• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Cross Deliverance

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by WordSword, Oct 7, 2020.

  1. WordSword

    WordSword Well-Known Member

    767
    +184
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    It has been wisely said that “the lost need saved, and the saved need delivered,” and “the Blood procures pardon for sin; and the Cross procures power over sin!” The Blood for our forgiveness (Eph 1:7; Col 1:14); the Cross for the old man’s restraint (still on the Cross - Ro 6:6; Gal 5:24), and it is here—in the desire after God (Phl 2:13)—that all is evaluated. The primary growth issue is not so much in the avoidance of sinning, which lessens more all the time in the believer’s walk, but in the desire not to sin!

    Paul’s desire not to sin is demonstrated in his exclamation of “who shall deliver me” (Ro 7:24), which is answered in his realization that he has been delivered not only from the dominion and damnation of the old man (Ro 7:14; 8:1), but especially from ever again possessing the desire after it; which desire existed prior to his rebirth in Christ. It’s my belief that God allows the old man to remain in the believer for the same purpose it was used initially—to produce an ongoing God-dependence at all times.

    So, deliverance is not yet from the indwelt being of the old man (Ro 7:17, 20), nor from its effects of our sinning (Rom 7:23, 25), but from ever again desiring after it, which I believe is what pleases the Father; “For where your treasure (desire) is, there will your heart be also”—He has our hearts (Mat 6:21)!
    NC





    Cross Deliverance

    There is no strength or power in ourselves against “the law of sin which is in our members” (Ro 7:23 - members of the sin nature - Col 3:5 - also known as “the body of sin” - Rom 6:6; the “law of sin” in substance is, “the soul that sinneth, it shall die” Eze 18:4, 20; i.e. Gen 2:17—NC). The Father has left us as much dependent of the Lord Jesus’ work on the Cross for our deliverance as for our forgiveness (deliverance of the believer from the “dominion” of sin – Ro 6 14, i.e. the Cross nullifies its ability, being restrained on it - Ro 6:6—NC)! It is wholly because we died with Him on the Cross (God knew all who will eventually be partakers of Jesus’ Cross—NC), both to sin and to the whole legal principle, that sin’s power for those in Christ is broken.

    “I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Ro 7:25). The answer to Paul’s self-despairing question, “Who shall deliver me?” is a new revelation—even identification with Christ in His death! For just as the sinner struggles in vain to find forgiveness and peace, until he looks outside himself to Him who made peace by “the Blood of His Cross” (Col 1:20), just so does the quickened soul, struggling unto despair to find victory over sin by self-effort, look outside himself to the risen Lord Jesus—in Whom he is, and in Whom he died to sin and its law!

    Paul was not delivered from the “reign” of sin (Ro 6:12) by Christ, but through Him; not by anything He then or at that time did for him, but through the realization of the fact that he had died with Christ on the Cross to this hated indwelling sin (indwelling - Ro 7:17, 20), and law of sin; and to God’s Law (Paul was a Jew after the Law—NC), which gave sin its power. “The strength of sin is the Law” (1Co 15:56).

    The sinner is not forgiven by what Christ now does, but by faith in what He did do on the Cross, for, “The word of the Cross . . . is the power of God” (1Co 1:18). Just so, the believer is not delivered by what Christ does for him now; but in the revelation to the soul of identification with Christ’s death unto sin and its law on the Cross: for again, “The word of the Cross is the power of God.”

    It will be by the Holy Spirit that this deliverance is wrought in us, as we shall see in Romans Eight. “Through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Ro 7:25), and by “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus” (Ro 8:1) is God’s order. To sum up Paul’s great discoveries in this struggle of Romans Seven: That sin dwelt in him (7: 17, 20)—though he delighted in God’s Law (7:22 – in revealing his sin and guilt—NC). That his will was powerless against it (7:23, 25). That the sinful self was not his real self (e.g. in Ro 7:20, of the three “I’s, only the first is the old man, which is the “sin that dwelleth in me;” this also answers to 1Jn 3:9, “cannot sin” i.e. with the new “I”—NC).

    Ah, what relief to Paul’s soul—probably out yonder alone in Arabia, struggling more and more in vain to compel the flesh (old man; sin nature—NC) to obey the Law, to have revealed to his weary soul the second glorious truth of the Gospel—that he had died with Christ, to sin and to the Law which sin had used as its power (1Co 15:56)!

    Now the conclusion—which is the actual text of Romans Seven. “So then I of myself with the mind”—this is the real new-creation self, which the Apostle has over and over said that “sin that dwelleth in me” was not! “With the mind”—all the spiritual faculties included, indeed, the soul-faculties of reason, imagination and sensibility—which even now are “being renewed” by the Holy Spirit, “day by day” (2Co 4:16).

    Am subject to God’s law (or will)—all new creatures can say. “But with the flesh,” sin’s law (Ro 7:25). He saw it at last, and bowed to it—that all he was by the flesh, by nature, was irrecoverably committed to sin. So he gave up—and saw himself wholly in Christ (who now lived in him), and not to walk by the Law, even in the supposed powers of the quickened life—but by the Spirit only, in whose power alone the Christian life is to be lived. “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death” (Ro 8:2).


    —Wm R Newell (1868-1956)
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Junia

    Junia Well-Known Member

    +1,358
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Private

    Thank you for this informative brilliant post
     
  3. WordSword

    WordSword Well-Known Member

    767
    +184
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Hi, thanks for the compliment and God bless!
     
  4. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

    +170
    Christian
    Private

    I believe you just demonstrated an incorrect understanding
    of the Atonement.

    When do you think the Atonement began and ended?

    .
     
  5. WordSword

    WordSword Well-Known Member

    767
    +184
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Not sure concerning your reason for this question, but atonement for Israelite believers in God (Jn 14:1) was made by men per instructions of God, which we all know were types and shadows of Christ's reparation; atonement for all since Christ (on the Cross when He said "it is finished") was not made by man but by the Lord Jesus, thus ending the Law of Moses and never again requiring the need of atonement.

    In my opinion, the majority of the Jews have yet to understand Christ's expiation (atonement) for sins, and many believers in Christ have yet to understand it completely, which is evinced by the ongoing concept that works somehow answer to His atonement for us, but are rather possible evidence of atonement. This is the reason for confused terms like "Judao-Christian," which is the attempt the admixture of Judaism and Christianity.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
  6. WordSword

    WordSword Well-Known Member

    767
    +184
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Sorry, duplicate post.
     
  7. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

    +170
    Christian
    Private

    Mat 12:40
    For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly;
    so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights
    in the heart of the earth.


    If Christ was crucified on Friday if His Atonement was LIMITED
    to the time on the Cross... how is that three days and
    three nights?


    If Christ was crucified on Friday and rose on Sunday morning,
    if that was the duration of His Atonement, that would be three days (Friday, Saturday and Sunday) but it would only be TWO nights
    (Friday night and Saturday night)


    So HOW do you make the FULFILLMENT of Mat 12:40
    harmonize with the duration of Christ's Atonement?


    I assure you, there IS a Biblical answer to this question.


    Jim
     
  8. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

    +170
    Christian
    Private


    Mat 21:43
    Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall BE TAKEN
    from you, [taken from the Jews] AND GIVEN to a nation bringing
    forth the fruits thereof.[given to Christians to save ALL the sheep]


    Mat 21:45
    And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables,
    they perceived that he spake of them.


    I do agree with you about the nonsense of the "Judao-Christian"
    concept when Jews deny Christ... when Christians were the Kingdom
    AFTER the Jews were rejected.


    Jim
     
  9. WordSword

    WordSword Well-Known Member

    767
    +184
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    I think it best to share with you what I use for that understanding:

    by John Gill:

    Song of Solomon shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. That Christ means himself by the "son of man," there is no reason to doubt; and his being laid in a tomb, dug out of a rock, is sufficient to answer this phrase, "the heart of the earth," in distinction from the surface of it; but some difficulty arises about the time of his continuing there, and the prediction here made agreeable to the type: for it was on the sixth day of the week, we commonly call "Friday," towards the close, on the day of the preparation for the sabbath, and when the sabbath drew on, that the body of Christ was laid in the sepulchre; where it lay all the next day, which was the sabbath of the Jews, and what we commonly call "Saturday"; and early on the first of the week, usually called "Sunday," or the Lord's day, he rose from the dead; so that he was but one whole day, and part of two, in the grave. To solve this difficulty, and set the matter in a clear light, let it be observed, that the three days and three nights, mean three natural days, consisting of day and night, or twenty four hours, and are what the Greeks call nucyhmera, "night days"; but the Jews have no other way of expressing them, but as here; and with them it is a well known rule, and used on all occasions, as in the computation of their feasts and times of mourning, in the observance of the passover, circumcision, and divers purifications, that wlwkk Mwyh tuqm, "a part of a day is as the whole" {n}: and so, whatever was done before sun setting, or after, if but an hour, or ever so small a time, before or after it, it was reckoned as the whole preceding, or following day; and whether this was in the night part, or day part of the night day, or natural day, it mattered not, it was accounted as the whole night day: by this rule, the case here is easily adjusted; Christ was laid in the grave towards the close of the sixth day, a little before sun setting, and this being a part of the night day preceding, is reckoned as the whole; he continued there the whole night day following, being the seventh day; and rose again early on the first day, which being after sun setting, though it might be even before sun rising, yet being a part of the night day following, is to be esteemed as the whole; and thus the son of man was to be, and was three days and three nights in the grave; and which was very easy to be understood by the Jews; and it is a question whether Jonas was longer in the belly of the fish.

    {l} R. David Kimchi & Jarchi, in Jonah i. 17. & ii. 1. Zohar in Exod. fol. 20. 3. & 78. 3. {m} Antiq. 1. 9. c. 18. {n} T. Hieros. Pesach. fol. 31. 2. T. Bab. Moed. Katon, fol. 16. 2. 17. 2. 19. 2. & 20. 2. Bechorot, fol. 20. 2. & 21. 1, Nidda, fol. 33. 1. Maimon. Hilch. Ebel, c. 7. sect. 1, 2, 3. Aben Ezra in Lev. xii. 3.
     
  10. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

    +170
    Christian
    Private

    While that was torture to read, John Gill's theory still does not
    show three days and three nights.

    Even using the night/day calculation,
    If Jesus was crucified on Friday (as the church accepts)
    that is ONE NIGHT and ONE DAY

    Saturday would be NIGHT TWO and DAY TWO

    Sunday morning would still be PART of Saturday night/day...
    if we used John Gill's theory. But, even if we cheat and call it
    ANOTHER DAY...

    You still only have THREE DAYS and TWO NIGHTS

    So... instead of posting John Gill's ridiculous theory...
    just explain how you get THREE NIGHTS when Christ
    arose early Sunday morning (before the Sunday night/day
    even began)

    If you cannot explain three days and three nights...
    don't feel bad - most cannot.


    Jim
     
  11. WordSword

    WordSword Well-Known Member

    767
    +184
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    You can share your view if you like. Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2020
  12. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

    +170
    Christian
    Private

    In other words you CANNOT answer the question in your own
    words. That is okay, most cannot.

    BTW... it is not a matter of "sharing a view". It is a matter of
    finding Biblical TRUTH. Everyone and anyone can have a "view"
    but there is ONLY ONE Biblical Truth. And nothing else matters.


    Jim
     
  13. WordSword

    WordSword Well-Known Member

    767
    +184
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    I didn't mean it like that, and it's okay if you don't want to. I nearly always agree with the Bible commentator community on most doctrine concerning most issues. God bless!
     
  14. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

    +170
    Christian
    Private

    The "Bible commentator community"....
    they do not agree with themselves. Which is WHY
    there are so many different (wait for it....) DENOMINATIONS
    teaching different DOCTRINES on just about every subject in the Bible.


    How can you "nearly always agree" with people who don't
    even agree with themselves? Of course you cannot.
    Your own words expose your folly.

    .
     
  15. WordSword

    WordSword Well-Known Member

    767
    +184
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    I realize many believers do not use commentators, and it's mostly because they have not read and understood the Bible enough to understand the commenters, esp. concerning the Pauline Epistles, and is what answers to the lack of spiritual growth in contemporary Christendom within the last century.

    I find that the commentators agree with most doctrine.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
  16. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

    +170
    Christian
    Private
    How in the world can you "find that the commentator agree
    with most doctrines when you have Calvinist commentators
    teaching the OPPOSITE of Arminian commentators and you
    have several differences of agreement withing BOTH the
    Calvinist commentators and Arminian commentators....
    your response does not even pass the "giggle test".

    Listen, I could not care less whether you use commentators
    to tell you what the Bible says... but be honest enough to admit
    that the REASON there are so many commentaries out there is
    because there is so much DISAGREEMENT among commentators.

    In any case... I do not care WHAT you do, or what you say,
    the FACT is there are THOUSANDS of commentaries out there
    because there is NO consensus of agreement.

    Jim
     
  17. WordSword

    WordSword Well-Known Member

    767
    +184
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    It appears you're finished with this issue, as am I, and to complete my meaning of "agreement with most doctrine" is that of all commentators present, they generally agree on, esp. essential doctrine. I find there are few Biblical growth doctrines (nonessential doctrine) on which they differ in their understanding. I suppose we've presented our opinions on this subject enough, and it appears you also had enough of this issue. Thankfully it's with the essential doctrines (receiving and retaining salvation) of the Gospel that most commentators agree, the few differences they have are mostly within the nonessential doctrine (spiritual growth teachings).
     
  18. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

    +170
    Christian
    Private

    You are kidding right?

    1) Most commentators do not agree on the depravity of man
    (that is an essential doctrine)

    2) Most commentators do not agree on the election of man
    (that is an essential doctrine)

    3) Most commentators do not agree on the Atonement
    (that is an essential doctrine)

    4) Most commentators don't agree on the eternal security of saints
    (that is an essential doctrine)

    If you consider these "nonessential doctrines) then you have
    no concept of the Gospel of the Bible... or the fact the real saints
    have been fighting heresies on these issues for almost 2000 years.

    Jim
     
  19. WordSword

    WordSword Well-Known Member

    767
    +184
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    It could be I haven't been clear enough of my meaning of "essential and inessential doctrine." The prior concerns teachings related to receiving salvation, e.g. faith in Christ's expiation for sin; and the latter concerns teachings related to growth in Christ which are doctrines that do not effect essential doctrine, e.g. whether or not the gifts of the Spirit (1Co 12:8-10) are still operational, or that one can or cannot loose salvation, etc.
     
Loading...