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Criteria for God's Word

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Tree of Life, Nov 2, 2020.

  1. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

    United States
    Thank you

    Ah, here lies the crux of the matter. I would agree with what you state above. However, we are speaking about differing topics. I'm speaking about your current belief in something. You cannot will a change in that current belief. Some sort of catalyst would need to take place.

    You are instead speaking about the ability to either protect a current belief, by not allowing new catalysts to be presented, or, closing your ears to newly presented catalysts because you are lazy or not interested, which might of then also alter your current belief.

    You see the difference?

    For example: I do not believe Jesus rose from a tomb. I have been
    open to all sorts of presented evidence. Nothing, thus far, has changed my current conclusion that "Jesus did not rise from a tomb." This current belief is NOT a choice :) I feel I have studied the presented evidence available, and I cannot simply will a change in my current belief. If you wish to provide some new evidence, for which I have not already heard, be my guest.

    And as Scripture clearly states, for which I would also concur..... "
    and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain."

    Then you have demonstrated my point. If what you state IS the truth, then you must also accept the Qur'an as truth. They are both equally circular. If you reject the Qur'an as truth, then you must instead adhere to some sort of catalyst/evidence, which then negates your Hebrews Verse(s) ;)

    Then you can begin by demonstrating why the Orthodox Jews are mistaken about Jesus, just for starters.

    And if you can successfully complete this task, then you might demonstrate the existence of a 'Holy Spirit'. And then, how you can also discern your own thoughts, verses that of any coming from this claimed 'Holy Spirit'. Good luck with all of this... :)

    What you state above presents contradiction.

    You state all that receive the Holy Spirit will have a similar take on things. Let's test this...

    - old earth (vs) young earth
    - global flood (vs) local flood (vs) no flood / metaphorical

    Reading the first few Chapters, what ARE the answer(s)? You claim to have the 'Spirit'. Please enlighten all of us?
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2020
  2. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

    My becoming a Christian was my change in belief. I wasn't always a Christian. At one point in my life I was closed to the idea, then I became more open and things happened.
    While I didn't will this change my being open and not closed was obviously an important step towards a change in belief.

    You are only open to evidence that you can see and touch like Thomas.
    God isn't coming down to demonstrate miracles for you, he already did that once.
    Most times God is a lot more subtle.

    The Quran demonstrates what I was saying in my other posts, clear indications of false teaching.
    Humans are in 3 parts, body, soul/mind and spirit. God is spirit you know him in your spirit. The human spirit searches for something but what it finds is not always God because it is corrupted. Adam sinned and the easy connection between God and man was broken. God himself is the catalyst but it isn't something you see and touch. It isn't evidence as most people think of evidence. Jesus died to heal this connection, but it isn't simply handed out but a choice that each person has to make.

    The Bible says there will be a large joining in the last days of the Jewish nation back into the fold.
    The Jewish nation was looking for a different kind of Messiah and many of the prophesies they looked to won't be fulfilled until the very end. It is at this point they will recognize Jesus as Messiah. This is not a topic that I have delved into very much. I am sure someone who has studied this would be able to give a much better answer.

    I don't know what you are asking here. No one can 'demonstrate' the existence of the Holy Spirit. I already told you God isn't going to put a show on for you.

    I do believe all with the Holy Spirit will share the same major beliefs or will over time come to share them. Someone can be saved and still be in error because their mind or body is holding stubbornly onto something and won't let go, but I fully believe that the Holy Spirit will be working on them. Things will come into their life to point the way. It may be a person or a sermon or a book or a circumstance. Will they have their eyes upon God when this happens or will they be like Peter still sinking under the waves -no one knows but them. Some people get saved and fall away. Go read the parable of the sewer again. The message has to take root and to grow for the believer to grow in their beliefs.

    It appears you seem to think every Christian everywhere should be in perfect harmony immediately upon conversion and also know every part of scripture. that is completly false. We are a work in progress. We have our soul/mind and our flesh to contend with, which is often in direct contrast to our spirit, even to the point of fighting it. Even Paul had to fight himself.
    Romans 7
    15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

    22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

    The person who is truly confessing Christ will overtime grow and becomes more in one mind with other believers because they will trust scripture as the breathed word of God. If they do not view scripture as Gods Word and they are not growing and changing over time, then they may never actually have been.
    Do I believe all those holding onto evolution are all non-Christians-no. But I do believe they are in error, grave error to the point that it may cause their falling away at some point in time. I pray for those who have been deceived.
    Matthew 24:24
    to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
    It's a daily, hourly, minute by minute choice to follow the leading of the Spirit or to stop listening and go our own way. Humans are weak creatures prone to being lead astray by any number of others things, especially ourr own flesh, yes even born again believers. No one said being a Christian was 24/7 rainbows. It is in despite of this that we are saved.

    24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
  3. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

    United States

    Many, including myself, have been, or are still, open for such demonstration. God looks to pass over many of them, including myself, it seems. Quite odd, if God wants for all to seek Him, wouldn't you agree? Why does He completely pass over some, and completely engorge others?

    What's more likely of the two choices?

    a. God plays favorites
    b. God is imaginary

    Problems detected here...

    - I had faith for 3 decades, and nothing.
    - God seeks a relationship with all whom seek Him, but He apparently ignores some.
    - God has often times demonstrated not to be subtle apparently?

    Okay. You just demonstrated my point. You state the Bible is true because it says so. Well, so does the Qur'an. You do not believe the Bible because it says so, you believe the Bible because of another reason. You instead detect 'false teaching' in the Qur'an.

    So I ask you, how do you know the Bible/NT does not also give false teachings? Nothing you state above answers this direct question.

    In the mean time, do these mistaken Jews get a free pass, or, are they sent to hell? If it's the later, seems kind of 'cruel', wouldn't you agree? If they are honestly mistaken, is God going to burn them? If not, who else gets free passes, since believe in the Christ seems to be key here?

    You see the little pickle we've got going on here???

    Then why in the heck should I believe what you assert blankly?

    That which can be asserted without evidence, can also be discarded without evidence. Right?

    You did not address my observations, not in the slightest :( I'm not asking if it's okay for men to have long hair here....

    If some have the Spirit, what is the answer to these seemingly 'major' claims? Do we have any consistency among all whom have been touched by the Holy Ghost? You claim you have. Thus, as soon as you answer the questions below, all whom agree, and also claim to have the Holy spirit, will be further validated. The ones whom disagree, but also claim to have the Holy Spirit, will be invalidated. Right?

    Please answer the simple questions below:

    - old earth (vs) young earth ????
    - global flood (vs) local flood (vs) no flood / metaphorical ???
  4. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    I posted the scripture from Luke forbidding retribution to the Samaritans, I have repeatedly posted Christ’s commandments ( love God & neighbor & the golden rule), I have posted a link to the earliest known Christian church manual attesting to this.

    All I can do is give evidence of a criteria; I have done this. Whether you believe the conclusions of Christ as God & man & our savior is up to you.
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2020
  5. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    I believe God as Christ took responsibility for any misconceptions of God whether as from the Gentiles or Jews. I believe the scriptures I have given attest to this. If it were not for the Gospel, I would probably consider the law of Moses as part of the collection of expression of human beliefs. Christ calls the Old Testament scripture & sums up His testimony for us to love one another ( John 13:34). I put my trust in Christ.
  6. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member


    I think it's more a case of he is and you don't see it because you are looking for something large. We are not all Saul on the road to Damascus. Acts 9
    Think of Elijah. 1 Kings 19:11-13 God was in the whisper.

    2 Peter 3:9
    The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

    You say you had faith, but only you know what that means. Was it faith in Jesus, faith in a idea, faith in a church? Was it faith based on certain expectations which were not met? Was it like the parable where the worries of life or something else came and pushed you away? There are so many reasons and only you know what you felt and why you fell away.
    If your faith was in Jesus and it was a faith where you felt and saw God's hand in your life I doubt very much you would be where you are now.

    The Bible is true, not because it says so, but because God tells us it is so.

    God is the catalyst here, but no human can proove that to you as I am sure you already know. It isn't our job to proove it to you either. It's our job to let you know, but the seeking and believing is on you.

    Because I know in my spirit. I trust God. Our spirit is not something we can take out and anylize but it can commune to God and God to us -if we are listening.

    The New Testament says

    “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Rom 4
    It also mentions other Old Testament people in like manner. It could be that this is how God continues to deal with Israel.As i said you would do better asking someone who studies this area.
    Romans 11:26

    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    The only one in a pickle is you.

    What exactly are you asking? Do you expect me or another Christian to ask God to put on a display for you? Because it sounds like it.

    As I have said before the evidence comes from within your own spirit. I can't wake up your spirit, only you and God can. But you have to be willing and everything you write points to you being unwilling.

    Which part did I not address?

    I already answerd this. I will grab it and copy and paste it in again.
    Do I believe all those holding onto evolution are all non-Christians-no. But I do believe they are in error, grave error to the point that it may cause their falling away at some point in time.
    The Bible teaches young earth and global flood. The main point is not creation but the teaching of where sin comes from. If someone decides not to beleive scripture then its not because of scripture. It's because something outside of scripture is influencing them.
  7. Loversofjesus_2018

    Loversofjesus_2018 Well-Known Member

    United States
    I’m reading what your saying and I’m understanding it from a Christian perspective. But I can’t help to wonder about all the other people who believe differently and give all the same reasons you have given for their own belief? How is that you or I or anybody can discard their belief as untrue but take our own personal belief as absolute truth and certain? Is it because God said our belief is truth and another’s isn’t? Well what if they say the same to back up why they believe you or I am in error? It really seems extremely arrogant for me to act as if my way is right and any other way which is contrary is wrong... If an atheist is being honest and sincere and truly haven’t been convinced we tell them it is something wrong with the method they use to see truth which may be true but it also could be they are just not willing to believe based off the words of other human beings. It seems understandable why someone could look at all things in our world with a bit of skepticism especially when it comes to God because it’s too important to just say “most people believe this so it must be true about God” well my question has to be what if they are wrong? What if it’s true that there have been things added to scripture? What if I’m wrong? Anytime we are talking about “belief” if we are sincere we have to admit the possibility we may be wrong? I mean the word belief itself implies the possibility we could be mistaken or we wouldn’t use that word. So unless we are 100% absolutely certain why are we even claiming we have truth or not?
  8. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

    The only time I hold tight to my belief is when scripture plainly states it. There are many areas of scripture which are not so clear and I am not claiming to have them all correct by any means, but when God says he made everything in 6 days I believe him, when he says he killed all life with a flood I believe him.

    How is that you or I or anybody can discard their belief as untrue but take our own personal belief as absolute truth and certain?
    Because their belief is not coming from scripture, it's coming from man. If it came from scripture they would be able to back it up with scripture, they have none. People who believe in evolution are believing in it not because of scripture but because of secular science. They have let the world, their education, their culture mislead them. Which is why I mentioned these as real dangers before. When a person puts worldly wisdom above God's word they have stopped confessing Christ. Creation is important because it explains where sin came from which is a vital part of the Gospel message.

    As for the atheist, we can tell them how to be saved but unless they open their heart towards God so that he can call them, they can't turn and be saved.

    Matthew 13:15
    For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.
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  9. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

    United States
    Disagree. God often times, does not gently whisper. Please remember what this thread is asking... What is the criteria for God? You, in part, claim it is the 'Holy Spirit'.

    I prayed for 30 years and received no apparent contact. Many pray and seem to receive clear contact. God looks to be fickle, and play favorites. Unless you are to suggest I was never sincere in my search for Him?

    I'm not sure you ever saw this thread directly below? I will quote the bottom of post #1:

    God's Revelation is Real and Proven!

    IF both atheists and theists alike admit that personal revelation is likely the only thing which would truly make them at least accept the existence of a God; then I guess all we have left to figure out is how do we parse out which of these highly publicized and witnessed renditions of the Holy Spirit, working on humans, IS authentic?

    Followed by the two videos at the bottom of post #1...

    Sorry if you think I'm 'needling' :) Many pray(ed) in earnest, including myself, for years or decades, and feel they received no contact. Others feel swift and often contact. God looks to either be playing favorites, or maybe these individuals are not actually receiving God's contact? Again, look at the two videos above, and ask what is more likely?

    a. God plays favorites
    b. God is imaginary

    In 30 years, I ultimately felt like I was doing nothing more than talking to myself. Hence, I logically concluded that either there exists no such thing as a Holy Spirit, or He decided to perpetually skip over me. Again, look at the videos above, God looks not to be very subtle when He chooses... Unless you reconcile that some of these individuals are mistaken? And if some are mistaken, then how do we decipher which of these people are actual cases in God's contact, and which ones are not???

    You just agreed with me again. Your counter point says the exact same thing. You are stating you believe the Bible because 'God says so'. Well, as I pointed out a few posts back, then you must accept the Qur'an as fact, because 'God says so'. But this is not actually why you believe...

    You believe because you feel you possess the Holy Spirit, and that all whom possess the Holy Spirit will truly know God's Word. But you also demonstrate below, in my basic questions, this looks to be patently false.. (i.e.) -- the age of the earth, and the flood....

    Luckily, we actually can 'analyze'...

    This must mean that all claimed believers in Christ, whom also claim to have the Holy Spirit, and whom also claim the earth was not created in 6 days, and also the flood was either local or metaphorical, do not really possess the Holy Spirit, right?

    The Bible is not vague about these two claims, right?

    Study or no study, you did not address my direct question(s) in the slightest. Nor, will extra study likely shed more light here :)

    Do all the Orthodox Jews, whom die thinking the Messiah has not yet come, get a free pass to heaven, (or) does God send them to hell?

    1. If they get free passes, then who else might?
    2. If they are sent to hell, isn't this kind of 'cruel'?

    And speaking about seemingly plain Scripture, I will preemptively answer for you. But mind you, I do not claim to have the Holy Ghost guiding me, so what do I really know:

    16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

    Assuming these Orthodox Jews do not live in a cave somewhere, I'm pretty sure they have been exposed to the assertion(s) of Jesus.

    You will soon too see the little pickle, after you actually engage in the questioning above :)

    If you have absolutely no way to demonstrate that a Holy Spirit exists, then it would not be logical for me to just take your blank assertions with any face value, right? No more or less so then how you or I might easily dismiss the person, on the urban street corner, verbally claiming to preach from the source of a differing claimed deity. Right?

    And as I've said, your answers produce no merit.

    1. Many claim the Holy Spirit, but cannot even agree on plain Scripture.
    2. Many of the willing, including myself, look to be passed right over, while others get contacted all the time.

    I brought up these two topics, because they look pretty clear and plain.

    Let's take the flood, for instance. Many believers claim the flood is metaphorical or local. You do not. This is in direct contradiction to what you stated above:

    Post #80 :
    "There are certain principles every born again believer would agree on."

    If believers cannot agree of these plain assertions, this must mean the ones whom disagree with YOU are not touched by the Holy Spirit? Right?
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2020
  10. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member


    So you have heard God?

    Criteria? You can't lay down rules or measures for God.

    Like I said before maybe you were looking for the wrong thing. Maybe you were answered and could not see it. All I know is what you tell me.

    You know the story of the man on the roof during the flood praying to God to rescue him? A guy in a rowboat comes along and he refuses, then a guy in a speed boat comes along and he refuses him and last of all a helicopter comes and he refuses that too. Each time he said "I'm waiting on God to rescue me" Then the flood rises and he drowns goes to heaven and asks God "Why didn't you rescue me when I prayed so hard?" and God said, "I sent a man with a rowboat than a speed boat and last of all a helicopter, why didn't you accept the answer to your prayer?"

    I don't know, maybe you are like that guy, not seeing God at work even when he was because you are after a Saul experience or some kind of experience that God was not giving you.
    I do believe that God doesn't want anyone to perish.

    In all that 30 years of prayer where you reading the Bible as well?

    I haven't been on this board for a while so no I haven't.

    Well first of all the Holy Spirit only comes to dwell with the faithful. He is the guide once we have accepted Jesus.

    Followed by the two videos at the bottom of post #1...
    I will have a look.

    I don't believe either of those things.

    God does know who will accept and who won't though. And I think you simply didn't see God's hand because you weren't looking for God in the way that he was showing himself to you but were looking for something else. Some kind of experience. I don't know what or how you prayed because this is a question only God can answer.

    When he chooses too yes, but most times he is subtle.

    Certainly, people can 'make a joyful noise to the Lord' and fall down but not everyone does.
    But I would want to hear the preaching first to see if it aligns with the scriptures because that tells me if God's Word is being preached faithfully. In every circumstance 'test the spirits'.

    But God doesn't say the Qur'an is his word, only the Bible is scripture.

    Hebrews 4:12
    For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

    I don't think you are truly listening since I have now said this over and over again. People are body, soul and spirit. Even those who are saved can take their eyes off God and go their own way. That could be for a short time or for years. One Christian singer said they had been in the wilderness for 10 years. It's often likened to a wilderness or desert. Some people get saved but never grow or learn or move forward.
    But there are others who are not saved but who use the label of Christian. Some of them think they are saved because they belong to a church or because they were baptised as babies. This does not make someone born again.

    Unless someone has come and said outright that they don't believe scripture is God's breathed word I will accept that they are Christians even if they are in error. If they don't confess the Word then no, they are not saved. You will normally find people who don't accept scripture also attend churches where scripture is not preached either.
    "The time is coming when people won’t listen to good teaching. Instead, they will look for teachers who will please them by telling them only what they are itching to hear."

    See my answer above. The Holy Spirit doesn't give us wisdom in all matters as soon as we get saved.

    It is very clear. People have been deceived.

    I have answered clearly, your eyes are not seeing your ears are not-hearing. :(

    and yet again you ask me a question about the nation of Israel after I have twice told you this is not an area that I have really studied. I also said God may deal with them as he always has. I gave you what I know, please ask someone else who can answer this properly.

    I didn't say they hadn't. Again read what I put, read the scripture that I posted. God has a plan for the nation of Israel. They will come to faith at the end.

    You will soon too see the little pickle, after you actually engage in the questioning above :)

    You either get convicted in your spirit or you don't.

    Matthew 7:14
    But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

    And I already answered this too many times.
    They don't agree because they have been fooled by false teachers
    Because the church they attend does not teach scripture
    Because they have their eyes off God
    They have allowed the world and their flesh to take over
    or they are not born again believers.
    There is nothing more to say because this is the answer.

    No this isn't a contradiction it is you who do not understand.
    To become saved you need to repent of your sins and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and follow him as the Word.
    A person can be saved and understand very little scripture. I would guess they are attending a church that is not teaching them sound scriptural principles.

    All born again believers have the Holy Spirit, if they choose to listen to him is another thing entirely.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
  11. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

    United States
    Sure I can. :) IF the "measure/criteria" for God is the presence of the Holy Spirit, then we look to have one or more of the following:

    - A felt thought, or intrusion, that seems not to have been your own; but from an 'external force'
    - Having an innate awareness, or a seemingly 'sixth sense'
    - Feeling(s) of intense euphoria, feeling overcome by an 'external force'
    - Actually hearing audible voices 'from God'
    - A burning in the bosom
    - Ability to all of a sudden speak in tongues, the angel's language, as the spirit takes you over

    Which of the above is/are your measures for the 'Spirit'????

    The follow-up then becomes, which ones are genuine and which ones are not? So much to analyze here....

    Okay. Sure...

    But did you ever consider the alternative, that God is imaginary; and that all your methods to measure for the Spirit were/are nothing more than your own thoughts?

    Yes I have. Seems as though many theists seem to want to use this exact story, when in such debates. Address the above 'measures/criteria' for the Spirit, and tell me which of them certifies or verifies it must be from YHWH, (verses) another source, or your own head????

    Please do :) Post #1 of this link: God's Revelation is Real and Proven!

    Your response looks to only push the problem back one step. Why?

    - We do not look to have a set measure or criteria for the Spirit.
    - All such given 'measure/criteria' could also be experienced, while instilling faith in an opposing claimed deity, or no actual deity
    - I had faith for decades, and experienced none of the above 'measures'. But many others do...

    I can assure you I tried every which way, and I felt none of the above given criteria to 'measure' for the presence of any Spirit. And even if I had, how would I know it was from God, and not my own thoughts???

    Maybe God is imaginary? Did you ever even consider this conclusion? Once again, belief/faith in an opposing deity can also generate the same 'measures' for contact with the 'Spirit'/other.

    I'm sorry, but you are presenting an unfalsifibale premise, so the 'measure for God's given Spirit' can never be truly verified :( YOU also look to be pulling this response out of your hoo-ha. God, is often times not subtle, as the other thread suggests (God's Revelation is Real and Proven!)

    Yes He does. I gave you one of the Verses when we started. Did you forget already?

    But again, it is irrelevant, as this is not the reason you believe. You believe because you perceive contact from the Holy Ghost.

    Oh, I heard you the first time :) You stated we are not to squabble about whether or not your hair can be long. You stated the main message(s) will be universal. I wuold consider a flood claim pretty axiomatic, how about you?

    But we have many claimed true-blue Christians whom claim the opposite of you. Does this mean they have NOT received the Holy Spirit? If they had or have, then your assumption would be in line with theirs, when it comes to plain assertions, right?.?.?.

    Now continue to see my repeated answer directly above.

    Maybe it's you whom are deceived? Did you ever figure out the 'measure/criteria' for determining if you have actually been contacted by this Holy Spirit or not???

    For someone whom claims they don't know, you sure claim to know. But your response makes little to no sense... God either sends all dead unbelievers in Christ to hell (including the Orthodox Jews), or He makes exceptions. Which one is it?

    Well, I never felt any of the above expressed 'measures/criteria'.

    You did not address my response here however...

    Why should I accept YOUR testimonials any more or less then that of an urban street corner speaker, whom claims they are speaking for a differing god(s)?

    As we both agree, the main message would be universal, but it is not.

    The flood looks to be a main message. You guys don't agree. This either means the ones that do not agree with you have not been contacted by the Spirit, or, maybe it's YOU whom are mistaken, and you have not been contacted by the Holy Spirit.

    Why can I state this? -- Because this was your beginning criteria, that the main message would be consistent and universal. :)

    All have? By using which of the following 'measure/criteria', listed from the top of this response?
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
  12. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member


    This is going to be my last attempt to explain because you are not even listening to what I am saying. If I was going into a place, a group, a situation I would test the spirits. Why? because God says we need to.
    4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world

    There are two sides to the spiritual realm and we are not to simply take someones say so on it.

    Here is a whole post by me on 'testing the spirits'

    Do Aliens Exist?

    So without being able to test I am not in a place to say anything about those videos.

    Yes, constantly.
    1 Peter 5:8
    Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

    That is why ^
    Ephesians 6:11-18

    11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
    12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
    Then the verse goes on to say what exactly is the armour of God.

    the gospel of peace;
    the shield of faith,
    the helmet of salvation,

    and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
    Any person who has come to faith who does not believe scripture, who does not view it as the breathed word of God needed for growth, will end up deceived by Satan.
    Matthew 24:24 to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

    Not since becoming a Christian.
    Before that, sure. If I spoke to you at 23 I wasn't sure of anything and believed in evolution. But I had been open to things for about 5 years.

    It's a good story for illustrating a point. Obviously, a well know one but I didn't say I was a minister so that's all I have.

    Read over my post testing the spirits.

    There is also discernment, which is more the Holy Spirit warning our spirit. But a believer should take that feeling and use it to test the spirits. It always goes back to scripture. Jesus is the Word, scripture is Jesus's words to us. Pure feelings are not always reliable because again we can be deceived by our own minds, flesh, emotions and Satan.
    16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

    Is that ^ part of asking about those videos? As I said I can't really say anything about them. I can't test the spirits from such videos. How something looks or feels is not the criteria.

    For one when you experience God it should be different from your own thoughts. God may make you confront things about yourself that you wish you could either forget or even keep doing.
    Why do you think Paul struggled with himself?

    15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
    He is talking about sin and how his own spirit wants to go one way but his body and or mind are trying to go the other way.
    A born again believer should hate sin, even sin that the world condones, but they may still struggle with it.

    Matthew 26:41
    "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

    Kind of rude sir. A born again believer can test the spirits, indeed we are commanded to do so.

    God's word is the Bible and only the Bible.
    Probably, I'm an old lady. Did you think I was a 30-year-old man? :)

    The Holy Spirit or Jesus did when I was 24. But mine was the quiet still voice of God. This is still how the Holy Spirit guides me.

    The flood is a large point but it is not a requirement for salvation. A person can still be a Christian and be in error.
    I mentioned hair length as a minor point. It is something that comes up here on CF though. Two threads on it in the past 2-3 months.

    I already listed why a true believer may be wrong.
    Either they are wrong or not a born again believer.

    Maybe it's you whom are deceived? Did you ever figure out the 'measure/criteria' for determining if you have actually been contacted by this Holy Spirit or not???

    For someone whom claims they don't know, you sure claim to know. But your response makes little to no sense... God either sends all dead unbelievers in Christ to hell (including the Orthodox Jews), or He makes exceptions. Which one is it?

    We already had this discussion.
    I showed you a verse on how God dealt with the Israelites based on righteousness like Noah and Abraham and I showed you a verse saying the nation of Israel is right now having their heart partly hardened by God who will come to view Jesus as the messiah at the end.
    I also told you I have not studied this area. My answer is "I don't know". I don't know if God treats them differently or not. I suspect that he might but that is hardly a definitive answer now is it. The nation of Israel are still God's chosen people.

    John 14:6

    6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    The main message is that Jesus is God, was crucified dead and buried, that he rose again on the third day for the remission of sins.

    The flood is an important doctrine but it is not one of the main tenents.
    Any church that does not follow the main tenents of the faith is considered a cult such as the Jehovah witnesses
  13. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

    United States
    Disclaimer: Please bare in mind I'm not trying to be rude or condescending. The topic is "Criteria for God". It looks pretty clear your stated 'criteria for God' is contact from the 'Holy Spirit'.

    As I will continually point out, I doubt there exists any verifiable way in which [you or I] could actually distinguish your own personal thoughts and conclusions (against) that of any claimed external given source -- like a Holy Spirit or other?

    Please also keep in mind, what looks to be all given mechanisms or tools, in which one might attempt to use in distinguishing contact from any claimed "Holy Spirit" or other external force, (verses) your own thoughts alone:

    1.) A felt thought, or intrusion, that seems not to have been your own; but from an 'external force'
    2.) Having an innate awareness, or a seemingly 'sixth sense'
    3.) Feeling(s) of intense euphoria, feeling overcome by an 'external force'
    4.) Actually hearing audible voices 'from God'
    5.) A burning in the bosom
    6.) Ability to all of a sudden speak in tongues, the angel's language, as the spirit takes you over

    I have highlighted them in bold red, as I will continue to re-reference these (6) mechanisms or tools to demonstrate how you are attempting to distinguish your own personal thoughts, <verses> that of a claimed Holy Spirit/other.

    Your provided link states:

    - One is that the spirit or person (since spirits most times work through people) confesses that Jesus Christ came in the flesh.
    - Two is that they look to God for answers not to any practice that God condems.
    -False teachers/evil spirits will not confess Christ, they will use methods God has condemned and will also perform 'miracles.'
    -They will look the part but will teach falshood.
    -We will know false teaching by scripture and the Holy Spiri

    As I pointed out in the beginning of our exchange...

    If a false deity has both freewill and the ability for magic, then God would not restrict this false agent's ability to perfectly deceive you :) This false agent could reiterate Scripture, to your interpreted taste, to deceive you. If this agent is not allowed, then this agent does not possess freewill.

    If a false deity has both freewill and the ability for magic, then God would not restrict this false agent's ability to perfectly deceive you :) This false agent could reiterate Scripture, to your interpreted taste, to deceive you. If this agent is not allowed, then this agent does not possess freewill.

    Wait, do you no longer believe in evolution since you became a believer? If so, I have one follow-up question...

    If evolution were demonstrated true for you, in a way for which you could no longer deny, would you then reject Christ?

    Please recall, this topic is looking for THE 'criteria for God'. Maybe for you, being convinced of evolution is the catalyst here?

    You apparently start with an apriori assumption that the Bible is true, and nothing more. You then validate that Scripture is true, by using the tools and mechanisms (1 thru 6) - listed in the disclaimer at the top.

    Please also recall what I stated prior, if false agents have both freewill and the ability to perform magic, then their freewill would not be denied in always using your personal interpretation of Scripture to deceive you.

    [Your] criteria is essentially asserting that you start with knowing Scripture is true. And if you receive contact from a claimed external source, and this external source does not adhere to Scripture, then you automatically know this external source is not from YHWH. Right? But as I've stated many times now... If a false agent has freewill, there is no reason they could not only use, what [you] interpret as God's Word/Scripture to deceive you.

    When you watch these videos, are any of these individuals reacting in a way, from which could not have been produced by YHWH? And more importantly still, do all these individuals believe their felt contact, in revelation, is real? Assuming they do, maybe some of these individuals would assert that you are wrong. And yet, their earnest interpretation of Scripture may differ from [yours].

    This response is perfectly in line with above disclaimer:

    1.) A felt thought, or intrusion, that seems not to have been your own; but from an 'external force'

    Is it even possible that you could have thoughts and feelings, which do not feel like they came from you, but in fact, did??????????????

    My apologies!!! Please note the top of the disclaimer.

    Your assertion is that God is subtle. However, I have provided many cases, where He appears not to be subtle. And if God is not subtle, then I should also be completely aware of God's contact, with no wavering doubt as well, right? Especially when I prayed in faith for decades.

    Thus, what is more likely...?

    1) God has passed over me in prayer for decades, which looks to contradict Scripture, or...?
    2) Maybe all these video'd individuals are producing their own thoughts/actions, not actually from the Holy Spirit?

    Other claimed holy books assert they are from God. If you start with the apriori that the others are from god(s), then [your] given argument immediately falls on it's face. (i.e.)

    "[God's] word is the [Bible] and only the [Bible]."


    "[Xenu's] word is the ['sacred scripture'] and only the ['sacred scripture']."

    Taken from the disclaimer at the top:

    1.) A felt thought, or intrusion, that seems not to have been your own; but from an 'external force'

    4.) Actually hearing audible voices 'from God'

    If two individuals claim to have the Holy Spirit, and one claims the flood was literal, and the other claims the flood was metaphorical, the Holy Spirit would only agree with one of them.

    In your case, you might then assert that the one claiming the flood was literal has the Holy spirit, and the other is clouded by evil. Welp, the other can say the exact same thing about the one whom claims the flood was literal :)

    Again, you do not need to be more proficient here :)

    It's a simple question. Knowing the story better will not shed any additional light.

    If YHWH exists, what happens to the Orthodox Jews whom die as an Orthodox Jew? According to the Bible, in many places, they look to go to hell. If one asserts otherwise, then God makes exceptions and/or plays favorites against His own rule(s). Do you see this as a contradiction as well?

    Xenu also claims to be the way. Maybe you are the one mistaken? Maybe your apriori conviction has been invested into the wrong piece of literature?

    Sure, the over-all message to the claim of Christianity can be agreed upon, even by non-believers. (i.e.) - (Jesus claims to be the Messiah, and was executed). But this is not my point.

    My point is that, as you read Genesis, you come across a flood claim. If you guys cannot even agree upon general axiomatic statements, then either the Spirit is not guiding you guys very well, or maybe, just maybe, there is no actual Spirit there to do the actual guiding :)

    And again, if you claim the ones whom claim it is metaphorical are merely clouded by sin, then they can surely make the same claim about you :)

    They all claim they use the 'main tenets'. And thus far, all you appear to have in 'validation', is the (6) points listed in the disclaimer. But as I pointed out from the get-go, there looks to be no way to distinguish YOUR OWN THOUGHTS from an actual external one.
  14. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

    Sorry but the site said my post was too long so I have cut out a lot of what you said!

    So I first replied to this thread by answering the OP and the question was not "Criteria for God"? but rather critera for determining whether something is a word from God? The OP was not asking about God but rather God's word, he already assumed God Exists. My post back to him was about how we know a word is from God, which is test the spirits'. I hope you can see, for his question, I gave him a perfectly good answer.

    Onto your question, there is a huge difference since you are literally questioning God's existence. I think perhaps you should have made a separate thread.
    Now if the OP had asked "Criteria for God"? I would not have replied because I don't believe in a criteria for God.
    So let's clear up that first.

    I think you misread the original post and assumed due to your own lack of belief what this thread was about.

    But back to the original question, which was directed to and only to Christians is to test the spirits.
    That answer is completely correct as God tells us to do this so that we can know false or correct teaching.

    I never said there was a 'verifiable way' to others so the point is mute. Basically, you are asking me, just a regular human to somehow prove God to you, on the internet no less. We are not even in the same place together. We all know that is an impossible task. Do you expect me to ask God to come and see you in a burning bush or something? I mean come on. We each meet God with our own spirit. It's a one to one experience.

    There are only two spiritual 'sides', God and his angels, Satan and his fallen angels.

    If a person has had contact from the spiritual realm, which is as real as the physical, there are only those two sides.
    Of course, we also have our own minds, not saying that we don't, but the spiritual is just as real. The fact is you experience the spiritual realm in various ways, but you write it off as something else. When you walk by a New Age shop and they are doing a great trade in crystals etc they are there for a reason. They are filling a spiritual need that people are not even aware that they have. What they are promoting is satan if they are aware of it or not. Even angrily denouncing Gods existence is a spiritual acknowledgement because if someone 100% believes that God isn't real they would not have so much interest in him. Your very interest shows otherwise.

    I assume this was back to my post about testing the spirits? A post intended for Christians only. Christians already have God (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit)
    as an established fact.

    And I explained how you test and discern if the teaching is false. The false agent will only quote scripture to a certain extent for their own purposes.
    Paul Heals a Girl with a Demon
    16 One day as we were going to the place to pray, we met a servant-girl who could tell what was going to happen in the future by a demon she had. Her owner made much money from her power. 17 She followed Paul and us crying out, “These are servants of the Highest God. They are telling you how to be saved from the punishment of sin.” 18 She did this many days. Paul was troubled. Then he turned and said to the demon in her, “In the name of Jesus Christ, I speak to you. Come out of her!” At once it left her.
    A Christain who is testing the spirits with their eyes upon Christ will not be deceived or will quickly realize that Satan is trying to deceive them.
    This fact will not change how ever many times you ask about it.

    Not immediately, when I first became a believer I didn't know the scriptures that well or understand the importance of creation. I was confused over it more than anything so I ignored it as many people do. A couple of years after that I was blessed with sound teaching on the matter. Like anyone, I am a work in progress. I have changed from being an agnostic to being a seeker to being a Christian to being a stronger Christian.
    Creation isn't important due to 'God making everything in 6 days' even though he did.
    Exodus 20:11
    For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them

    Creation is important because it is linked to the Gospel message of how sin came to be, why sin = death and how Jesus paid the price for our sin. Without a literal fall, the Gospel message crumbles, but many seem unaware of this fact. Many would rather cling to the Gospel while ignoring creation. Just because they are clinging with their mind to worldly teaching does not mean they don't have the Holy Spirit, it just means they are allowing their mind and soul to rule, at least in this area. The Holy Spirit isn't bossy, he won't simply take over without your permission.

    Creation was a miracle. Just like God it can't be measured or tested. Testing it is a futile effort as all that shows is how it is now. Science can be very useful when we need to understand how things work in the here and now like how a drug acts on the human body. But the world we have now does not resemble how it was at creation. The bare earth was made before time even begin on the world. Time did not start until Genesis verse 3. This is when the 6 days of creation began, before that the earth was there but empty and formless.

    No, this is not what this thread is about, it's what your posts have been about.

    As I have said, I came in to answer the OPs question of how we can know something is a word from God. That was my answer to the question I thought he was posting.
    I would very much like to hear from him what his position is, but since his profile says 'reformed' and I checked that before posting, I think I am correct in saying this was not about criteria for God.

    I have nothing to comment on about those videos. God deals with each of us how we need him to. I would need to know what those churches are teaching to 'test the spirits' before making any kind of comment. You can't judge by how things look.
    1 Samuel 16:7
    But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
    Am I God that I can view these peoples hearts? No. That is for God alone.

    Of course, our own thoughts can intrude. How many times do I need to say this is why we take our eyes off God, and like Peter sink beneath the waves. Peter was a few meters away from Jesus himself and still sunk, so how much more easily can we sink? This is why there is so much disagreement. It is not God at fault, it is us, fragile imperfect humans. Just because we get things wrong does not make God's existence not real it just points to how fallen we are. Are you understanding this yet?

    This is why we can be distracted or mislead buy our minds and bodies. Our three parts are not separate but linked. I am sure you can understand that at least your mind and body are linked together, yes? The Spirit is simply the third part.

    This is how God has always dealt with me. Who am I to judge how he deals with someone else?
    God knows what we each need but he also knows how we will respond. Saul needed that road on Damascus experience, but God also knew the outcome of it.

    What other book claims to be God's word? have a link for the above?

    This is again an example of fragile humanity whose mind has been led astray.
    2 Corinthians 11:3
    But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
    Scripture warns us again and again about being led astray.

    Are you referring to the story of the man that drowned? I think it illustrates well how we can miss God or assume things about him.

    All I know is that God deals with the nation of Israel in a different way.

    Never heard of him, but if he claims that then he is a demon or being lead by a demon.
    Did this Xenu die for mankind's sins?
    Like I said there are only two sides. Anything not of God is of satan.

    While I see your point, you refuse to accept mine.

    People are lead stay by their body and minds. Just because a Christian you meet today says something does not mean they will tell you the same thing in 5 years time. They may have grown and changed by then. Also, they do need to be a born again believer with the Holy Spirit. There are plenty of religious people around without the Holy Spirit.
    All these people may call themselves Christians but will all have something different to say. This doesn't make God wrong, it makes people wrong. Stop listing so much to people are go read the scripture for yourself, but you need to be open to it.
    1 Corinthians 2:14
    The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
    No offence but this is where you are right now.
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
  15. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

    United States
    Yes, the thread responses are getting rather long :) For sake in brevity, I'll issue bullet points, which seem relevant or important here :)

    -- Let's just assume I'm a deist. My responses are quite relevant. My (6) points in red address how you may discern if you are receiving messages from a Holy Spirit, verses other. It looks as though your validation methods include both (1) and (4) from post #93. And as you will quickly notice, there really is no way to discern contact from an external force, verses only your own thoughts. And as you will also notice, just because you sometimes hear voices, does not mean it is coming from, not only an external force, but YHWH specifically.

    -- You immediately assume only two spiritual realms exist - (God's and Satan's). You seem quite narrow minded. You might want to study up on the topic of [external-world skepticism]. In essence, there exists an infinite number of plausible choices, when one immediately assumes they are receiving messages from an external and/or unverified source. You immediately only assume there exists one, which is either God's team or Satan's team. Tisk tisk :)

    -- Your assertion is that you know if the Spirit is giving you correct information, if it falls in line with what the Bible says. But this merely again begs the question, HOW do you KNOW the NT was inspired by an actual Messiah? Maybe Jesus is just another false prophet, like all the others? Again, maybe the Jews are correct? Again, if a deceiving spirit has free will, and can perform magic, what is to stop them? Maybe the 'incorrect' word IS the NT? How could you know? Did you even think what the first Commandment states? Maybe the spirits falsified a messiah, got millions/billions to worship this messiah, to detour your faith away from the real God? Again, how could you know or verify?

    -- Again, you claim whoever has the Spirit, will be consistent with one another. But this is certainly not the case. And every successive response you issue, demonstrates more and more how this is certainly not the case. Heck, even when it come to the topic of 'salvation', some assert grace alone, others assert grace by faith, and others still will assert grace by both faith and works are required. You guys have absolutely NO consistency anywhere. Let alone whether or not the 'flood' was a literal event or not...

    -- How do you know YOUR mind is not the one "led astray"?.?.?.?

    -- If God deals with Israelites in a different way, then God plays favorites, based upon something for which they cannot control --- their blood line. Classic 'favoritism', by definition, pure and simple. Seems <more> likely and logical a sect of Jews may have invented this rule, verses any claimed equally loving being ;)

    -- No offense, but it more-so looks to be you whom is narrow minded here. You obviously have not explored all possible avenues. I freely admit I have not as well. There does not exist nearly enough time to really explore them all. But what I can tell you, is that I had faith for 3 decades, and lost it. -- Which is another subject altogether.
  16. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    I believe the commandments are from God on how to live life & for everlasting life. On a lesser level, they are a basis of common sense. ( Matthew 19:16-19).

    I cannot force anyone to agree with them which would undermine living life by them. I only try to persuade someone that this is what is necessary for living life unto everlasting life.
  17. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

    United States
    Who's common sense? If it is basic 'common sense', then couldn't a human have written them without any help from a divine agent?
  18. muichimotsu

    muichimotsu I Spit On Perfection

    United States
    I feel like the response is going to be in the vein that those aren't important, which is more deflection about the inconsistent revelation and divine hiddenness problem.

    But if all they have to appeal to is orthodoxy, then it's a bald argument from authority about what is "true" belief and what is heretical and deception. If a Unitarian Christian agrees with a Trinitarian on EVERYTHING else but the theology proper and, obviously, Christology, then which of them is right if the standard of orthodoxy is admitted to not be reliable or objective?
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