CS Lewis's Fiction and its allusive character.

[dms1972]

When Lewis wrote is Narnia stories and Science Fiction novels he wrote in such a way as to try and slip past "watchful dragons". He wrote:

“I thought I saw how stories of this kind could steal past a certain inhibition which had paralysed much of my own religion in childhood. Why did one find it so hard to feel as one was told one ought to feel about God or the sufferings of Christ? I thought the chief reason was that one was told one ought to. An obligation to feel can freeze feelings. And reverence itself did harm. The whole subject was associated with lowered voices; almost as if it were something medical. But supposing that by casting all these things into an imaginary world, stripping them of their stained-glass and Sunday School associations, one could make them for the first time appear in their real potency? Could one not thus steal past those watchful dragons? I thought one could.”​

But for the last fifty years people have been making explicit by pointing out the christian themes, symbolism etc in his fiction, what Lewis deliberately left implicit in his books. I have done this myself sometimes, in a simplistic manner. But I wonder is some of this making explicit not counterproductive? To be sure Lewis does in his stories gradually make more explicit what was at first quite implicit, but its usually in quite a nuanced manner.

Thoughts?

 

[public hermit]

I don't know how much this relates, but it reminds me of the power of naming. We think if we know something's name (or give it a name), then we know it. Words, in general, do the same thing. Words function like place holders for ideas, concepts, realities. If we took the time to consider all that is related to each word used in one single sentence, it would take us all day to finish a paragraph. But, of course, that's not what we do. It's not really practical. So, we breeze across words and feel we have understood.

Maybe making explicit what was previously left implicit gives that same kind of illusion, a sense of understanding without having done the work.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Lewis was a Big Apologist for the damnable Lie Of Purgatory.....proving he was clueless about understanding True Christianity.....The Lie Of Purgatory SPITS on the Precious Blood Of Christ....

 

[Duke of Stratford]

I guess yes and no?

When I first experienced The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe, I didn’t pick up in the symbolism. I remember being shocked when an adult told me, but it clicked very well. The same thing happened when I read it to my younger sisters. I think that’s part of the beauty in Lewis’ work—creating a compelling narrative that parallels Christianity nonexplicitly. Honestly, it reminds me of Jesus’ parables: it’s a way of illustrating complex, or, as Lewis puts it, “medical,” ideas in a way people can appreciate.

But, like you say, Lewis made the parallels more explicit as the series went on, which started to take away from the “watchful dragons” idea. But he did this as the books got more mature. The Last Battle is far and away the most explicit in its religious symbolism, but it’s also a book I wouldn’t recommend to kids under the age of 12. In that respect, Lewis moves into a more mature handling of the allegory. By that point, the audience would likely have picked up on it quite well, and he’s able to tie it all together.

I think it’s good to discuss the Christian themes in an explicit manner, but when kids are reading the books, I think we should more or less let them explore it before telling them outright. Heck, I’m 22, and I’m still finding nuance to Lewis’ allusions that I didn’t notice ten years ago. He writes for children in a way that shows them respect and treats them maturely, and I think we should do the same when we show our own kids his work!

(Note: I am ALWAYS down to analyze Lewis. An imperfect man, but one God used in amazing ways!)

 

[dms1972]

Lewis was a Big Apologist for the damnable Lie Of Purgatory.....proving he was clueless about understanding True Christianity.....The Lie Of Purgatory SPITS on the Precious Blood Of Christ....

To be fair to him, he did not defend Purgatory if you mean by that, the notion that people can pay money to the Church and shorten their loved ones time in purgatory - in fact he spoke against that. He said the Reformers "had good reasons for throwing doubt on 'the Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory' as that Romish doctrine had then become." I wonder if you have read what he said on the subject? I have and I know he never defended that idea of purgatory, ie. a temporary Hell. I suggest if you haven't, you read what he actually said, you can then disagree with that if you like. Its in the book Letters to Malcolm, on Prayer chapter 20.

 

[dms1972]

I guess yes and no?

When I first experienced The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe, I didn’t pick up in the symbolism. I remember being shocked when an adult told me, but it clicked very well. The same thing happened when I read it to my younger sisters. I think that’s part of the beauty in Lewis’ work—creating a compelling narrative that parallels Christianity nonexplicitly. Honestly, it reminds me of Jesus’ parables: it’s a way of illustrating complex, or, as Lewis puts it, “medical,” ideas in a way people can appreciate.

But, like you say, Lewis made the parallels more explicit as the series went on, which started to take away from the “watchful dragons” idea. But he did this as the books got more mature. The Last Battle is far and away the most explicit in its religious symbolism, but it’s also a book I wouldn’t recommend to kids under the age of 12. In that respect, Lewis moves into a more mature handling of the allegory. By that point, the audience would likely have picked up on it quite well, and he’s able to tie it all together.

I think it’s good to discuss the Christian themes in an explicit manner, but when kids are reading the books, I think we should more or less let them explore it before telling them outright. Heck, I’m 22, and I’m still finding nuance to Lewis’ allusions that I didn’t notice ten years ago. He writes for children in a way that shows them respect and treats them maturely, and I think we should do the same when we show our own kids his work!

(Note: I am ALWAYS down to analyze Lewis. An imperfect man, but one God used in amazing ways!)

Personally I don't think it "parallels Christianity", I think it just alludes, or hints at the Christian story. I have heard others say the same they never picked up the symbolism. Its a while since I first read it.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Lewis makes the point readily in Till we have Faces, an excellent novel. Orual sees that there was more reality in the blood spattered rock of Ungit than in the fine phrases and beautiful statuary of the Fox meant to replace it. It is almost the sacramental, in which the act has more meaning than our attempts to explicate it. Experiencing a story brings more meaning than stopping to dissect it. When we have any emotion, the second you try and examine it, in effect you are stepping away from it to do so. It is the power of Myth, to fudge the barrier between the purely experiential and the explication thereof, that we can understand and experience the meaning directly ourselves. Jesus taught in parables, as often that is both more memorable and more effective. You see the same argument made by other proponents of myth, like Joseph Campbell, Karl Jung or nowadays Jordan Petersen. Over time we make explicit what was implicit in stories, how we are conditioned to seek themes in great books instead of just experiencing them first in their purely narrative form; something which today happens more with movies until the youtubers start dissecting them. Man is a storytelling creature, but each person describing or recommending a story, adds a new layer and changes it slightly. After all, Shylock in Merchant of Venice was originally seen as comedic, but today you would have difficulty ignoring his tragic aspects; as we have difficulty extricating Lewis' views from his creations today. Even criticism of Lewis alters how we read him, so for instance, it is hard to read Narnia without remembering Susan not believing when the last book concludes, and how people have perceived this as sexist or old-fashioned; or the Wittgensteinian critique levelled against him is often juxtaposed to his heavy use of symbolism in later Narnia and Till we have Faces (though I don't particularly agree here, seeing that Logres in the Space Trilogy and Pilgrim's Regress already existed).

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Personally I don't think it "parallels Christianity", I think it just alludes, or hints at the Christian story. I have heard others say the same they never picked up the symbolism. Its a while since I first read.

Lewis called it a Supposition, and balked at the use of the term Allegory (which it certainly isn't). He said suppose a world of talking animals existed and fell, how would the Incarnation or its redemption occur? This was loosely based on his childhood fancy of Animal land and his brother's of India, sort of pretend worlds they created and awkwardly merged.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

To be fair to him, he did not defend Purgatory if you mean by that, the notion that people can pay money to the Church and shorten their loved ones time in purgatory - in fact he spoke against that. He said the Reformers "had good reasons for throwing doubt on 'the Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory' as that Romish doctrine had then become." I wonder if you have read what he said on the subject? I have and I know he never defended that idea of purgatory, ie. a temporary Hell. I suggest if you haven't, you read what he actually said, you can then disagree with that if you like. Its in the book Letters to Malcolm, on Prayer chapter 20.

He devotes an entire Chapter Of His Book, “ The Joyful Christian” to the subject of Purgatory........Trust me, He “ drank the Kool-Aid”.....He says we will find being punished for our sins is a thing to be desired....utter demonic Hogwash! Jesus took our punishment on the Cross— what a splendid way to Trample the Blood Of our Savior...

 

[SPF]

He devotes an entire Chapter Of His Book, “ The Joyful Christian” to the subject of Purgatory........Trust me, He “ drank the Kool-Aid”.....He says we will find being punished for our sins is a thing to be desired....utter demonic Hogwash! Jesus took our punishment on the Cross— what a splendid way to Trample the Blood Of our Savior...

Yes, well... No apologist/theologian has everything, 100% correct. You seem really fixated on purgatory.

I agree that purgatory is not Biblical, but it's not a core doctrine, and I'll take all the other good and amazing books and great communication and accomplishments of CS Lewis all day long regardless of his view of purgatory.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Yes, well... No apologist/theologian has everything, 100% correct. You seem really fixated on purgatory.

I agree that purgatory is not Biblical, but it's not a core doctrine, and I'll take all the other good and amazing books and great communication and accomplishments of CS Lewis all day long regardless of his view of purgatory.

It’s not so much “Purgatory”...... it’s the Souls damned by it because they think they can sin with impunity as long as they are willing to pay for them at a later date.....to believe in Purgatory one proves that they are clueless as to how things work in Christianity....and this guy, Lewis writes “Christian” Books ? Give me a break....

 

[SPF]

It’s not so much “Purgatory”...... it’s the Souls damned by it because they think they can sin with impunity as long as they are willing to pay for them at a later date.....to believe in Purgatory one proves that they are clueless as to how things work in Christianity....and this guy, Lewis writes “Christian” Books ? Give me a break....

Yes, well I’ll take Lewis and Mere Christianity over you all day long

 

[Archivist]

It’s not so much “Purgatory”...... it’s the Souls damned by it because they think they can sin with impunity as long as they are willing to pay for them at a later date.....to believe in Purgatory one proves that they are clueless as to how things work in Christianity....and this guy, Lewis writes “Christian” Books ? Give me a break....

If you feel that way, perhaps you shouldn’t read his books. You will miss some good reading.

 

[dms1972]

He devotes an entire Chapter Of His Book, “ The Joyful Christian” to the subject of Purgatory........Trust me, He “ drank the Kool-Aid”.....He says we will find being punished for our sins is a thing to be desired....utter demonic Hogwash! Jesus took our punishment on the Cross— what a splendid way to Trample the Blood Of our Savior...

Give me an honest answer have you actually read what he said for yourself, or are you going by what someone else has said he said and said he meant?

I think you will find that he says we want to be purified from our sins (not punished for them and not by means of being punished, but that such purification might involve some suffering). I am trying to make it clear what he did say, you can disagree with that if you want but I think you have not understood what he was saying. I found myself I had to read it a few times to grasp his point.

Here's a fairly good explantion of it.

C.S. Lewis believed in purgatory, for heaven’s sake

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Yes, well I’ll take Lewis and Mere Christianity over you all day long

That is perfectly fine with me! Everybody has the right to be wrong .

 

[dms1972]

-

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Give me an honest answer have you actually read what he said for yourself, or are you going by what someone else has said he said and said he meant?

I think you will find that he says we want to be purified from our sins (not punished for them and not by means of being punished, but that such purification might involve some suffering). I am trying to make it clear what he did say, you can disagree with that if you want but I think you have not understood what he was saying. I found myself I had to read it a few times to grasp his point. He seems to be saying sancification continues after death, which I know is a point of disagreement between christians.

Give me an honest answer have you actually read what he said for yourself, or are you going by what someone else has said he said and said he meant?

I think you will find that he says we want to be purified from our sins (not punished for them and not by means of being punished, but that such purification might involve some 1suffering). I am trying to make it clear what he did say, you can disagree with that if you want but I think you have not understood what he was saying. I found myself I had to read it a few times to grasp his point. He seems to be saying sancification continues after death, which I know is a point of disagreement between christians.

If you feel that way, perhaps you shouldn’t read his books. You will miss some good reading.

I enjoyed reading “ The Joyful Christian”.....Lewis was a brilliant man, no doubt about that......his wisdom and his Insight were amazing , and a pleasure to read ...
I did not know near as much about the Bible 30 years ago when I read his book as I do now.....I never believed in Purgatory , but once I understood more about The Blood, the Cross , God's Grace and the writings of the Apostle Paul and His Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing, it became clear that the very “ notion” Of a place that would take care Of Sins That presumably the Blood Of Christ could not handle made me sick to my heart .Utter Blasphemy has that effect on me. It’s Treading on the Precious Blood Of our Savior......

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Give me an honest answer have you actually read what he said for yourself, or are you going by what someone else has said he said and said he meant?

I think you will find that he says we want to be purified from our sins (not punished for them and not by means of being punished, but that such purification might involve some suffering). I am trying to make it clear what he did say, you can disagree with that if you want but I think you have not understood what he was saying. I found myself I had to read it a few times to grasp his point.

Here's a fairly good explantion of it.

C.S. Lewis believed in purgatory, for heaven’s sake

Thanks , but I know EXACTLY what he said...it was Blasphemous, demonic Hog Wash.......
I always imagine Satan rolling his eyes in disbelief , thinking to himself.... “ Wow.....I cant “BELIEVE” anybody is buying this stuff !......I think for my next trick I’ll supplant Grace with “ Lucky Repentance”...... yeah .....that’ll fly!

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

-

I scarcely give thought to any of it.....As long as I am Obedient to the Gospel Of Paul, given to him personally by Jesus Christ , I am Justified , Purified ,Covered by Grace for any and all Sins that I will commit between now and when I am Called Home, I am Saved to the “ UTTERMOST”. I think that would entail everything one could ever think of.
Being Obedient to Paul’s Gospel means to REST in it, as God Commands in Heb3 . ( lest God declare you being in a state of UNBELIEF . Scary stuff. ) Some “ rest” in their Church membership.....some “rest” in the delusion that they keep the Law ..... many “ rest” with the hope that they will have “ Lucky Repentance” Before they die— having the Good Fortune and Super Memory to Repent Of all of their sins before they die.....May God help them if misfortune befalls them and they bump their head, scream out a curse word and then die of a sudden heart-attack before they have the “ luck” to repent in time before they die.

 

[SPF]

I scarcely give thought to any of it.....As long as I am Obedient to the Gospel Of Paul, given to him personally by Jesus Christ , I am Justified , Purified ,Covered by Grace for any and all Sins that I will commit between now and when I am Called Home, I am Saved to the “ UTTERMOST”. I think that would entail everything one could ever think of.
Being Obedient to Paul’s Gospel means to REST in it, as God Commands in Heb3 . ( lest God declare you being in a state of UNBELIEF . Scary stuff. ) Some “ rest” in their Church membership.....some “rest” in the delusion that they keep the Law ..... many “ rest” with the hope that they will have “ Lucky Repentance” Before they die— having the Good Fortune and Super Memory to Repent Of all of their sins before they die.....May God help them if misfortune befalls them and they bump their head, scream out a curse word and then die of a sudden heart-attack before they have the “ luck” to repent in time before they die.

Why the emphasis on “Paul’s Gospel”?

Do you not agree with Paul who said that all Scripture was useful for teaching? Do you not agree that Paul’s writing was on equal footing with regards to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in all the authors of Scripture?