• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Critique of Amillennialism

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Aug 17, 2017.

  1. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,931
    Christian
    Single

    I have tried very hard to address your posts that totally misrepresent what I have written together with bearing false witness against it. I have tolerated your false personal attacks on me and what I post as long as I intend to do so. I have told you to either quote what I write as it is written, or NOT AT ALL! You are a liar!

    Nothing you have written in the above has a shres of truth to it! Let me see you support any of it with the facts!


    Quasar92
     
  2. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,931
    Christian
    Single

    The ongoing errors you continue to propegate is attempting to put believers, the Church - in the same barrel with non-believers, Israel - BEFORE THEIR TIME!

    The church that started at Pentecost is not symbolically or spiritually called Israel, according to the Scriptures. Neither has the church replaced Israel so that it will receive the promises that God gave to Israel. There are some verses that could be twisted, by those lacking spiritual discernment or liberals, making it look like the name Israel means the church. Israel is never replaced by the church! Some “Christians”, like those at “Christ at the Checkpoint” conferences, falsely believe that the church has taken the place of Israel so that God can use them to solve the Israeli and Palestinian conflict! They take Scriptures out of context to prove their point and throw Old Testament prophesies in the fire, like Jehoiakim, king of Judah did, Jeremiah 36.

    Romans 9:6-8 “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

    Here, Paul may be addressing those who thought they were entitled to the Promised Land, no matter what they believed. This is not addressing the church as Israel. God did not count those Jews who rejected Him as the true Israel. To be entitled to the Promised Land as a Jew in the Messiah’s Kingdom, the individual Jew has to believe on Jesus, just as Abraham and Isaac did. Even though they did not know Jesus by name at that time, they trusted that God would send a Saviour, as He promised! The true Israelite must be born in the flesh, and in their spirit, by the Spirit of God. True Israel is only the saved Jewish remnant!

    Romans 11:2-5 “God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

    God is all knowing. He will not force Jews to be saved, but He did know that there would be a remnant who would freely accept Him as their Saviour. These are real Jews, not the church replacing Israel! Elias (Elijah) had a pity party, and God told Him that there were still other Jews serving Him. The people who Elijah was told about were Jews according to the flesh, just like those being saved in Paul’s time. Paul said that even during his time there was still a remnant of Israel who was being saved. This Scripture is evidence that God will continue to have a remnant of Jews to receive the promises made to Abraham!

    Romans 11:25 “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
    The big-brained liberals who teaches Replacement Theology says that Romans 11 is talking about the church when it says Israel. So, am I to believe Israel, “the church” had to be blinded so that the Gentiles could be saved? That would not make any sense to a school boy. No! Israel is Israel and the church is the church! When God completes His goal to win many Gentiles, He will open the eyes of the Jews once again. Many liberal “Christians” allow their brains to puff up with pride. They think that they have replaced Israel. But, God is not through with Israel.He still needs to add to the Jewish remnant, who will see the fulfillment of the promises to Abraham.

    Galatians 6:16 “And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”
    This simply means that God owns Israel, and they certainly do need peace and mercy. God formed Israel in the beginning, and He has molded and refined Israel ever since.

    If you read the book of Acts, you will find that both the words Israel and church appear many times. They are never interchangeable. They are two separate things. The church will never replace Israel and receive the Promised Land as an inheritance. The church is not promised by God to even share the Promised Land with the Jews. The church is not Israel, and they have no guarantee to inherit the land that God promised Israel. But, God uses the church to glean the Jewish remnant from the fields of the world. In the future, the church will come with Jesus when He carries out God’s final solution for the Israeli and Palestinian conflict. Meanwhile, the church can help God with the future final solution by winning Jews to Jesus, praying for them, supporting them financially, and by standing up for them instead of against them!

    HIBM Editorial by Avi Goldstein * The Church Is Not Spiritual Israel! – Dr. K. Daniel Fried, Editor in Chief – hopeofisrael.net


    Quasar92
     
  3. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +4,897
    Christian
    Married
    You have done another excellent job of claiming that the scriptures do not mean what they say.

    Your doctrine is destroyed by the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

    The hope of modern Jews is found in the New Covenant Church. There is no Plan B.

    Jer_31:31  "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

    Mat_26:28  For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    Mar_14:24  And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

    Luk_22:20  Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

    1Co_11:25  In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

    2Co_3:6  who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

    Heb_8:8  Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

    Heb_8:13  In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

    Heb_9:15  And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

    Heb_12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

    (NKJV)

    In the video below a modern Jew found the promise of the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) in his Hebrew scriptures.
    He is now my Brother in Christ.



     
  4. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,931
    Christian
    Single

    What I post is fully supported by the Scriptures, such as my post #22, which fully refutes your above empty opinions. It will never be destroyed by you, or others who fail to support their views with scripture to verify it by.


    Quasar92
     
  5. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,480
    Christian
    Single
    Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea, wrote Ecclesiastical History in the early fourth century before Augustine. He recorded objections to the Book of Revelation in his history of the church between the time of Jesus and the reign of Constantine. Some church officials in Egypt had stated the book of Revelation was a forgery written by Cerenthius and not by the Apostle John. There are two early fourth century Bibles extant. One is Codex Vaticanus That does not include the book of Revelation. The second is Codex Sinaiticus found in St. Catherine's Monastery in the Sinai Desert That does contain Revelation.

    I reject the Book of Revelation. I stopped trying to decipher the Book of Revelation years ago.
     
  6. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,159
    Non-Denom
    No takers yet for my invitation to provide a literal physical interpretation of the very first prophecy in Scripture, Genesis 3:15.

    Where have all the literalites gone?
     
  7. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    +28,292
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    Interesting. How many other Christian Denominations subscribe to the Amill view besides the RCC?
     
  8. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

    +1,002
    Canada
    Christian
    Married
    Ya, the new earth.
     
  9. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

    +1,002
    Canada
    Christian
    Married
    Actually, what he posted there is 100% true. I don't understand how you can claim it's not. Have "the jews" come to salvation in the last 2000 years? Yes, or no.
     
  10. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

    +747
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I have already gone over this material of Genesis in an earlier post. The Genesis prophecy is followed by a genealogy and then expanded as we get to major players Abraham and David. The seed of the woman is the virgin birth the coming Messiah Jesus Christ our Lord. There is only two seeds you can be born into and we are either of our father the devil or born again through faith. The promise was expanded at Abraham in your seed all the nations of the world will be blessed and when we follow this line to David we see his seed is to be king forever. This line is followed in the gospels through Mary and Joseph to Jesus who was bruised by the serpent and has crushed his head.

    Now this line of events is not proof or disproof of which view of the millennium is correct. I supplemented many passages showing the new covenant in the only one which we must be saved by and also followed clearly marked passages of chronological events that show Jesus must reign from Jerusalem. In Rev it speaks of Satan being bound 1000 years and also that those who died will live and reign with Jesus these same 1000 years. In Revelation the angles announce the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our LORD and His Christ and he shall reign forever. Jesus defeated Satan at the cross but has not yet removed his earthly authority. It is obvious the world is under the sway of dark principalities. Daniel shows that the the kingdoms of man are finished in ch 2 and no trace of them is left as the stone cut without hands descends and crushes them and becomes a mountain a kingdom that covers the earth and shall not end. I showed that Zech 14 depicts the 2nd coming of Jesus and is the day the angels sing that phrase and the day that Daniel saw of the stone coming down. Zech 14 shows the LORD coming with his saints and melting his enemies and that the landscape has changes. the Mt of Olives splits in two and a new river is formed that flows year round. It says in that chapter that The LORD is king over all the earth and it shows a continuation of events on earth after this 2nd coming as the nations must now keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain. Satan it says i loosed after the 1000 years which Daniel 7 describes as
    11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
    13 “I was watching in the night visions,
    And behold, One like the Son of Man,
    Coming with the clouds of heaven!
    He came to the Ancient of Days,
    And they brought Him near before Him.
    14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
    That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
    His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
    Which shall not pass away,
    And His kingdom the one
    Which shall not be destroyed.

    You see the dominion of the beast is taken away and yet their lives are prolonged for a season and a time. This dominion is taken away at teh 2nd coming where the kingdom is on earth for the 1000 years. Satan is then released without dominion and put down quickly and cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are. Then the great white throne judgement comes and then the new heaven and earth come down.

    Throughout these discussions I point out that the mid point of dispensational eschatology requires Israel to be a nation and Jerusalem to be a troublesome stone to all the world and the middle of the 7 years the daily sacrifices are stopped again. I point out that against incredible odds these things are on the table right now. The temple institute has replicated everything necessary to resume the daily sacrifices. All the other signs such as rising world government and moral decline and eccumenical allingment are also happening.

    The law of the prophets said if a prophet speaks in God's name and the thing does not happen then he is a false prophet and that was punishable by death. Peter says no prophecy is of any private interpretation. Gen 3 is the initial plot line for the whole Bible. The plot is expanded throughout the book. Col 1 gives a thesis statement that is parallel.

    He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood,[fn] the forgiveness of sins.
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
     
  11. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,159
    Non-Denom
    There is no literal appearance of the virgin birth, Messiah, Jesus Christ, or the Lord, in Genesis 3:15. Those require a spiritualized interpretation.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  12. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

    +747
    Non-Denom
    Married
    its funny how the genealogies follow the line of the promise and Isaiah7 adds

    “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. This is predicting the virgin birth and the genealogy goes from Eve to Mary who had this baby by the Holy Spirit I disagree with you and the seed of the woman is Jesus; a woman has no seed this is the virgin birth.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Prayers Prayers x 1
    • List
  13. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,931
    Christian
    Single

    Would you care to tell me how many of the 8.5 million Jews have obtained salvation through their Messiah, whom they rejected? There are Jews who have, but they are a very poor minority of the nation of Israel. That is why Hod let their temple and city of Jerusalem be destroyed by the Romans in 70 A,D, and send Israel into an 1.878 year diaspora. In addition, Israel is decreed by God to go through the tribulation as recorded in Jer.30:7 and Dan,9:27, while the Church does not.

    Israel has not accepted the New Covenant, and received Jesus as their Messiah, and won't until Jesus second coming, as recorded in Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5.


    Quasar92
     
    • Prayers Prayers x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  14. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,931
    Christian
    Single

    Jesus is returning to this earth to reign on the throne of David for 1,000 years as recorded in Rev.19:11-21 and 20:6, fulfilling Mt.6:9-13; Acts 1:6' 2:29-30; 15:16 Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47 and Zech.14:4-5.

    He will also reign in the New Heaven and Earth.


    Quasar92
     
    • Prayers Prayers x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,159
    Non-Denom
    I presume this a response to my post, so I repeat:
    The words virgin, birth, Mary, Holy Spirit, and Jesus; do not literally appear in the verse. Without them, the prophecy is not literal. It is spiritual, requiring spiritual insight and understanding. The assertion that "the prophecies that have been fulfilled were done so literally and physically" thus fails on Scripture's first prophecy.
     
  16. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

    +747
    Non-Denom
    Married
    no i was not disagreeing with you my post was in defending my answer on Gen 3 when asked what is that prophecy mean which opened up the discussion. I affirm the virgin birth and the the seed of the woman is Jesus.
     
  17. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,931
    Christian
    Single

    Prophecied in Isa.7:14 and fulfilled in in Mt.1:20-23.


    Quasar92
     
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +4,897
    Christian
    Married
    The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
    Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.



    Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 

    Those above cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church revealed by Christ in Matthew 16:18 and Matthew 26:28.



    .
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  19. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

    +747
    Non-Denom
    Married
    recognizing the verses that amplify Gen 3 is pretty easy since the genealogy connects them directly. I am not sure what you mean in your view of Gen 3. apart from further revelation it makes little sense but after further revelation it makes perfect sense. Like Melchizedek who shows up in Gen to meet Abraham and then again in the psalms and waits for Paul in the book of Hebrews to explain it.
     
  20. saint2

    saint2 Regular Member Supporter

    372
    +26
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    It seems to me that there is confusion concerning the coming two kingdoms of God. It seems aattributes of the Millennial Kingdom are being confused with attributes of the Messianic Davidic Kingdom.

    We must distinguish between these two coming kingdoms -- the heavenly Millennial Kingdom and the earthly Messianic Davidic Kingdom.


    The 1000 year Millennial Kingdom (Revelation 20:1-6) is a coming heavenly kingdom which will usurp the heavenly kingdom now being held by Satan and his angels (Ephesians 6:12)

    This Millennial heavenly kingdom must be established first before the earthly Davidic Kingdom. Following the coming war in heaven we shall hear this heavenly proclamation:

    Revelation 12:10
    Now have come the salvation and the power
    and the kingdom of our God
    and the authority of his Messiah,
    for the accuser of our comrades has been thrown down,
    who accuses them day and night before our God.




    Contrast the heavenly Millinneal Kingdom with the earthly Messianic Davidic Kingdom which is not for 1000 years, but is FOREVER.

    That is, it is guarantied for 1000 generations as per God's two sworn witnesses: Psalm 105:7-11 and 1 Chronicles 16:14-18

    He is the Lord our God; his judgments are in all the earth. He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant: Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance:


    Isaiah 9:6
    For a child has been born for us,
    a son given to us;
    authority rests upon his shoulders;
    and he is named
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
    His authority shall grow continually,
    and there shall be endless peace

    for the throne of David and his kingdom.
    He will establish and uphold it
    with justice and with righteousness
    from this time onward and forevermore.
    The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.


    ---------------

    IMO the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

    The 1000 year Millennial Kingdom immediately follows Revelation's 5th Seal.

    Whereas, the 1000 generations of the Messianic Davidic Kingdom immediately follows Revelation's 6th Seal.

    Fifth Seal - Revelation 12:9
    When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the testimony they had given; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?” 11 They were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number would be complete both of their fellow servants and of their brothers and sisters, who were soon to be killed as they themselves had been killed.

    Immediately following the 5th Seal, comes the 1000 year heavenly Millennial Kingdom


    Sixth Seal - Revelation 12:12
    When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and there came a great earthquake; the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree drops its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 14 The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

    Then, immediately following the 6th Seal, comes the 1000 generations of the Messianic Davidic Kingdom


    Bob..
     
Loading...