Creationists: Does the earth look old?

[GodSaves]

so can you conclusively say that in Isaiah's time the a circle was commonly believed and used to mean flat? The hebrew I believe is described as a circle or sphere. Remeber the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, much more expressive languages then english.

EDIT: The Hebrew word for circle in Isaiah is Chuwg and as far as I have read, it means circle. I was wrong about it also being sphere. Sorry about that. Still the question remains can you conclusively say that in Isaiah's time the a circle was commonly believed and used to mean flat?

 

[Freodin]

so can you conclusively say that in Isaiah's time the a circle was commonly believed and used to mean flat? The hebrew I believe is described as a circle or sphere. Remeber the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, much more expressive languages then english.

Well, I can say that there is an hebrew word used to describe spherical objects, and that it is not the word used in this verse. I have to admit that I cannot give the reference right now.

But as the quote also says "He sits above..." (or something in that line), a sphere would not fit here, as "above" is is not a valid spatial descriptor for a three-dimensional object.

edit: that is a cop-out. Can you give evidence that this word was not commonly used to describe something triangular in that time? No, I don´t think so. So what it might have meant is not an argument that you should use.

 

[awstar]

If you want to use the famous Isaiah quote: A CIRCLE IS FLAT.

Gravity induces that, if Jesus did not had a very strong case of overweight as an infant, the universe would not revolve around him.

The PI reference comes from the discription of a vessel in the temple (Someone else will surely be able to give book, chaper and verse), that is described as ten feet diameter and 30 feet circumference.

Thanks for the Bible Study, Feodin. I looked up the pi thing. It comes from 1 Kings 7:23

And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: [it was] round all about, and his height [was] five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

It seems obvious to me that the thirty cubits describes the length of a line that "compass" the sea (bowl). Since the rim of the bowl is defined to be 10 cubits in diameter, the line would have to be shorter than the circumference of the rim, otherwise it wouldn't be seen. No?

Incidently, the word "compass" used here is different then the word compass used in the Isaiah quote. This one means "to turn, turn about or around or aside or back or towards, go about or around, surround, encircle, change direction" where the one in Isaiah means "circle, circuit, compass" so it doesn't seem to be implying PI at all, but just a decorative line.

 

[Lonnie]

"Yes, but why exactly, would God, in all his wisdom, add evidence of age?"

Evolutionists are the ones that infer the world is old. Not YECists.
But to awnser your question, I would not be to sure of why he would do that, but I am sure you can ask God why.

 

[GodSaves]

edit: that is a cop-out. Can you give evidence that this word was not commonly used to describe something triangular in that time? No, I don´t think so. So what it might have meant is not an argument that you should use.

It was you who made the assertion that a circle is flat and that was the intended meaning in Isaiah, correct? So can you prove your assertion to be true? The burden of proof lies on you, not me.

God Bless

 

[Arikay]

Godsaves: We can't conclusively say since there is no specific word in hebrew for sphere. However, by looking at the book of enoch (not cannon) we can see an example of Hebrew belief, which is of a flat earth with a dome sky, almost like a snowglobe. It is also strange that they didn't try to describe a sphere, but said circle instead.


Lonnie: Your right, YEC by definition doesn't say the earth is old, unfortunatly YEC groups require their members to ignore evidence because they don't believe they can be wrong. The evidence from Gods creation says the earth is old and the YEC groups ignore it.

 

[Lonnie]

"YEC groups require their members to ignore evidence because they don't believe they can be wrong."

I think, they(YEC) refute evolution, then sometimes evolutionists refute YEC refutations, then YEC sometimes refute the evolutionists (and then it either repeats, or they forget about the topic). Or atleast that is how I infer what is going on, but I am sure other people will infer else wise too.

 

[Philosoft]

I think, they(YEC) refute evolution, then sometimes evolutionists refute YEC refutations, then YEC sometimes refute the evolutionists (and then it either repeats, or they forget about the topic). Or atleast that is how I infer what is going on, but I am sure other people will infer else wise too.

I think there is a disconnect here. Science, at least as practiced by scientists, is still waiting for the first successful YEC refutation of some aspect of evolutionary theory.

 

[michabo]

Lonnie,

If a theory is falsified, it doesn't mean it is less significant, it means it is wrong. Finito, over, end, done. Evolution has not been falsified, but YEC has. This doesn't mean that there is a lively debate within scientific circles about the best explaination, it means that YEC is wrong, it means it is not possible. There is still debate about some aspects of evolution, but these are refinements on the central theory.

You also seem to think that it is YECers who are turning up the problems with some aspects of evolution. Also very wrong! They have yet to contribute anything significant. Their best "evidence" comes from respected scientists, evolutionists who might be arguing for punctuated equilibrium or alternatives. YEC just snipe from the sidelines, making use of the research of others but contributing nothing of their own.

 

[Mistermystery]

Re: Flat earth and the bible:

Job 26:10 is "He described a circle upon the face of the waters, until the day and night come to an end."

Isaiah 40:21-22 - "the circle of the Earth."

Revelations 7:1: "... things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the Earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the Earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. "

Job 38:13 "That it might take hold of the Ends of the Earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? "

Jeremiah 16:19 "O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the Ends of the Earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit."

Daniel 4:11 "The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the Ends of the Earth." (p.s. no tree could ever grow so tall that it was seen everywhere)

Matthew 4:8 "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them." (p.s. one fixed point to see every kingdom in the world? sounds unpossible to me, eventhough this one can be discarted as a vision).


My personal favorite is job 38:14 though:" The earth takes shape like clay under a seal. "

Have you ever seen a spherical seal?

I thought not.

Some people who are using Isaiah 40, carefully ignore other verses of Isaiah. They point to the verse (To whom then will ye liken God? ....It is he that sitteth upon the circle (chuwg) of the earth) which they think shows that the Bible writers knew the earth was a sphere.

They believe that the word "circle" could actually mean "sphere," since both are round, but they ignore Isaiah's use of a different word in another verse where he speaks of a "ball." (He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a BALL (duwr) into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. (Isaiah 22:18) )

Ball is closer to a sphere then a circle will ever be. If the Bible writer had meant for us to believe that "circle of the earth" meant that the earth was round, the writer would have used the Hebrew word for "ball," which is duwr. The fact that Isaiah didn't use duwr shows that he wasn't trying to tell us the earth was like a ball.

 

[Jet Black]

I think, they(YEC) refute evolution,then sometimes evolutionists refute YEC refutations, then YEC sometimes refute the evolutionists (and then it either repeats, or they forget about the topic). Or atleast that is how I infer what is going on, but I am sure other people will infer else wise too.

The YECs might attempt to refute evolution, but can you give me an example where they actually managed it. I am not talking about a particular lineage here, I am talking about evolution as a whole. As I said to you earlier, please rather than taking the arguments on equal footing, go and find the info out for yourself. YECism has been falsified as a whole. Its fundamental tenets are contradictory to the evidence.

 

[Freodin]

"Yes, but why exactly, would God, in all his wisdom, add evidence of age?"

Evolutionists are the ones that infer the world is old. Not YECists.
But to awnser your question, I would not be to sure of why he would do that, but I am sure you can ask God why.

You use the word "infer" as if it meant salvation for you.

No, "Evolutionists" observe that the world is old. Now it is up to you to explain why and where these observations are incorrect.

 

[awstar]

Lonnie,

If a theory is falsified, it doesn't mean it is less significant, it means it is wrong. Finito, over, end, done. Evolution has not been falsified, but YEC has.

The word "falsified" intrigues me. Are you saying that the YEC theory is:


1. Stated untruthfully; misrepresented.

2. a. Made false by altering or adding to:
(falsified testimony. )

b. To counterfeit; forged:
(falsify a visa.)

or,

3. Declared or proven to be false.

 

[Jet Black]

well "3", but then there is no real need to go running to dictionary.com as if it is the arbiter of truth.

 

[Data]

Evolutionists are the ones that infer the world is old. Not YECist.

Geologists and physicists. Not evolutionists.

 

[Ryal Kane]

well "3", but then there is no real need to go running to dictionary.com as if it is the arbiter of truth.

ar·bi·ter P Pronunciation Key (ärb-tr)
n.
One chosen or appointed to judge or decide a disputed issue; an arbitrator.
One who has the power to judge or ordain at will: an arbiter of fashion. See Synonyms at judge.

Ryal Kane.

 

[Jet Black]

ar·bi·ter P Pronunciation Key (ärb-tr)
n.
One chosen or appointed to judge or decide a disputed issue; an arbitrator.
One who has the power to judge or ordain at will: an arbiter of fashion. See Synonyms at judge.

Ryal Kane.

slap Pronunciation Key (sl

p)
n.

1. 1. A sharp blow made with the open hand or with a flat object; a smack.
   2. The sound of such a blow.
2. A sharp insult: a slap to one's pride.

for the

wise guy
n. Slang A smart aleck.

 

[awstar]

well "3", but then there is no real need to go running to dictionary.com as if it is the arbiter of truth.

Aha! but which part of 3? Have you: a. simply declared YEC to be false,

or,

b. have you proven YEC to be false.

If b. prove it.

 

[Freodin]

Aha! but which part of 3? Have you: a. simply declared YEC to be false,

or,

b. have you proven YEC to be false.

If b. prove it.

Take a quick scan over this forum for several threads by Mechanical Bliss about falsifications of the YEC position.

They all come down to one common denotator: if YEC is true, certain features could not exist. These features do exist, thus YEC is false.

Go and read for yourself. Don´t try to use the common Creationists diversion tactic: "If it isn´t discussed here, it isn´t discussed anywhere."

 

[Jet Black]

b. have you proven YEC to be false.

If b. prove it.

well given that true statements cannot have false consequences, one of the statements of YEC is that the universe is less than 6000 years old. Another statement of YEC (and christianity in general) is that God does not decieve. We can see stars that are further away than 6000 light years, and if God does not decieve, then those stars are further away than that and therefore YEC is false. that is just one point, there are lots more.