ViaCrucis

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Well, yes an no …accountability is just a reference to understanding. And it is necessary to understand if we are to accept the new covenant (Rom 10:9) and be baptized in the spirit.

For my kids it was age 6 & 7 that they accepted Jesus as their Lord and both spoke in tongues….but it varies with the individual.

Prior to accountably (understanding) they are sanctified by their parents 1Co 7:14.

If it is your position that Romans 10:9 means that one must be capable of having a certain level of understanding of the Christian faith; then what do you do with those who are unable? Or who, perhaps, have an insufficient understanding, or perhaps are mistaken?

I don't believe that Paul's point here is that we can't be saved unless we are capable of having "understanding", rather Paul's point is what he goes on to say:

"For the Scripture says,' Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.' For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'" - Romans 10:11-13

Paul is saying that the Gospel is for both Jew and Gentile, after all that is the entire thesis statement of Romans, "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Greek." (Romans 1:16). Because, as he continues in the same place, "By the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, just as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'" (Romans 1:17).

All who call on Jesus, all who hear and believe (Romans 10:14-17), will be saved. God does not favor one people over another; for both Jew and Gentile, for slave and freeman, for young and old, Jesus and what God has done through Jesus is for everyone; that through faith we might be justified on Christ's account (Romans 5:19).

But this legalistic reading of Romans 10:9 of yours turns the message of good news for all sinners to an obstacle that we must overcome by our own power and will. Though, he has clearly taught elsewhere that "It is by grace that you have been saved, through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, so that none may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Calling on the name of the Lord, believing upon Him, is not a work that must be accomplished by human ability and understanding; but is the power of the very Gospel itself to create faith in us, that we look to and depend upon Christ, have faith in Christ.

It's not about us. It's about Jesus Christ.

The alternative, I imagine, is that children and those who don't understand (say those with learning disabilities) have an automatic salvation of some kind. In which case, you just undermine your own position that one must confess with their mouth and believe in their heart.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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If it is your position that Romans 10:9 means that one must be capable of having a certain level of understanding of the Christian faith; then what do you do with those who are unable? Or who, perhaps, have an insufficient understanding, or perhaps are mistaken?

I don't believe that Paul's point here is that we can't be saved unless we are capable of having "understanding", rather Paul's point is what he goes on to say:

"For the Scripture says,' Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.' For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'" - Romans 10:11-13

Paul is saying that the Gospel is for both Jew and Gentile, after all that is the entire thesis statement of Romans, "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Greek." (Romans 1:16). Because, as he continues in the same place, "By the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, just as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'" (Romans 1:17).

All who call on Jesus, all who hear and believe (Romans 10:14-17), will be saved. God does not favor one people over another; for both Jew and Gentile, for slave and freeman, for young and old, Jesus and what God has done through Jesus is for everyone; that through faith we might be justified on Christ's account (Romans 5:19).

But this legalistic reading of Romans 10:9 of yours turns the message of good news for all sinners to an obstacle that we must overcome by our own power and will. Though, he has clearly taught elsewhere that "It is by grace that you have been saved, through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, so that none may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Calling on the name of the Lord, believing upon Him, is not a work that must be accomplished by human ability and understanding; but is the power of the very Gospel itself to create faith in us, that we look to and depend upon Christ, have faith in Christ.

It's not about us. It's about Jesus Christ.

The alternative, I imagine, is that children and those who don't understand (say those with learning disabilities) have an automatic salvation of some kind. In which case, you just undermine your own position that one must confess with their mouth and believe in their heart.

-CryptoLutheran
A fetus that passes from this world, goes back to God, for grace is natural and ready for them and they for grace, having not yet sinned and not yet led to false beliefs.

Grace, the Holy Spirit and the blood of the Lamb of God come through faith. For some they live to have faith and receive grace, are born again and water baptized. Others at a young age pass away and enter the light of the after life. Some mature people also report such an experience at a later stage in life. 1 in 20 people report a NDE due modern medical science and resuscitation. But they did not have faith in some cases.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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A fairly significant problem here is that you are conflating John's baptism of repentance with Christian Baptism. But these aren't the same thing.

Jesus instituted His baptism--Christian Baptism--in the Great Commission, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit".

The very first reference of Christian Baptism taking place isn't until Acts 2, when the three thousand Jewish pilgrims were baptized and became Christians (Acts of the Apostles 2:41).

Your commentary on many of these verses introduces a lot of assumptions that the text itself doesn't require. For one, Acts 22:16 doesn't say that they had to call on Christ before being baptized, but rather places the calling on the name of the Lord as being part of the baptism itself--they are calling on His name by being baptized. Romans 6:3 does not say we have to understand the atoning work of Jesus, it says what Baptism itself does and means: the one who is baptized (regardless if they understand it or not) is baptized into Jesus, His death, and thus are buried with Him by Baptism, and raised up to new life with Him.

You are forcing your doctrine into the text, rather than the text becoming your doctrine. The words of the text mean what they say, you don't need to improve the Bible, the Bible doesn't need improving, it's already perfect.

-CryptoLutheran

I know the difference between John's and Jesus' baptisms. It is what the person understands that determines which they receive.

I think to call on His name takes understanding and honest desire.

Our parents cannot decide on these things for us.

And not being water baptized or even not being born again in this life, does not mean little ones go to limbo if they die early.
 
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ViaCrucis

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A fetus that passes from this world, goes back to God, for grace is natural and ready for them and they for grace, having not yet sinned and not yet led to false beliefs.

Grace, the Holy Spirit and the blood of the Lamb of God come through faith. For some they live to have faith and receive grace, are born again and water baptized. Others at a young age pass away and enter the light of the after life. Some mature people also report such an experience at a later stage in life. 1 in 20 people report a NDE due modern medical science and resuscitation. But they did not have faith in some cases.

So God can't use baptism to work and create faith in people. But some people, on the basis of near death experiences, are saved entirely apart from Jesus Christ?

Am I understanding you correctly?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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I know the difference between John's and Jesus' baptisms. It is what the person understands that determines which they receive.

I think to call on His name takes understanding and honest desire.

Our parents cannot decide on these things for us.

And not being water baptized or even not being born again in this life, does not mean little ones go to limbo if they die early.

Why even bring up limbo?

I don't think that one can't be saved merely because they didn't receive baptism. So that's a straw man.

But if you are willing to believe the things you've said, which have no biblical support whatsoever; why would you have a problem with God working through His means, such as Baptism, to give faith? When we know that, on the basis of Scripture, God works and creates faith by His grace through His word, and that His word is present in Baptism?

Why reject biblical things and believe non-biblical things just to suit your personal theological opinions?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Why even bring up limbo?

Limbus infantum is no longer the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. This doctrine was dropped from the Catechism of the Catholic Church in 1992.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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So God can't use baptism to work and create faith in people. But some people, on the basis of near death experiences, are saved entirely apart from Jesus Christ?

Am I understanding you correctly?

-CryptoLutheran
1 Timothy 4:10
We are in God's hands when we die, and for the unchurched, there is still hope of salvation from Christ even then.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Why even bring up limbo?

I don't think that one can't be saved merely because they didn't receive baptism. So that's a straw man.

But if you are willing to believe the things you've said, which have no biblical support whatsoever; why would you have a problem with God working through His means, such as Baptism, to give faith? When we know that, on the basis of Scripture, God works and creates faith by His grace through His word, and that His word is present in Baptism?

Why reject biblical things and believe non-biblical things just to suit your personal theological opinions?

-CryptoLutheran
The old theology necessitated baptism even for infants, fearing their fate if they die before choosing baptism in water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. So in teaching, they invented Limbo for the infants who died, not knowing whether or not they would inherit eternal life without water baptism. It is a new theology to be sure of infant mortality salvations.

It sounds like you also have a new theology.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Limbus infantum is no longer the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. This doctrine was dropped from the Catechism of the Catholic Church in 1992.
In dropping the theological concept of Limbo, they also may drop infant baptism?

In 1999 the RCC also dropped that salvation is by faith after good work are being produced.
So now it is by faith, when we receive grace, the Spirit, and then good works should follow.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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In dropping the theological concept of Limbo, they also may drop infant baptism?

The RCC dropping infant baptism is like credobaptist dropping the "Age of Accountability" If there is one doctrine that both credos and paedo can agree on....The "Age of Accountability" is the grandest theological innovation in the last 300 years.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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The RCC dropping infant baptism is like credobaptist dropping the "Age of Accountability" If there is one doctrine that both credos and paedo can agree on....The "Age of Accountability" is the grandest theological innovation in the last 300 years.
But Aint't Zwinglian if there is surety for infants who pass, why baptize them while still young? It was fears that led to infant baptism.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The old theology necessitated baptism even for infants, fearing their fate if they die before choosing baptism in water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. So in teaching, they invented Limbo for the infants who died, not knowing whether or not they would inherit eternal life without water baptism. It is a new theology to be sure of infant mortality salvations.

It sounds like you also have a new theology.

The ancient Church didn't baptize infants because if they weren't baptized they would go to limbo. Limbo has never been official teaching by Rome, but was a pure speculation first proposed by St. Augustine. In the West it was never doctrine, and it is entirely unknown in the Eastern Churches.

Neither in East or West has there been a belief that salvation is impossible if one isn't baptized. So your understanding of the "old theology" is quite mistaken. The Church baptized infants since the beginning because Christ told His Church to baptize--there was never any reason to exclude children from the Church. The Church has never believed in depriving the little ones of Jesus, of participation in the life of the Body of Christ. The Church is founded upon Jesus Christ and His promises, not on the doctrines of men which would seek to put limits on God's grace.

Every time men came along and tried to put limits and restrictions on God and His grace the Church came out and said "No, we don't do that". That's why the Novations were condemned, that's why the Donatists were condemned--they were condemned because these were men who wanted to limit God's grace and say who could and couldn't be part of Jesus' Body. It's the same reason Paul condemned the Judaizers, and proclaimed that Jesus Christ and His Gospel is for both Jew and Gentile, for Greek and Barbarian and Scythian, for bondman and freeman, for men and women. God doesn't play favorites; our God is a God of uncompromising compassion for all sinners, and welcomes all to know Him through faith in His Son.

And so when men today come along and try and put limits and restrictions on God's grace, we must still stand up and say "No, we don't do that". We must stand firm in the confession which we have had from the first: God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that all who trust in Him will not perish but have life everlasting; that God demonstrates His love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us; that though we be the chief of sinners Christ Jesus came to save sinners. We stand boldly in statu confessionis, in a bold state of confession: We preach the Cross, though it be foolishness to the Greeks and a stumbling block to the Jews, though it be called absurd by the philosophers and the sages of this world, and mocked by the strong: God chose the weak and foolish things to demonstrate His wisdom and power, and for us who are being saved Jesus Christ is the wisdom and power of God, and for us righteousness, holiness, and our very redemption. For He says, "My grace is sufficient for you, My power is made evident in weakness."

Therefore lift up this Cross, though the world mock us and throw us to the lions or light our bodies in flames, lift high this Cross, and proclaim it to the ends of the earth: There is forgiveness in Jesus Christ for every man, woman, and little child; for the old man and the young, for the rich fools and the poor beggars, for the slave and the free, for the strong and the weak. Say to the oppressor, Repent and believe, and say to the oppressed God is with them. For Jesus Christ is Lord, and He has suffered, died, and rose again--the Crucified Lamb of God reigns upon the throne at the right hand of God the Father, and the Day will come when He shall return, and every kingdom and power shall become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, He shall reign forever and ever. Though your sins be as crimson, yet shall they be white as snow, Christ the Lord reigns, He is risen, you have forgiveness, come all who are weary and He will give you rest.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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But Aint't Zwinglian if there is surety for infants who pass, why baptize them while still young? It was fears that led to infant baptism.

Untrue. They were baptized because Christ Jesus will not refuse the little ones, though men may try and stop it, He will not. Our God is no respecter of persons, but is the God of all mercy and healing: The God of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, the God of promises, the God of all grace. Who sent His only-begotten Son for you, for me, for the whole world.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Limbus infantum is no longer the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. This doctrine was dropped from the Catechism of the Catholic Church in 1992.

And it was never even doctrine in Rome, but merely an opinion. But it apparently makes for a convenient straw-man.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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The ancient Church didn't baptize infants because if they weren't baptized they would go to limbo. Limbo has never been official teaching by Rome, but was a pure speculation first proposed by St. Augustine. In the West it was never doctrine, and it is entirely unknown in the Eastern Churches.

Neither in East or West has there been a belief that salvation is impossible if one isn't baptized. So your understanding of the "old theology" is quite mistaken. The Church baptized infants since the beginning because Christ told His Church to baptize--there was never any reason to exclude children from the Church. The Church has never believed in depriving the little ones of Jesus, of participation in the life of the Body of Christ. The Church is founded upon Jesus Christ and His promises, not on the doctrines of men which would seek to put limits on God's grace.

Every time men came along and tried to put limits and restrictions on God and His grace the Church came out and said "No, we don't do that". That's why the Novations were condemned, that's why the Donatists were condemned--they were condemned because these were men who wanted to limit God's grace and say who could and couldn't be part of Jesus' Body. It's the same reason Paul condemned the Judaizers, and proclaimed that Jesus Christ and His Gospel is for both Jew and Gentile, for Greek and Barbarian and Scythian, for bondman and freeman, for men and women. God doesn't play favorites; our God is a God of uncompromising compassion for all sinners, and welcomes all to know Him through faith in His Son.

And so when men today come along and try and put limits and restrictions on God's grace, we must still stand up and say "No, we don't do that". We must stand firm in the confession which we have had from the first: God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that all who trust in Him will not perish but have life everlasting; that God demonstrates His love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us; that though we be the chief of sinners Christ Jesus came to save sinners. We stand boldly in statu confessionis, in a bold state of confession: We preach the Cross, though it be foolishness to the Greeks and a stumbling block to the Jews, though it be called absurd by the philosophers and the sages of this world, and mocked by the strong: God chose the weak and foolish things to demonstrate His wisdom and power, and for us who are being saved Jesus Christ is the wisdom and power of God, and for us righteousness, holiness, and our very redemption. For He says, "My grace is sufficient for you, My power is made evident in weakness."

Therefore lift up this Cross, though the world mock us and throw us to the lions or light our bodies in flames, lift high this Cross, and proclaim it to the ends of the earth: There is forgiveness in Jesus Christ for every man, woman, and little child; for the old man and the young, for the rich fools and the poor beggars, for the slave and the free, for the strong and the weak. Say to the oppressor, Repent and believe, and say to the oppressed God is with them. For Jesus Christ is Lord, and He has suffered, died, and rose again--the Crucified Lamb of God reigns upon the throne at the right hand of God the Father, and the Day will come when He shall return, and every kingdom and power shall become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, He shall reign forever and ever. Though your sins be as crimson, yet shall they be white as snow, Christ the Lord reigns, He is risen, you have forgiveness, come all who are weary and He will give you rest.

-CryptoLutheran
According the John 3 we must be born again, best before we die, that means receiving the grace, the Spirit, to heart by faith. Surely infants who die can receive this after. As a boy I was taught baptism of infants was because of the need to be sure of their salvation, even my cousin, still born, was baptized.

It is apparent that to have life, to be perfect or holy, we must have things like the new birth, the fruit of the Spirit which follows and living water and the blood of Christ, actual, and local filling us, to set us standing perfect in God's view. Or else we are no longer to stand in God's presence, but be cast out.

It takes evangelism and angels... for us to receive these graces. Infants can't understand preaching, but prayers and the Spirit can touch their hearts.

In Catholic baptism, it is expected that the child is born again. Otherwise if he or she dies, then what?

New birth, Jesus's sacred blood and living water, to name a few, should have evidence first to the receiver and also for those who hear the testimony, and preaching and have their laying on of hands. A clean heart, no fear, a clear conscience, acting justly, loving mercy, grace, peace, joy, knowledge...
 
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ViaCrucis

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According the John 3 we must be born again, best before we die, that means receiving the grace, the Spirit, to heart by faith. Surely infants who die can receive this after. As a boy I was taught baptism of infants was because of the need to be sure of their salvation, even my cousin, still born, was baptized.

It is apparent that to have life, to be perfect or holy, we must have things like the new birth, the fruit of the Spirit which follows and living water and the blood of Christ, actual, and local filling us, to set us standing perfect in God's view. Or else we are no longer to stand in God's presence, but be cast out.

It takes evangelism and angels... for us to receive these graces. Infants can't understand preaching, but prayers and the Spirit can touch their hearts.

In Catholic baptism, it is expected that the child is born again. Otherwise if he or she dies, then what?

New birth, Jesus's sacred blood and living water, to name a few, should have evidence first to the receiver and also for those who hear the testimony, and preaching and have their laying on of hands. A clean heart, no fear, a clear conscience, acting justly, loving mercy, grace, peace, joy, knowledge...

In Christian Baptism we are born again. Yes. That is what Scripture says and what Christians have always believed.

So the baptized child is born again, by the Spirit, as we read in John chapter 3 that one must be born again, which as Jesus gives more explicit detail, is "born of water and the Spirit" (John 3:5). Just as the Apostle says in Titus 3:5 that it is not by works that we are saved, but by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

That doesn't mean, however, that an unbaptized child can't be saved.

God created fire and fire burns, yes? If you put your hand over a flame what will happen?

And yet, we read in the book of Daniel that Daniel's three companions were cast into a fiery furnace and what happened to them? They were fine, not a single singe on their skin or clothing, they didn't even smell of smoke. How can this be?

The answer, of course, is God. If God can keep three grown men from being burned in a fiery furnace don't you think He can also save whomever?

The question concerning the unbaptized is the same question concerning the unreached, the unevangelized. Can those who have never heard the Gospel be saved?

Jesus tells us "With God all things are possible".

We don't baptize infants because if we don't then they are going to burn in hell or go to some imaginary place called limbo. We baptize infants because Jesus told His Church to baptize, to preach the Gospel, to make disciples of all nations--and our children are part of that "all nations". Jesus is for everybody.

So yes, we baptize them, and we preach to them. We don't shut them away from Jesus telling them that Jesus is only for the grown up. Instead, we teach them that Jesus loves them.

When I was a child there was a song we used to sing, "Jesus Loves All the Little Children". Well, those of us who practice infant baptism really do believe that song. Jesus does love all the little children, all the children of the world. Adults and academically trained theologians don't have a monopoly on Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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In Christian Baptism we are born again. Yes. That is what Scripture says and what Christians have always believed.

So the baptized child is born again, by the Spirit, as we read in John chapter 3 that one must be born again, which as Jesus gives more explicit detail, is "born of water and the Spirit" (John 3:5). Just as the Apostle says in Titus 3:5 that it is not by works that we are saved, but by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

That doesn't mean, however, that an unbaptized child can't be saved.

God created fire and fire burns, yes? If you put your hand over a flame what will happen?

And yet, we read in the book of Daniel that Daniel's three companions were cast into a fiery furnace and what happened to them? They were fine, not a single singe on their skin or clothing, they didn't even smell of smoke. How can this be?

The answer, of course, is God. If God can keep three grown men from being burned in a fiery furnace don't you think He can also save whomever?

The question concerning the unbaptized is the same question concerning the unreached, the unevangelized. Can those who have never heard the Gospel be saved?

Jesus tells us "With God all things are possible".

We don't baptize infants because if we don't then they are going to burn in hell or go to some imaginary place called limbo. We baptize infants because Jesus told His Church to baptize, to preach the Gospel, to make disciples of all nations--and our children are part of that "all nations". Jesus is for everybody.

So yes, we baptize them, and we preach to them. We don't shut them away from Jesus telling them that Jesus is only for the grown up. Instead, we teach them that Jesus loves them.

When I was a child there was a song we used to sing, "Jesus Loves All the Little Children". Well, those of us who practice infant baptism really do believe that song. Jesus does love all the little children, all the children of the world. Adults and academically trained theologians don't have a monopoly on Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
I agree with that, and a fetus passing from life enters life and is born again after dying. 1 Timothy 4:10. By being receptive to grace not having learned vice, they live.

Infants can't understand preaching.

Romans 10: 13-16 NKJV
13For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

14How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who https://biblehub.com/nkjv/romans/10.htm#footnotespreach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I agree with that, and a fetus passing from life enters life and is born again after dying. 1 Timothy 4:10. By being receptive to grace not having learned vice, they live.

Infants can't understand preaching.

Neither can a lot of adults, and nevertheless through preaching God works and creates faith. Even when what is being preached isn't necessarily being understood. You don't have to go far to find plenty of Christians who don't understand the Gospel, that doesn't change the fact that they do, in fact, trust in Christ as their Savior--they have faith.

Romans 10: 13-16 NKJV
13For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

14How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Exactly. It isn't a person's power of cognition, but the actual preaching of the word that does something.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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The Liturgist

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The ancient Church didn't baptize infants because if they weren't baptized they would go to limbo. Limbo has never been official teaching by Rome, but was a pure speculation first proposed by St. Augustine.

If I recall, what Augustine actually said was that infants who died without baptism went to Hell, but their torture would be the mildest of any present in that realm. Limbo in turn was an attempt to refine that into something more palatable.

It is worth noting that St. Augustine was never influential in the Eastern church (he was also not initially as influential in the Western Church as he would later become). In general, the main arguments against Pelagianism were taken from St. John Cassian, another Latin Father, who argued against Pelagianism without proposing, as St. Augustine controversially did, that original sin was transmitted through concupiscence.
 
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