblical teaching and beliefs there may well not be a Biblical Christian church with a message of salvation when we cross the threshold of 22nd century.

Now that last paragraph is very profound indeed. I do not know about the last statement, but there is absolutely no doubt that liberal theology is rampant in virtually all Christian denominations in the 21st century. However, some of this "liberalism" is a good thing. I especially refer to the willingness of most Prtoestants, Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics to now accept each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. This was not the case a few generations ago.

 

[GadFly]

Now that last paragraph is very profound indeed. I do not know about the last statement, but there is absolutely no doubt that liberal theology is rampant in virtually all Christian denominations in the 21st century. However, some of this "liberalism" is a good thing. I especially refer to the willingness of most Prtoestants, Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics to now accept each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. This was not the case a few generations ago.

It is a good thing when we accept each other as brothers and sisters in the faith! Amen to all that.