Dancing the Night Away, With a Higher Purpose

PassionFruit

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COLORADO SPRINGS — In their floor-length gowns, up-dos and tiaras, the 70 or so young women swept past two harpists and into a gilt-and-brocade dining room at the lavish Broadmoor Hotel, on the arms of their much older male companions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/19/us/19purity.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

I'm all for girls having close relationships with their fathers, but does it have to involve a girl's sexuality?
 

IisJustMe

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http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/19/us/19purity.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

I'm all for girls having close relationships with their fathers, but does it have to involve a girl's sexuality?
Purity and sexuality are not the same thing. I'm amazed the Times came all the way out here for this story. I"ll guarantee you there are formal celebrations like this going on in New York City. This is about a father setting an example for his children. It's about being sexually pure in your marriage if you're going to preach sexual purity until marriage to your daughter -- or your son, for that matter. You have a problem with that?

By the way, forum rules state you have to use the title of the article for your thread title. The Times didn't "take on" this trend. Looks to me like a fair treatment of the event. If you don't understand something, don't comment on it.
 
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Sojourner1

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The FSG's state: 10. Only use the article title for a thread title. If the article title is a rule violation of any CF rule, staff has the discretion to edit the thread title. Also note that if the article title is inflaming or otherwise offensive, and the thread itself becomes rife with rules violations, those posts will be subject to staff action and the thread being closed.

I have changed the thread title to the original article title.
 
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PassionFruit

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The reason why the thread is titled "takes on" because other newspapers have done stories on this, before NYTimes, so they're finally doing a story on it.

It's about being sexually pure in your marriage if you're going to preach sexual purity until marriage to your daughter -- or your son, for that matter. You have a problem with that?

I don't know why you're getting all hostile, for one there are no such balls for boys, so it's a double standard to preach 'sexual purity' to girls and not boys. They have "Integrity Ball" but it's not the same as 'purity balls.' I don't have a problem with people being sexual pure until marriage if that's their choice I have no problem with it. So how come it is stressed for girls to remain pure and not boys? And how many of these girls are really going to keep their pledge to remain pure? I bet half of them will engage in premarital sex.

Do you have a problem with people choosing to have premarital promiscuous sex, are they immoral? But I have no problem with people choosing to wait until their married, seems like you made another false assumption about me. And there's no need for you to act hostile towards me.

Also, the issue behind these balls is that it teaching that if a girl has premarital sex, she is called "damaged goods." Which isn't fair, it seems that the fathers are pledging ownership to their daughters bodies, until she's married.

If a father wants to set an example for his children, why does it have to involve them being pure? If the father had premarital sex how is that setting an example?
 
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Washington

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PassionFruit said:
I don't know why you're getting all hostile,
Boy, isn't that the truth. Talk about coming out swinging. You must have really hit IisJustMe's sore spot.



I don't have a problem with people being sexual pure until marriage if that's their choice I have no problem with it. So how come it is stressed for girls to remain pure and not boys? And how many of these girls are really going to keep their pledge to remain pure? I bet half of them will engage in premarital sex.
From an article I just came across:

There is no data on whether girls who attend purity balls remain abstinent until marriage; chances are many do, given the tight-knit communities they live in. But there is striking evidence that more than half of teens who take virginity pledges—at, say, rallies or events—go on to have sex within three years, according to findings of the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health, the most comprehensive survey of teens ever taken. And 88 percent of the pledgers surveyed end up having sex before marriage. “No pledge can counter the fact that teenagers are, in fact, sexual beings postpuberty,” notes Cary Backenger, a clinical psychotherapist in Appleton, Wisconsin, who works with teens, including several who have taken virginity pledges. “You can’t turn that off.”
Disturbingly, the adolescent health study also found that STD rates were significantly higher in communities with a high proportion of pledgers. “Pledgers are less likely than nonpledgers to use condoms, so if they do have sex it is less safe,” says Peter Bearman, Ph.D., a Columbia University sociologist who helped design the study. For these teens, he believes, it’s a mind game: If you have condoms, you were planning to have sex. If you don’t, sex wasn’t premeditated, which makes it more OK. The study also found that even pledgers who remained virgins were highly likely to have oral and anal sex—risky behavior given that most probably didn’t use condoms to cut their risk.

“Virginity pledges set girls up for failure,” contends [Don] Kindlon [Ph.D., a Harvard-based psychologist who did in-depth interviews with 113 girls and teens for his new book, Alpha Girls, who specializes in adolescent behavior.] “I like the father-daughter bonding part of the balls, but it is unfortunate that it is around a pledge that is doomed. I always counsel parents to try to encourage teens to delay sex. But when you completely forbid teens to be sexual, it can do them more harm than good. It’s like telling kids not to eat candy, and then they want it more.”

“When you sign a pledge to your father to preserve your virginity, your sexuality is basically being taken away from you until you sign yet another contract, a marital one,” worries Eve Ensler, the writer and activist. “It makes you feel like you’re the least important person in the whole equation. It makes you feel invisible.”

source
If the father had premarital sex how is that setting an example?
My thought is that remaining a virgin before one is married is hardly the same as remaining sexually faithful to one's spouse. There is no example being set because the two aren't equivalent. It's like trying to convince your son not to get his driver's licence by pledging that you will drive carefully. It just doesn't compute no matter how much one may wish it does. Ah, whishful thinking; the downfall of the self deluded.
 
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TexasSky

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If you read all of the article, you would find the following paragraph:

Abstinence is never mentioned at the Colorado Springs Purity Ball, but a litany of fathers’ duties is — mainly, making time to get involved in their daughters’ lives and setting an example.

Also from the article
Her father, Jim, said he brought her to show her how much he cherished her after almost losing her in a car accident two years ago.

And this:
Stephen Clark, 64, came to the ball for the first time with Ashley Avery, 17, who is “promised” to his son, Zane, 16. Mr. Clark brought Ashley, in her white satin gown, to show her that he loved her like a daughter, he said, something he felt he needed to underscore after Ashley’s father left her family a year ago.

And this:
Recent studies have suggested that close relationships between fathers and daughters can reduce the risk of early sexual activity among girls and teenage pregnancy.

Seems to me a LOT of good comes out of this ball.
 
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IisJustMe

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Seems to me a LOT of good comes out of this ball.
Amen. And it is apparent there are two people on this thread that don't have a clue as to what it's about. As I said, if you don't understand something, don't comment on it.
 
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moonkitty

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I don't think there is anything wrong or immoral with the whole "purity" balls--but I think they are rather creepy. But that is just my opinion. I wouldn't have went even if my father had wanted to. (of course the main reason is that hated at that age, and still hate wearing a dress and looking all fancy---bleh) Also my purity or lack of purity as well as who I choose to have sex with is MY business, not my fathers.
 
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moonkitty

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And this:
Recent studies have suggested that close relationships between fathers and daughters can reduce the risk of early sexual activity among girls and teenage pregnancy.

Seems to me a LOT of good comes out of this ball.

But it is followed by: "But studies have also shown that most teenagers who say they will remain abstinent, like those at the ball, end up having sex before marriage, and they are far less likely to use condoms than their peers."
 
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PassionFruit

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Amen. And it is apparent there are two people on this thread that don't have a clue as to what it's about. As I said, if you don't understand something, don't comment on it.

Yeah, but like I said, does it have to involve a girl pledging her virginity to her father? There are many ways in which fathers can develop close relationships with their daughters, there's no one here who is objecting to that. It just shouldn't involve her virginity, and you didn't answer my question, how come it is stressed more for girls to remain virgins? I think we all understand what's going on here quite well. You're really in no position to tell what they can and cannot comment on.

But it is followed by: "But studies have also shown that most teenagers who say they will remain abstinent, like those at the ball, end up having sex before marriage, and they are far less likely to use condoms than their peers."

The reason why they're less likely to use condoms is because for one they're taught that condoms don't work. So when they become sexually active they're not going to use any form of protection. I guess the thinking behind this is, lets just hope they remain abstinent until they're married.
 
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DeathMagus

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But it is followed by: "But studies have also shown that most teenagers who say they will remain abstinent, like those at the ball, end up having sex before marriage, and they are far less likely to use condoms than their peers."

But that's ok because condoms are a sin.;)

In my own opinion, I don't mind these balls all that much. They do provide some rather good experiences, and the parts I disagree with would be taught to the young ladies anyway.

I'm not thrilled, but I'll save my outrage for other, more important topics. This is, I think, relatively harmless.
 
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platzapS

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It's not just creepy, it's wrong. It tells girls that the most important part of sexuality is keeping "purity" until marriage, which just sets the vast majority of girls up for failure, unnecessary guilt, and ignorance.

I wouldn't even want to marry someone who'd never had sex before.
 
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Washington

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If you read all of the article, you would find the following paragraph:

Abstinence is never mentioned at the Colorado Springs Purity Ball, but a litany of fathers’ duties is — mainly, making time to get involved in their daughters’ lives and setting an example.

So what if the word is never mentioned? The article certainly understands the thrust of the whole occasion.

"The gesture signaled that the fathers would guard their daughters from what evangelicals consider a profoundly corrosive “hook-up culture.” The evening, which alternated between homemade Christian rituals and giddy dancing, was a joyous public affirmation of the girls’ sexual abstinence until they wed.
And this from my Glamour link:
Pastor Randy Wilson, host of the event and cofounder of the ball, strides to the front of the room, takes the microphone and asks the men, “Are you ready to war for your daughters’ purity?”

Wilson’s voice is jovial, yet his message is serious—and spreading like wildfire. Dozens of these lavish events are held every year, mainly in the South and Midwest, from Tucson to Peoria and New Orleans, sponsored by churches, nonprofit groups and crisis pregnancy centers. The balls are all part of the evangelical Christian movement, and they embody one of its key doctrines: abstinence until marriage.

Randy Wilson’s 19-year-old, Khrystian, is typical: She works at her church, spends most weekends at home with her family and has never danced with a male other than her father or brother. Emily Smith, an 18-year-old I meet, says that even kissing is out for her. “I made a promise to myself when I was younger,” she says, “to save my first kiss for my wedding day.” A tenet of the abstinence movement is that having lovers before marriage often leads to divorce.

source
 
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Robbie_James_Francis

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Did they go out and sacrifice a virgin afterwards to ensure a bountiful harvest? Or perhaps publicly stone any vessel, err...woman, who had tainted the tribe by 'dishonouring' her 'purity'?

They really might as well write down 'my daughter's freedom to control her own life' on a bit of paper and hand it to her new owner, err..I mean husband, when she gets married.
 
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katautumn

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If you read all of the article, you would find the following paragraph:

Abstinence is never mentioned at the Colorado Springs Purity Ball, but a litany of fathers’ duties is — mainly, making time to get involved in their daughters’ lives and setting an example.

Also from the article
Her father, Jim, said he brought her to show her how much he cherished her after almost losing her in a car accident two years ago.

And this:
Stephen Clark, 64, came to the ball for the first time with Ashley Avery, 17, who is “promised” to his son, Zane, 16. Mr. Clark brought Ashley, in her white satin gown, to show her that he loved her like a daughter, he said, something he felt he needed to underscore after Ashley’s father left her family a year ago.

And this:
Recent studies have suggested that close relationships between fathers and daughters can reduce the risk of early sexual activity among girls and teenage pregnancy.

Seems to me a LOT of good comes out of this ball.

Am I the only person who finds it appalling that two teenagers are "promised" to one another at such a young age?
 
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SallyNow

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So the fathers want to protect their girl's purity by dressing them up like women and publicly declaring the state of their daughter's sex life?

Sounds a bit strange to me. The proven way to keep girls out of trouble is to keep them in healthy hobbies, not proclaim them this-and-that in front of other people.

Purity is a private matter, and it shouldn't be put out in the open, as a celebration of the father. It is the girl's responsibility as to what they do sexually. Their parents can guide them, but it is ultimatly up to them. Girls are also (often) more likely to talk about sexual issues with their mothers, so why is this about the fathers?

Why not celebrate what the girls achieve? And actually celebrating the girls themselves, not the fathers, and their "achievement" of keeping their daughters pure.

Why not an actual dance competition, with the girls dancing and the parents cheering them on? Or a father-daughter sports event?

A daughter is not just a father's achievement. She is a person in her own right, and should be treated as such. She is a product of a family, not just the father, and a product of her own achievements. But really, she's not a product at all. She's a person. So why she being treated like she's a competitor at the Westminster Dog Show?
 
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IisJustMe

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Am I the only person who finds it appalling that two teenagers are "promised" to one another at such a young age?
That isn't what it means. The boy gave the girl a promise ring. That's not a commitment, that's teen dating. Give me a break, like you never dated?
 
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ladyt28

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Amen. And it is apparent there are two people on this thread that don't have a clue as to what it's about. As I said, if you don't understand something, don't comment on it.

And just how is someone supposed to learn about anything if not allowed to comment on it? Do you define "understand" as agreeing with you?

On another thread you told someone that debate is not allowed in these threads and yet it seems that this is exactly what you engage in. Others are going to have different opinions. It's one thing to disagree with them, it's another to belittle people. Can't you disagree without being disrespectful?
 
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PassionFruit

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So the fathers want to protect their girl's purity by dressing them up like women and publicly declaring the state of their daughter's sex life?

Sounds a bit strange to me. The proven way to keep girls out of trouble is to keep them in healthy hobbies, not proclaim them this-and-that in front of other people.

Purity is a private matter, and it shouldn't be put out in the open, as a celebration of the father. It is the girl's responsibility as to what they do sexually. Their parents can guide them, but it is ultimatly up to them. Girls are also (often) more likely to talk about sexual issues with their mothers, so why is this about the fathers?

Why not celebrate what the girls achieve? And actually celebrating the girls themselves, not the fathers, and their "achievement" of keeping their daughters pure.

Why not an actual dance competition, with the girls dancing and the parents cheering them on? Or a father-daughter sports event?

A daughter is not just a father's achievement. She is a person in her own right, and should be treated as such. She is a product of a family, not just the father, and a product of her own achievements. But really, she's not a product at all. She's a person. So why she being treated like she's a competitor at the Westminster Dog Show?

I think you've pretty touched upon what issues I have with these 'purity balls.' As well as the apparent double standard for girls to be 'pure.'
 
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