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Curious if God preordained Hitler

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by teresa, May 21, 2018.

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  1. teresa

    teresa Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Did God knowingly create Hitler? (Jeremiah 1:5 for example)

    I'm looking for opinions, as I don't personally even begin to know how to answer this question.

    Please provide opinions and thoughts with scripture to back it up, if you are able, or refer to others.

    Thank you.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
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  2. Thedictator

    Thedictator Retired Coach, Now Missionary to the World

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    Romans 13:1-7 No one becomes a leader of a nation without God's providence. All Government leaders are put into power by God.
     
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  3. teresa

    teresa Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Does that mean that god knowingly let Hitler rise to power?

    Idk the answer, thank you for trying to help

    God bless you
     
  4. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    God did not preordain Hitler.
    People without God are inherently evil and will do evil things.
    Satan took advantage of Hitler to try to destroy the Jews and not only did he not succeed, but God used the outcome of WW2 to being back the nation of Israel again.

    Just as in Joshua when the people attacked the little town of Ai and were routed the first time.
    The second time God used that first defeat to set up Ai's ultimate defeat.

    In Judges God tells the people that they are to conquer all of the inhabitants of the Promised Land, but they don't despite God's willingness to drive them out.
    Later on, He tells them that because they didn't conquer the inhabitants, God will use them to test His people.
     
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  5. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    From the very beginning God the Father "created" knowing such a one like Hitler would in time come about... Anything beyond that, feel free to debate till the end of time, for all I care...

    God Bless!
     
  6. teresa

    teresa Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It seems like in Jeremiah He is saying he knew us first

    then He knit us together

    Why would God do this?
     
  7. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    My guess is to make something much more and far better come about in the end, even to anything that even existed in the beginning...

    Do I understand all of that, and the marvelous, mysterious ways of God doing, or in doing that, no, I don't, I just know that that must be so, God being good and all...

    God Bless!
     
  8. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Life is shout. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    No one knows. All we know is that evil is tolerated for a time, and there comes a day when evil people will reap what they sowed and no evil will exist in the eternity.
     
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  9. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    I believe in what's in the Bible, and it doesn't say we are unable to choose, but instead we are over and over warned and encouraged to choose rightly instead of wrongly....

    This means our choices are not pre determined.

    God can know our tendencies of course and also see what direction we are currently going in, of course, and knows where that leads, if we don't change.

    But He didn't make us robots unable to change, evidently, we see in scripture.
     
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  10. Lily of Valleys

    Lily of Valleys Well-Known Member

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    Jeremiah 1:5 was specifically referring to Jeremiah. Not everyone was appointed a prophet to the nations:

    Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” (Jeremiah 1:4-5 NASB)​

    Jesus said He never knew those who practice lawlessness:

    And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ (Matthew 7:23 NASB)​
     
  11. AvgJoe

    AvgJoe Member since 2005 Supporter

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    Question: "Why does God allow evil men like Hitler and Saddam to come into power?"

    Answer:
    The Bible says that God is sovereign. This means that He is ultimately in control of everything, not just some things. He is in control of the weather (Psalm 148:8), life and death (Psalm 104:29-30), and even seemingly inconsequential happenings (Proverbs 16:33). God’s sovereignty extends to the rulers of nations. “Wisdom and power are his. He changes times and seasons; he sets up kings and deposes them” (Daniel 2:20-21). One hundred, fifty years before the birth of Cyrus the Great, God was already calling him by name and promising to set him on the throne of Persia: “I will raise up Cyrus in my righteousness” (Isaiah 45:13). God’s sovereign plan allows for the pagan Cyrus, the proud Nebuchadnezzar, and, yes, the Hitlers and Husseins of the world.

    Romans 13:1 tells us, “There is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.” This is a startling statement, given that the book of Romans was probably written in A.D. 56-57. The emperor at the time was Nero, a decidedly evil ruler. Nero led one of the severest persecutions of Christians in the history of the church. When Paul wrote this portion of Scripture, he was aware of Nero’s wickedness, yet he does not question why God put him in power. In fact, Paul never mentions Nero specifically; the general truth that authorities are “established by God” applies to all rulers everywhere.

    In Acts 8, we see that governing authorities led a persecution against the early church. It was a hard time, and there were probably believers who began to doubt God’s sovereignty or question His care. Yet, the persecution had the effect that the church in Jerusalem was “scattered throughout Judea and Samaria” (verse 1). Thus, in part because of evil men in places of authority, the Great Commission was put into action, the gospel spread, and the church grew.

    God does not explicitly say why He allows evil men to rule. At times, God has used evil rulers to bring judgment on His people and bring them back to righteousness. It is worth noting that all rulers are accountable to God for their actions. For example, God raised up Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon in order to punish Judah for their repeated idolatry (2 Kings 20:17-18). Later, after Babylon had fulfilled its purpose, it was judged for its own wickedness (Isaiah 13:19; 14:4). Their king, Nebuchadnezzar, suffered an individual judgment (Daniel 4). God did the same with Assyria, allowing its rise for a purpose, and then judging that nation’s pride and cruelty (Isaiah 10:5-19).

    God sometimes allows an evil kaiser, czar, fuehrer, sultan, or despot to rule, and the reasons for His choice are not readily apparent. But we know this: God always sets boundaries for the potentates (see Psalm 74:12-17). Human rulers are not omnipotent, they are not eternal, and they are not immune from punishment. There will be a day of reckoning. Rulers who die in their sins will face the ultimate punishment, eternity in hell. Hitler, Lenin, and others who have rejected Christ and abused the people of God have been serving their sentence in hell for a long time.

    www.gotquestions.org/Hitler-Saddam.html
     
  12. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    Everything that has happened has already happened.

    This "life" is our opportunity to see why we deserve to be in Heaven or Hell - which is why faith is a gift, and you cannot get it on your own accord, but only by the choice of the Most High God.

    Hitler was clearly ordained/allowed in this iteration of life, because it happened. Nothing that is outside of the will of the Most High happens.




    Wheat has to grow with tares until Harvest (Judgment. ) They will be reaped then - to prevent taking out good wheat when uprooting weeds. This is why "God 'allows' evil."
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
  13. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    But "why" we "deserve either" (I feel is important to note) is due to "a choice by God and not us", and that might be difficult to understand, and we may not be able to fully understand it till the judgement...

    God Bless!
     
  14. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    No Christian can in the very least deny that God allowed Hitler to become what he became.
    No Christian who believes omniscience entails God knowing every detail of the future can deny God knew every detail about Hitler before he would ever be born including all of his family genealogy.
    Where Christians may differ on would be in whether God was directly or indirectly involved (or both at different points and times) in the experiences that conditioned the man to be what he became.
    One thing seems clear to me, God did not restrain Hitler to the extent He restrains the sins of other men more commonly. For reasons mostly unknown, God allowed such devastating evil to abound in that region of the world for a time at a particular time in history. In some sense, we have to accept that it was the will of God. At any time God could have prevented Hitler from becoming what he became. Yes God allowed it all, while being powerful enough to prevent any of it from occurring. Whatever He is powerful enough to prevent, but does not, is His will in the sense of allowing it to occur, but not His will in the sense that any should transgress His Holy law. To get a better idea of what is going on in the one will of God, here is a quote from an article that might be helpful:

    "The Bible speaks of the "will of God" in several different ways, and it is important to understand the differences.

    (1) The decreed will of God. This is God's eternal, foreordained plan and purpose, which will not change and cannot be thwarted. It includes our salvation (Ephesians 1:3-6, etc.) and His choice and calling of Israel (Romans 11:1-2, 29). God's covenant purposes and promises are a part of His decree, and He will not and cannot "change His mind" about these things (see Exodus 32:13). (If you look at verse 14 of Exodus 32, you might say, "But, look, God did change His mind!" No He didn't. The text says that God "changed His mind" about destroying Israel, and making a new nation of Moses. Moses' whole argument is that God made a covenant, and He cannot change His mind, because He is God. God's "changing His mind about destroying Israel" is really His not changing His mind, about saving this nation and bringing them into the land, in fulfillment of His covenant with Abraham.)

    (2) There is what we might call the "perceptive will" of God. This is God's will, expressed in the form of principles or precepts given to men. The command not to murder lets us know it is God's will for us not to murder others. The command not to steal makes it clear that God's will for us is not to steal. If I say, "I have discerned that it is God's will for me to rob banks, and to kill those who get in my way", we can confidently say that is not God's will His written Word is the expression of His will. In this sense, many people are seeking God's will when it is already obvious. You don't have to pray about living with your boyfriend; God has spoken (Hebrews 13:4; 1 Corinthians 6:9-20).

    (3) There is also God's preferential (desiderative) will. This has to do with what gives God pleasure, and what does not. We know that God loves to show mercy, and yet He will execute judgment (Exodus 34:6-7). It is on this basis that Moses appeals to God to forgive Israel, not only here, but many times (see Numbers 14:17-19). Not only Moses, but others prayed that God would show mercy (Nehemiah 9; Daniel 9). God takes pleasure in the salvation of sinners; He does not take pleasure in pouring out His eternal wrath on sinners (Matthew 18:14; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9; Ezekiel 18:32; 33:11). When we come to things which are not clearly prescribed as sin, or things which are commanded, our desire should be to do that which pleases God (Romans 12:1; Colossians 1:10; 2 Corinthians 5:9; Ephesians 5:10).

    (4) There is what we might call God's "permissive will." This is what God allows, even though it is sin. God allowed Joseph's brothers to betray him, and to deceive their father, so that He might bring the Israelites (few in number) to Egypt, where God would spare them, and they would greatly multiply (Genesis 50:20). God allows man to reject the gospel, to willfully disobey His laws, to persecute the righteous, and so on. But in all of this, God is still in control, and His purposes are being accomplished. His "decretive will" often allows or permits (His permissive will) men to violate His preferential will (what gives Him pleasure) and His prescriptive will (His Word). God's permissive will is never outside His decretive will. God "permits" those things which will lead to the accomplishment of His decretive will.

    (5) There is also God's "directive will." This is God's personal guidance in our lives. It does not violate any of the "wills" above. There are times when God wants us at a certain place, doing a certain thing. The Bible most often will not provide us with this direct and personal revelation of His will. I can think of God's directive will being revealed in the "Macedonian call" (Acts 16:6-10). I can see it in the direct guidance of Philip (Acts 8:26) and of Peter and Ananias (Acts 10:1-23). God does guide us personally and directly, but it seems that this is not as common as some would like. This seems to be required at certain points of our life, when specific guidance is needed (see also 1 Timothy 4:14?).

    (6) There may be yet another category, that I might call the "discerned" will of God. This is my perception of God's will for my life, which comes through wisdom. You may wish to look at the lesson I've done on this in Proverbs." SOURCE

    These distinctions would not amount to the many wills of God, rather different aspects of one and the same will. These are the sorts of issues we run into when trying to put into human language and terms the divine realities of God.

    But then again, we have to deal with passages such as Ephesians 1:11 "Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will." While the first part of the passage is speaking about believers, the elect in Christ, the second part of the verse quoted here might be debatable as a proof text, it could be argued "all things" for the elect according to His will.

    However we still have to deal with the fact God is sovereign, all knowing, and all powerful, and isn't so concerned about one person's "free will" that He would not violate it to save millions of lives, one might even argue that would be the most loving thing to do, so a "free will" argument cannot get a free pass here.
     
  15. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    I've heard people trying to use that passage as evidence of God "changing his mind", but I never bought it...

    God also knew that Moses would do what he did and say what he said also, so he (God) might have had the intention of sparing Israel all along, but might have had something to prove or say, or a point to make to and with Moses as well, personally to him (Moses) maybe...?

    Kinda wondering what that point might have been, if that was the case...?

    Any thoughts on that maybe...?

    God Bless!
     
  16. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Rom 13:1
    Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    All of these men were in Power of their time, God Ordained them to be in power at that time for HIS Purpose to be fulfilled in the Earth.

    We do not know what God's purpose is in any given Age, we just need to trust that God does know what He is doing and hasn't made some drastic mistake.

    Every POWER is Ordained.
    1) Pharaoh
    2) Nebuchadnezzar
    3)
    Herod
    4) Nero
    5) King George III
    6) Stalin
    7) Hitler
    8) Pol Pot


    Don't think for a minute, that just because you go into a Voting Booth, that you are the one who is putting someone into office.

    Mat. 28:18
    And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
    All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    The Ordained Powers in our Country,
    1) President
    2) Senator
    3) Congressmen
    4) Supreme Court Judge
    5) Governor
    6) Mayor
    7) City Council
    8) Police Chief
    And on and on and on.


    Rom 9:9-22
    9) For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
    10) And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
    11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.
    12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
    13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
    14) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
    15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
    16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
    17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
    18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
    19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
    20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
    21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
    22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:







     
  17. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    God sometimes uses the people to make a point to the preacher or leader sometimes, like this that I believe was happening with Moses in this instance (above)...

    Also Jonah is a good example of this also, God told Jonah that he was going to destroy Ninevah, and then he didn't, and it was all to make or prove a point or say something to the priest, pastor, prophet, leader, or teacher, namely Jonah in this instance...

    "Are you rightly hot with anger (Jonah)...?"

    God Bless!
     
  18. Inkfingers

    Inkfingers Somebody's heretic Supporter

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    Yes.

    God is the source of evil - Isaiah 45:7

    God makes evil leaders - Exodus 7:3

    Evil happens because it is part of God's plan, and it is part of God's plan because it makes good possible - Romans 8:28
     
  19. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    And to bring in, or make, or cause to come about, an even much more greater and more glorious good come out of it in the end, even more so than in the beginning, in the end...

    Though I do not claim to fully understand it/this, I do believe it and have faith in it/this and him (God) doing this (in the end) for all of us if possible... But if not, very many of us, in the end...

    God Bless!
     
  20. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    I know, many of you might be impatiently saying "when oh God, when...?"

    Just know that God is being patient with us so that many might come to or attain to repentance...

    Even Jesus himself did not know "exactly when"... I do not claim to either...

    God Bless!
     
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