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critic my logic for trusting the early christian leaders more

Discussion in 'Christian History' started by Jesusthekingofking, Jul 4, 2022.

  1. Jesusthekingofking

    Jesusthekingofking Active Member

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    I was taught in a protestant church background. After studying many different denominations and teaching, I found this pattern:

    A leader of x denomination always like to bash other and establish his ideal church. I'm not really sure whether they're genuine or it's true or not they heard the voice of God, but this is a non-stop pattern I see.

    I trust the early leader simply because it was life threatening back then to be a Christian. Also the early Christian's number were small, so less corrupt leaders trying to make money selling Christian religion.
     
  2. sandman

    sandman Senior Member

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    I trust the Word of God ....If the leaders match up with that ...Great....if not.... adios.
     
  3. seeking.IAM

    seeking.IAM Episcopalian Supporter

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    I think there is logic to believing those closest to an event have greater understanding than those further away from it. I tend to believe it both arrogant and absurd for persons coming along a few millennia later to say, "You've been doing it wrong all this time. We have the truth; do it our way." I think Christians should be more mindful to consider the tradition of the Church beyond relying solely upon our own idiosyncratic interpretations of scripture.
     
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  4. sandman

    sandman Senior Member

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    Tradition vs Truth

    To each his own …tradition is an interpretation thereof …with the accumulation of historical religious barnacles. The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. (Psa 12:6)

    The Word tells us to rightly divide the Word of Truth, not interpret. Which means…. seeing how it fits in the verse in the context both (immediate and remoter) an throughout the entirety of the Word of God… If it’s from God, it will not contradict and will fit together like an intricate jig saw puzzle.
     
  5. seeking.IAM

    seeking.IAM Episcopalian Supporter

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    Oral tradition spread and preserved the faith before the Gospels or Epistles were written. Tradition helped shape what was to become canon and what did not.
     
  6. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

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    I believe Christians should be able to cooperate and still be aware of some differences. C.S. Lewis seems to accomplish this in his writings; Mere Christianity is probably a prime example.
    Mere Christianity - Wikipedia
     
  7. Jesusthekingofking

    Jesusthekingofking Active Member

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    But orthodox Christian claim there're in the true church and other groups are merely a bunch of herotodox
     
  8. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

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    I also realize many other Christians follow the Lord better than I do. I think the Spirit can show us how to go here and there.
     
  9. Iohannes Origenis

    Iohannes Origenis Wannabe Saint–Mystic–Sage

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    Strictly speaking your logic is sound but not at all impervious to problems. The main reason to trust what many in academia call "the proto-orthodox" Church and its leaders is their association (sometimes face-to-face) with the Blessed Apostles. Unlike all other groups, especially Gnostics and Judaizers, these men and sometimes women carried on in their church life, ministry, and teaching extremely strong memories, beliefs, & often quite consistent ideas from the Apostolic Era. Moreover, they were the keepers of the canonical texts of the NT...even if there wasn't yet widespread agreement on all the books (outliers mainly).

    Yet, sin can still arise and did arise in the Early Church. While I reject strongly any notion of a "Great Apostasy" to be later remedied at the Reformation or some other figure (e.g. a Joseph Smith), the Fathers (as we tend to call them) were not impeccable. Yes, it was life-threatening to be a Christian back then, but many also sold out to save themselves (the "traditores" and "apostates", for example). It was quite easy, generally, to demonstrate one's loyalty to Rome; a pinch of incense and a certificate of witness that you did it. So many in fact committed idolatry to save themselves or family that it caused a crisis in the 3rd & 4th century between how to deal with Christians repenting of their idolatrous deed.

    Secondly, while I know of only the heresiarch Simon Magus and other heretical leaders charging for services or what not, I have no doubt there were some unscrupulous souls among the proto-orthodox who did such things. NT Scripture even warns against such people, suggesting it was at least a reality.
     
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  10. Iohannes Origenis

    Iohannes Origenis Wannabe Saint–Mystic–Sage

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    So, basically the law of non-contradiction by a skilled exegete (who probably holds to your own general theology) putting together Biblical passages into a "catena aurea" of meaning is the standard?

    No offense intended, but this seems rather weak and a recipe for multiple divergent interpretations. I mean, how does one even distinguish essentials & adiaphora, what books are canonical, can new inspired books be written, etc.? For the record, the Early Christians themselves, it seems, did not favor such an approach (and this despite their own love and devotion to Scripture). As Irenaeus of Lugdunum, himself a disciple of Polycarp who knew John the Apostles, put it around 189 A.D.:

    "As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the tradition is one and the same... (Adversus H. 1:10:2)."

    He goes further: "What if the apostles had not in fact left writings to us? Would it not be necessary to follow the order of tradition, which was handed down to those to whom they entrusted the churches?" (ibid., 3:4:1).

    My Great Teacher, Origen Adamantius ("Man of Steel") put it likewise in 225 A.D. at the very beginning of his Peri Archon 1:2,

    "Although there are many who believe that they themselves hold to the teachings of Christ, there are yet some among them who think differently from their predecessors. The teaching of the Church has indeed been handed down through an order of succession from the apostles and remains in the churches even to the present time. That alone is to be believed as the truth which is in no way at variance with ecclesiastical and apostolic tradition."

    Moreover, Origen was no slouch in Scripture nor Biblical hermeneutics, as his Hexapla demonstrates aptly.

    Regardless, I find the position you advocate fascinating. :)
     
  11. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian Supporter

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    Ack! You have stolen my thunder! What will The Liturgist post about now that seeking.IAM has become the torchbearer of this very important point?

    Probably I shall discuss in greater detail the possible derivation of the Anaphora of St. James from the Anaphora of St. Basil, rather than it being the other way ‘round as was generally assumed until some recent and interesting scholarship. See Essays on Early Eastern Eucharistic Prayers, edited, like so much else worth reading, by Paul R. Bradshaw.
     
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  12. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian Supporter

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    You get points for anti-anachronistic style, by correctly referring to ancient Lyons as Lugdunum, which is one of the few cases where the old Latin place name lacks the panache of its successor. I obviously prefer Neapolis to Nappoli, for instance.
     
  13. seeking.IAM

    seeking.IAM Episcopalian Supporter

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    I'm still leaving all the heavy lifting to you. All I have is a simple view from the pew. :grinning:
     
  14. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian Supporter

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    Well given my immense capacity for boring people to an induced somnolescent state, that may not be for the best. :sigh:
     
  15. Arctangent

    Arctangent New Member

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    If the original audience of the New Testament couldn't understand it, then neither could anyone else a millennium and a half later.
     
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