Criteria for God's Word

Tree of Life

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Suppose that a personal God exists. Suppose that this God does communicate with humanity. I think it's safe to assume that if God exists then we should expect that he would communicate with us, but that's an argument for another thread. Let's just suppose that here. The question now would be "where has God spoken?" How can we access God's words or communication with God? How would we know God's words when we encounter them?

What would you propose are critera for determining whether something is a word from God?

I'll just give one idea as an example. I would propose that a word from God would claim to be a word from God.
 
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cvanwey

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Suppose that a personal God exists. Suppose that this God does communicate with humanity. I think it's safe to assume that if God exists then we should expect that he would communicate with us, but that's an argument for another thread. Let's just suppose that here. The question now would be "where has God spoken?" How can we access God's words or communication with God? How would we know God's words when we encounter them?

What would you propose are criterion for determining whether something is a word from God?

I'll just give one idea as an example. I would propose that a word from God would claim to be a word from God.

Honestly, I don't know for sure. But just because I do not know for sure, does that also mean we cannot effectively rule out the plausibility of other's assertions, by using reason and logic alone?.?.?.?

Examples:

- Group A is told to completely destroy group B. - OT
- Men > women - OT/NT
- Sacrifice the first thing which comes out of your house - OT
- The golden rule - OT/NT
- 'God told me to kill my child' - OT/News
- 'God gave me the wisdom to perform this or that' - heard ad nauseam
 
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Tree of Life

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Honestly, I don't know for sure. But just because I do not know for sure, does that also mean we cannot effectively rule out the plausibility of other's assertions, by using reason and logic alone?.?.?.?

Examples:

- Group A is told to completely destroy group B. - OT
- Men > women - OT/NT
- Sacrifice the first thing which comes out of your house - OT
- The golden rule - OT/NT
- 'God told me to kill my child' - OT/News
- 'God gave me the wisdom to perform this or that' - heard ad nauseam

Are you saying that God's word would not contradict itself?
 
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cvanwey

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Are you saying that God's word would not contradict itself?

Partially, I guess...?.?.?. But this seems like it is merely the tip of the 'iceberg'. God may be completely inconsistent in reality?

Your question, which looks to be one I might present to a Christian BTW, essentially asks...

Many Christians claim God's direct Word. How can we distinguish the genuine encounters from the counterfeit?

Thus far, here's my assertion.

I say they are ALL counterfeit 'God encounters', until proven otherwise. Why?

Can you name for me a single claim, from God, which could not have also been contributed from 'man' alone? And IF you can, then we still must deal with external world skepticism, moving forward.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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I don't know, but this does remind me of the Carl Sagan novel and movie contact that was actually strangely spiritual in its tone and message. Sagan seems to be aware that any alien intelligence able to contact us must be quiet a bit more advanced that we are, and that would present it's own challenges of epistemology, faith etc.

 
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2PhiloVoid

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I don't know, but this does remind me of the Carl Sagan novel and movie contact that was actually strangely spiritual in its tone and message. Sagan seems to be aware that any alien intelligence able to contact us must be quiet a bit more advanced that we are, and that would present it's own challenges of epistemology, faith etc.


That's one of my favorite movies. Good choice as an illustration, Pavel!
 
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cvanwey

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I don't know, but this does remind me of the Carl Sagan novel and movie contact that was actually strangely spiritual in its tone and message. Sagan seems to be aware that any alien intelligence able to contact us must be quiet a bit more advanced that we are, and that would present it's own challenges of epistemology, faith etc.


I liked this movie. But please remember the very end...

'Faith' that she spoke to 'others', seemed virtually necessary, UNTIL it was revealed of the 18 hours of recorded footage, which would not be possible if her ship fell from point A to point B. When Angela Bessett was speaking to James Woods, they both looked to have 'evidence', which then no longer required any type of 'blind faith' ;).

But in these such cases, of humans claiming God's Word, do we have such direct evidence?
 
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Tree of Life

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Partially, I guess...?.?.?. But this seems like it is merely the tip of the 'iceberg'. God may be completely inconsistent in reality?


I would think that a person like God would be perfectly consistent with himself. That seems superior than being in conflict with oneself.

Your question, which looks to be one I might present to a Christian BTW, essentially asks...

Many Christians claim God's direct Word. How can we distinguish the genuine encounters from the counterfeit?

Thus far, here's my assertion.

I say they are ALL counterfeit 'God encounters', until proven otherwise. Why?

When I ask about criteria, I’m asking what sorts of things would “prove otherwise”.

Can you name for me a single claim, from God, which could not have also been contributed from 'man' alone? And IF you can, then we still must deal with external world skepticism, moving forward.

So you’re saying that a criterion could be revealed information that mankind could not figure out without divine help?
 
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cvanwey

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I would think that a person like God would be perfectly consistent with himself. That seems superior than being in conflict with oneself.

Just because something has the ability to create, does not automatically mean they must also be consistent, do they?

Furthermore, it would appear that God may not be consistent, if we are to also automatically completely trust that the Bible was completely God inspired, or 'God's Word'?


When I ask about criteria, I’m asking what sorts of things would “prove otherwise”.

As I stated from the jump, 'honestly, I don't know for sure.' But as I also pointed out, just because we admit doubt, does not mean we still cannot effectively rule other specific elements out of the equation.

Case/point: A presented math problem is placed upon the board. You do not know the answer. Your colleague raises their hand and states 'ham sandwich.' Is your complete doubt of their given answer warranted, even though you yourself do not know the actual answer? I'd say likely so....

Here's a logical starting point or stance.... I doubt God has spoken to anyone, until such time as to any given demonstration otherwise. I feel this is a fairly descent default stance to take, verses the contrary - that God speaks to everyone, by default. How about you? How did [you] discern God does actually speak to certain people, or all people?

As I also stated in my first response, if someone states 'God told them to kill their child', how would you rule out that God did not tell them to?

You see, I start all claims with, I don't believe any of you whom claim God speaks to them. Do you start with the contrary?

So you’re saying that a criterion could be revealed information that mankind could not figure out without divine help?

It would be a series of 'rule outs.' If the human could not provide such insight upon their own cognition, then I guess we safely shift away from the human's own ability, to the topic of external world skepticism as the next broad topic. Does this sound like a logical approach to you?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I liked this movie. But please remember the very end...

'Faith' that she spoke to 'others', seemed virtually necessary, UNTIL it was revealed of the 18 hours of recorded footage, which would not be possible if her ship fell from point A to point B. When Angela Bessett was speaking to James Woods, they both looked to have 'evidence', which then no longer required any type of 'blind faith' ;).

But in these such cases, of humans claiming God's Word, do we have such direct evidence?

Do you even remember the movie, cvanwey? You seem to be missing a HUGE bit of understanding about the point of the ending. It WASN'T simply that there could be some evidence..........................the movie implied that there were problems for the application of any stringent Logical analysis or of Hermeneutics; very serious complications were involved in the ending situation of CONTACT, complications that could not be remedied or solved by mere logic alone.

Go watch the movie again! And then, afterward, not only understand the movie correctly, but SEE that there is a similar epistemological dilemma in it very much like our attempts today to engage the Bible and thereby find faith in its concepts and entities.
 
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ananda

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Suppose that a personal God exists. Suppose that this God does communicate with humanity. I think it's safe to assume that if God exists then we should expect that he would communicate with us, but that's an argument for another thread. Let's just suppose that here. The question now would be "where has God spoken?" How can we access God's words or communication with God? How would we know God's words when we encounter them?

What would you propose are critera for determining whether something is a word from God?

I'll just give one idea as an example. I would propose that a word from God would claim to be a word from God.
If the word "God" refers to someone/something infallible, then IMO its communication should also be infallible , unquestionable, and directly accessible to each and every individual throughout time and space (without need for fallible intermediaries like men or women, paper, human language, translators, translations, etc.).

The only thing I can think of that fulfills all those requirements are the fixed, observable Laws governing Reality, which we (Buddhists) refer to as the Dhamma.
 
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jayem

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If the word "God" refers to someone/something infallible, then IMO its communication should also be infallible , unquestionable, and directly accessible to each and every individual throughout time and space (without need for fallible intermediaries like men or women, paper, human language, translators, translations, etc.)

Absolutely. If there really was only one god, who desired to communicate with us, then that god’s word would be unmistakably clear and uniform to everyone. The fact that people throughout history have believed in thousands of different gods, with differing characteristics, scriptures, doctrines, and worship rituals proves to me that gods are all culture-dependent human creations.
 
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cvanwey

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Do you even remember the movie, cvanwey? You seem to be missing a HUGE bit of understanding about the point of the ending. It WASN'T simply that there could be some evidence..........................the movie implied that there were problems for the application of any stringent Logical analysis or of Hermeneutics; very serious complications were involved in the ending situation of CONTACT, complications that could not be remedied or solved by mere logic alone.

Go watch the movie again! And then, afterward, not only understand the movie correctly, but SEE that there is a similar epistemological dilemma in it very much like our attempts today to engage the Bible and thereby find faith in its concepts and entities.

Someone got up on the wrong side of bed. No, I will not watch the movie again :) @Tree of Life is asking what criteria we would accept for God's Word? I happily admitted that I do not know. I watched this movie when it came out. I remember it being a great movie. I also remember it touching quite a bit on 'faith' and 'religion'.

Let me elaborate on my prior point.... When the ship 'looked' to drop straight through, plunging into the water, all viewed the project as a failure. Jodie insisted she went to 'another place', for a period of time. The only one, whom took her story on 'faith' was Matthew - (the religious guy). But immediately, when Angela and James were made aware of the new evidence, that the recorder recorded for 18 hours, they both had a 'change of heart', or a pause, and no longer would require blind faith, to just take Jodie's story at face value. Seems as though, in that case, the criteria to believe Jodie was delusional or completely mistaken, was now demonstrated otherwise by evidence :)

Moving forward, when someone states, 'God told me to this or that', WHAT CRITERIA would we deem acceptable? Well, what criteria would any of us deem as acceptable to take their claim as even plausible???

Like I have stated, I don't know for sure? All we know is that many claim to speak to Him/God, but many come from differing 'faiths' and beliefs, in many differing god(s). They are likely not all right. Right? But they all can certainly be wrong.

I now present to you, as I have of @Tree of Life

Here's a logical starting point or stance.... I doubt God has spoken to anyone, until such time as to any given demonstration otherwise. I feel this is a fairly descent default stance to take, verses the contrary - that God speaks to everyone, by default. How about you? How did [you] discern God does actually speak to certain people, or all people?

When someone claims God told them to kill their child, how do we know if they are delusional, mistaken, or lying?
 
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essentialsaltes

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I'll just give one idea as an example. I would propose that a word from God would claim to be a word from God.

False messages would also include that in order to deceive. So it's not very useful for discriminating the true from the false.
 
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Tree of Life

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False messages would also include that in order to deceive. So it's not very useful for discriminating the true from the false.

Obviously more criteria is needed. But I think it would be strange if God’s word did not specify that it was from God.
 
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RoseCrystal

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Suppose that a personal God exists. Suppose that this God does communicate with humanity. I think it's safe to assume that if God exists then we should expect that he would communicate with us, but that's an argument for another thread. Let's just suppose that here. The question now would be "where has God spoken?" How can we access God's words or communication with God? How would we know God's words when we encounter them?

What would you propose are critera for determining whether something is a word from God?

I'll just give one idea as an example. I would propose that a word from God would claim to be a word from God.

I think God would have to claim it himself. Like maybe write the book himself and show up in front of thousands of people to hand it over to them publicly.

Show up and publicly say 'hey I'm God, I created you and here's my book I wrote for you'

Give humanity knowledge in the said book beyond their current status like maybe the existence of germs/don't keep slaves/women are equal/don't stone people to death/cool technology

Stuff like that
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I think God would have to claim it himself. Like maybe write the book himself and show up in front of thousands of people to hand it over to them publicly.

Show up and publicly say 'hey I'm God, I created you and here's my book I wrote for you'

Give humanity knowledge in the said book beyond their current status like maybe the existence of germs/don't keep slaves/women are equal/don't stone people to death/cool technology

Stuff like that

Personally, I think God already has shown up, written something out and handed it to 'humanity.' It's just that we don't like the Media that He used to do it with ... i.e. the human minds (and hearts) of His Disciples.
 
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