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Dangerous Flu Vaccine coming soon.....

Discussion in 'Fitness, Health & Nutrition' started by GodbetheGlory, Aug 22, 2010.

  1. GodbetheGlory

    GodbetheGlory Junior Member

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    If vaccines are so effective then why are you so worried about people who dont get them?
    I'm not getting the flu shot and i'm not worried about the flu because i take great care of my health.
     
  2. lemmings

    lemmings Veteran

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    Herd immunity requires that a large portion of the population (70-90%) has the immunity. This acts as a firebreak against infection because one infected individual will only be able to go into contact with a limited number of individuals without the immunity (and thus will continue the infection). Some regions however have very large populations who do not vaccinate so when an infection gets to these zones, it spreads rapidly. This can be seen in my state (California) where we are encountering the largest outbreak of whooping cough in half a century because of the anti-vaccination groups here.


    Cool, wash your hands, stay home sick when necessary, and please inform those around you that you are a transmission vector for disease so they don't shake your hands or sit near you.
     
  3. Preecher

    Preecher Member

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    Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the swine flu vaccine kill more than the swine flu?
     
  4. lemmings

    lemmings Veteran

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    The 1918 flu pandemic was closely related to the current swine flu. Roughly a hundred million died. Very few deaths have ever been attributed to vaccines and the most probable cause is the side effects which are far more mild than the actual disease that they are used to prevent.
     
  5. GodbetheGlory

    GodbetheGlory Junior Member

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    What about the fact that outbreaks always seem to occur in the most vaccinated areas?

    Out of those kids that got the Whooping cough do you know how many were vaccinated vs not vaccinated?
    Do you know if they got B. parapertussis or B. pertussis which both cause whooping cough?

    So because I'm a very healthy adult male who didnt get the flu vaccine I'm a vector for disease? Where is that logic coming from?

    Before you shake someones hand are you going to ask them if they got a flu shot?
    Are you one of those people who walk around with a mask on and gloves to prevent from coming in contact with germs?
     
  6. GodbetheGlory

    GodbetheGlory Junior Member

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    You're correct.
    1979 and 2009 are good example (1918 was about 100 years ago and was a different virus plus conditions were very different then especially since a World War had just taken place).
     
  7. Preecher

    Preecher Member

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    Seems that I read that many health care workers refused the latest flu vaccines.
     
  8. Etsi

    Etsi Newbie

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    In your opinion. The medical community is extremely at odds on this one even.
     
  9. Etsi

    Etsi Newbie

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    This is because many are mis-reported or have even had doctors acknowledge that it was due to vaccines, but the main cause of death is listed as something else. For example, if my daughter had died, they would have listed her as SIDS, not death due to vaccine related chronic apnea even though that was her diagnosis.
     
  10. rockaction

    rockaction Active Member

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    Doctors are the worst patients.

    When there is good public health initiatives in areas, there are good vaccination rates. It really isn't doctors who push the vaccines, it's public health officials.

    Hey, I said the vaccine protects against HPV, and you were a debbie-downer about it and simply said that monogamy protects against HPV. It's obvious that monogamy protects against STIs, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't use condoms or be vaccinated against HPV. It's a good fall-back in case something goes wrong.

    Also, the statistics are not my opinion. Also, everyone who died who received the vaccine, whether the death was related or not to the vaccine, was reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System. Don't try to pretend people sweep this under the rug.
     
  11. rockaction

    rockaction Active Member

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    Every person who died that had the HPV shot was reported to VAERS. Even if the death was unrelated or attributed to something else. Researchers then examined the deaths to see if they were related to the vaccine. 93% of the deaths of people who got the vaccine were completely unrelated to the vaccine, and the other 7% are unknown.
     
  12. Etsi

    Etsi Newbie

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    Of the HPV vaccine. Exactly. How unfortunate that the same can't be said of other vaccines.
     
  13. rockaction

    rockaction Active Member

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    It's because it's a new vaccine without a track record other than clinical trials.

    The flu vaccine is tried and true, and about as safe as vaccines get (for most people). Year to year, all they change is the antigens they use.
     
  14. Gishin

    Gishin Well-Known Member

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  15. Etsi

    Etsi Newbie

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    You can't compare a country in Africa with the US. There are many other factors and variables at play, mainly nutrition and sanitation.

    Many of the whooping cough outbreaks in the US have been in vaccinated populations. Even when I was a kid, it went through a very well vaccinated community I was living in (I had been vaccinated with all the boosters, military is pretty hefty on them, and still caught it).

    There is a case of measles that took place in a secluded community in IL years ago, but there was also the issue of the same community refusing standard medical treatment for this common childhood disease.
     
  16. Etsi

    Etsi Newbie

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    Thank you for adding this portion. This small tidbit is why I believe individuals and parents should be informed of the risks and why I believe that it should be a decision based on the individual's medical and family history.

    Again, I am NOT completely anti-vax. I'm against people not educating themselves and against those that think the populace should just fall in line like a bunch of sheep. My oldest will probably be going to Mexico next year to work for a summer. Given that he is older than the sister that reacted, that he did not have the same experience as her, given that he is near grown (thus increasing his tolerance), and given the risks in that country with the type of work he will be doing, he will receive selective vaccinations before going (and deworming upon coming home to prevent risk of any parasites he could easily acquire).

    My biggest issue is making an INFORMED decision (and I really don't care what you decide for yourself and your family, as long as you are looking at all sides, pros and cons) and that we don't broadbrush about an entire populace.
     
  17. lemmings

    lemmings Veteran

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    The last major outbreak in the United States occurred 5 years ago. 34 got sick, from one individual who had who had been on travel. Of those who had gotten sick, 32 had been eligible to be vaccinated, 2 where too young to be vaccinated. Of the 32 whom had be eligible, only 2 had ever had the shot and 2 where unknown. The remaining 28 people, they had either opted out, or more likely, their parents had opted out for them.

    Herd immunity requires something like 90% of the population for whooping cough. In California, vaccination rates are about 50% and that is why we have had over 4,000 cases in this year alone.

    The case I referenced came from Indiana, perhaps this is the same one since the standard medical treatment for measles since the vaccine was developed has been vaccination of children before they catch it. It was shown quite effective in creating an immunity in 95% of the population in the first shot, and something in excess of 99% with the booster. Effectively the disease went from a few hundred thousand cases per year to a few dozen over night in the United States.

    Unfortunately, when people see this, and when anti-vaccination groups have demonized doctors so much over the last few decades, the reaction is not, "lets see what the doctor says." Rather it is that their special snowflake is going to be the 1 in a hundred thousand that actually had a side effect. The problem is though, this reaction occurs in half the population. Suddenly, the message becomes quite dangerous because herd immunity can no longer protect those who have legitimate issues with vaccination.



    Seatbelt analogy: Most people agree that seatbelts save lives, and as a result, most people will use them and just about everyone teaches their kids to use them. However, I can present you a situation in which a car had driven off a leave into water. The speed of the crash would not have been fast enough to harm the driver, even without the seatbelt. But the seatbelt jams because they are not designed to function while submerged and the driver in panicked. suddenly that seatbelt that would have saved his life in 99% of other cases will kill him.

    Now, should drivers be informed that this can happen to you? yes, it is design flaw in seatbelt design that needs to be addressed and those living in areas with large bodies of water nearby can purchase tools for this situation. The human reaction is not rational though and suddenly half of the population will stop wearing seatbelts. Now you can clearly see why this is bad as any good that may have come from the warning is outweighed by far more casualties from people who had never even been threatened. This is how parents have treated vaccinations over the last two decades or so.
     
  18. GodbetheGlory

    GodbetheGlory Junior Member

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    You keep using the Seatbelt analogy but you cant compare the two.
    Seatbelts clearly sale many more lives then they hurt. While with vaccines, especially that flu vaccine, there is no evidence they save lives. The evidence shows they don't.
    But there is lots of evidence they have side effects and kill people.
     
  19. rockaction

    rockaction Active Member

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    Coming from the person who doesn't believe that HIV causes AIDS and believes that sound waves can cure cancer. Yeah. Sure.

    The problem is that you don't critically analyze the illegitimate sources you come in contact with that say the flu vaccine is harmful. And for some reason you don't think the peer-reviewed literature is good enough to provide evidence of efficacy and safety. Basically, there is no way on earth anyone could ever convince you that vaccines work and are safe, because you are so narrow-minded that you refuse to listen to what the other side is saying.
     
  20. lemmings

    lemmings Veteran

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    You know, there is a very simple way that you can test this. Look at the mortality rate for diseases before and after a vaccine was introduced, and then look at the mortality rate attributed to the vaccine itself.


    If you want, I can do this for you. VAERS provides access to the raw data on their site so if you give me about 12 hours or so to complete my daily tasks I'll crunch the numbers for you for 50560 incidents reported in the VAERS database last year. Just list the vaccine (H1N1, Flu, HPV, MMR,...) and what symptoms you want me to look for (paralysis, death,sore throat,...) and I will find the numbers for you.

    data
     
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