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Damaskinos, Divine Liturgy

Discussion in 'The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox' started by archer75, Apr 15, 2019 at 7:20 PM.

  1. archer75

    archer75 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I saw this image ("Divine Liturgy") on OrthodoxWiki. 16th century.

    This includes a depiction of the Holy Trinity, right? Although now God the Father is generally not depicted in icons, yes? Is there any other way to understand this image?

    Thank you all.
     

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  2. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    historically, that is not the Father but the pre-Incarnate Christ as the Ancient of Days.
     
  3. archer75

    archer75 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Then the figure to the left of the Holy Spirit is...? What am I missing? Or are they both depictions of Christ, incarnate on left and pre-incarnate on right?
     
  4. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    hopefully the iconographer has both being Christ as you said, since at the Ascension humanity sat down at the right hand of divinity.
     
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  5. All4Christ

    All4Christ ✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙ Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    While I hope what Fr Matt said is true, the depiction of the Ancient of Days doesn’t have the IC XC shown. That makes me think that the iconographer was illustrating God the Father as the Ancient of Days.

    See the image below of Jesus as the Ancient of Days (IC XC)

    212DEBAC-CC6D-409A-A89D-888D4CE17A5D.jpeg

    That said - Father is absolutely right that historically the Ancient of Days is the Pre-Incarnate Christ not God the Father.
     
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  6. archer75

    archer75 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You've posed my question better. I guess I meant to ask if this image might be from before there was a clear rule against depicting the Father, and that the Ancient of Days was Christ.
     
  7. All4Christ

    All4Christ ✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙ Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Well, St John of Damascus said the following: "If we attempt to make an image of the invisible God, this would be sinful indeed. It is impossible to portray one who is without body:invisible, uncircumscribed and without form."
     
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  8. All4Christ

    All4Christ ✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙ Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    The Russian Council reiterating this restriction of depicting God the Father was in 1667, so a 16th century icon would be prior to that ruling. It wasn’t a new concept though.
     
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  9. nutroll

    nutroll Veteran

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    I'd have to look through my books to find a better copy of that icon, but it looks like there is a cruciform nimbus in the halo but it is faint. Michael Damaskinos was a very skilled painter who trained with Venetian artists. His work can be very traditional or quite western. This image tends toward the latter in many respects. I wouldn't take it as a good example of iconography even though it is meticulously painted and had some very good elements.
     
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  10. buzuxi02

    buzuxi02 Veteran

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    There isn't much of a precedent of depicting God the Father in pre-16th century iconography. In the 16th century the Ancient of Days icon still used a cross in the nimbus (as the icon in the OP shows) which suggests it's Christ.
    By the time Moscow (1500) became a center of icon painting the Ancient of Days figure began being depicted with a triangular halo which signified God the Father. Prior to this in Novgorod the Ancient of Days image still sported a cross in the halo.
     
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  11. All4Christ

    All4Christ ✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙ Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Was the IC XC tradition with the Ancient of Days added for clarification after the council?
     
  12. archer75

    archer75 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That is definitely a cruciform nimbus now that you point it out, Fr Nutroll.
     
  13. buzuxi02

    buzuxi02 Veteran

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    I dont believe so. The earliest icon of the Ancient of Days housed at St. Katherine's at Mt Sinai dates from the 6-7th century and is labeled as 'Emmanuel'. The early trinity icons of Abraham's Hospitality pre-12th century will be labeled Holy Trinity but either only the center figure will have a cross in the halo or all three will and be labeled with ic xc.:
    9789004386112_webready_content_m00005.jpg figure. 65-res_fmt.png
     
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