Creationists critiquing creationism

Resha Caner

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So, just because I'm a creationist, doesn't mean I think every youtube video that pastes on the label "creationist" is correct. So, I'm curious. Are there other creationists out there who think the creationist community, in general, is seriously lacking in critical thinking about the messages they deliver?
 

Brian Mcnamee

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HI the facts speak for themselves and the facts are the same for both sides so it boils down to how do you interpret the facts. Your Bible world view is based on its history being correct and Jesus being God. If the evidence does not show that history true then we have a crisis of faith. The geological column is a great place to start and great canyons as well as what caused them and is it billions of years or great catastrophe? This study is awesome and shows that the fossil beds were laid down at the same time with huge trees fossilized going straight through the geological column in what should be millions of years of time. Then the layers of fossils are not what they show in text books as animal A is supposed to evolve from B which came from C and they find animal C at the bottom of the pile or the sequence they propose is not there. I agree that not all have the same message and wonder what areas where you think they lack critical thinking? If critical thinking contradicts the scripture I'm sticking with scripture as Jesus affirmed Jonah, the flood, Sodom and 6 days of creation as history.
 
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Steve Petersen

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So, just because I'm a creationist, doesn't mean I think every youtube video that pastes on the label "creationist" is correct. So, I'm curious. Are there other creationists out there who think the creationist community, in general, is seriously lacking in critical thinking about the messages they deliver?

There are old-earth creationists. One fairly well known fellow is Hugh Ross.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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So, just because I'm a creationist, doesn't mean I think every youtube video that pastes on the label "creationist" is correct. So, I'm curious. Are there other creationists out there who think the creationist community, in general, is seriously lacking in critical thinking about the messages they deliver?

Yep. Many people, including some creationists, are lacking in critical thinking skills. But, there's likely a variety of reasons that people eschew learning and applying critical thinking skills, and I don't just chalk it all up to the influence of creationist priorities or to fundamentalist proclivities within various strands of Christianity. Rather, it's a confluence of social and psychological factors that make people not "want to think hard." :rolleyes:
 
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FireDragon76

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Sure. I call myself a timeless creationist as I am neither YEC nor OEC, yet a creationist still.

It would be difficult to be a Christian and not be a "creationist" to some degree.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Sure. I call myself a timeless creationist as I am neither YEC nor OEC, yet a creationist still.

...and even people at BioLogos, in their various Theistic Evolutionary perspectives, refer to themselves as "creationists." So, the term seems to be all over-the-board in meaning these days. ;)
 
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Resha Caner

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Yep. Many people, including some creationists, are lacking in critical thinking skills. But, there's likely a variety of reasons that people eschew learning and applying critical thinking skills, and I don't just chalk it all up to the influence of creationist priorities or to fundamentalist proclivities within various strands of Christianity. Rather, it's a confluence of social and psychological factors that make people not "want to think hard." :rolleyes:

True. I need to be careful.
 
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Resha Caner

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It would be difficult to be a Christian and not be a "creationist" to some degree.

Sure.

...and even people at BioLogos, in their various Theistic Evolutionary perspectives, refer to themselves as "creationists." So, the term seems to be all over-the-board in meaning these days.

True. For my part it means a belief that Genesis describes actual events, and that said description does not align with UCA claims.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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True. For my part it means a belief that Genesis describes actual events, and that said description does not align with UCA claims.
I could contest that ... but then we'll get bogged down in what the term "actual" ... actually means, and I'm not sure how much critical thinking will enable either of us to "actually" grapple with the complexity of the overall issues involved with handling our various perceptions about creationism and as to what it may "actually" be. :sorry: ^_^
 
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Resha Caner

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I could contest that ... but then we'll get bogged down in what the term "actual" ... actually means, and I'm not sure how much critical thinking will enable either of us to "actually" grapple with the complexity of the overall issues involved with handling our various perceptions about creationism and as to what it may "actually" be. :sorry: ^_^

Yeah, I know. But what I like about our conversations is that, even though we disagree, they are always civil. I credit you for that. I know I can be prickly.

Since I'm a historian and know what evidence historians are expecting in order to call something "historical", I'll not make a full claim in that direction. I readily admit that on the spectrum of mythic - legendary - historical, many historians think of Biblical characters as legendary. What many misunderstand about such a position is that historians are not claiming Biblical characters didn't exist - just that for many of them evidence is limited to the Bible.

... Anyway, for my part, I think of Adam & Eve, Eden, etc. as real - as (colloquially) "historical".
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Yeah, I know. But what I like about our conversations is that, even though we disagree, they are always civil. I credit you for that. I know I can be prickly.

Since I'm a historian and know what evidence historians are expecting in order to call something "historical", I'll not make a full claim in that direction. I readily admit that on the spectrum of mythic - legendary - historical, many historians think of Biblical characters as legendary. What many misunderstand about such a position is that historians are not claiming Biblical characters didn't exist - just that for many of them evidence is limited to the Bible.

... Anyway, for my part, I think of Adam & Eve, Eden, etc. as real - as (colloquially) "historical".

I'm going to try to keep within the lines you've set with your OP. So, rather than turning this into a discussion about who is right and whether Adam and Eve were real people (or not), I think it would be more interesting to look at the extent that either one of us, or others like us, are using "critical thinking" in our efforts to delineate the "actuality" of our respective views on the essence of Creationism.

As you know, I'm not a formal historian but rather a philosopher who delves into this, that and the other (but part of my studies have involved the Philosophy of History along with Hermeneutics and Epistemology), and I'm sure I'll have a [slightly?] different perspective on the intersection of critical thinking and creationism and how our respective approaches to CT may shape our affirmations about biblical creationism.

I guess for me the crux of your OP comes down to our estimation on what makes for a robust account about the nature of human critical thinking and as to what it might do for us in discerning where and how God plays a role in biblical creation. :cool:
 
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Resha Caner

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I'm going to try to keep within the lines you've set with our OP. So, rather than turning this into a discussion about who is right and whether Adam and Eve were real people (or not), I think it would be more interesting to look at the extent that either one of us, or others like us, are using "critical thinking" in our efforts to delineate the "actuality" of our respective views on the essence of Creationism.

Sure. Adam & Eve could be a case study regarding how people think critically about a specific issue. but I don't have a set direction in mind, so I'm willing to wander in other directions.

I'll throw out 2 factors that are important to me. First is an admission of trust. Wrapped up in that is an admission that we are finite and can't know everything, and at some level we all must trust something. So, do we know what it is we're trusting? Do we know our own weaknesses?

Second is an ability to grasp different perspectives. For a time I was poor at it, but in general I think understanding the perspective of others is something that grows with experience and maturity. I've been in conversations with evolutionists where my fellow creationists mistake me for an evolutionist, and sometimes the evolutionists themselves think they have "converted" me. I take that as a compliment - as an ability to immerse myself in that view and see it from the inside out.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Sure. Adam & Eve could be a case study regarding how people think critically about a specific issue. but I don't have a set direction in mind, so I'm willing to wander in other directions.
... apart from the ways in which we evaluate the person and historicity of Jesus, Himself, I'd be tempted to think that our parallel evaluation of the possible historicity of Adam and Eve would indeed be THE case study here. I know that for me, perhaps more than any other issue, I've always struggled, and still struggle to "accept" that these two ancient literary figures had any kind of actual historical existence. And of course, in an almost stereotypical form for our era, I'd make the claim that I have been using "critical thinking" all along, even if in increasing levels, to wrestle with how the Eden account, or the first 11 chapters of Genesis play into the intersection between our concept of Creation and the actual, possibly evolutionary, past.

I'll throw out 2 factors that are important to me. First is an admission of trust. Wrapped up in that is an admission that we are finite and can't know everything, and at some level we all must trust something. So, do we know what it is we're trusting? Do we know our own weaknesses?
I'll admit at the outset here that trust as an operative part of my method of evaluation has been only tenuously attached to any particular individual academics or other leaders. For instance, for some, their pastor is the sole source of information by which to evaluate the Bible and one's perception of "Creation."

Second is an ability to grasp different perspectives. For a time I was poor at it, but in general I think understanding the perspective of others is something that grows with experience and maturity. I've been in conversations with evolutionists where my fellow creationists mistake me for an evolutionist, and sometimes the evolutionists themselves think they have "converted" me. I take that as a compliment - as an ability to immerse myself in that view and see it from the inside out.
I'm kind of like you in this respect, BUT for me, it's always been a matter of "realization" over trust; I don't trust human authority all that far although I do respect the power of human intelligence and the ability to "realize" that some things in the world exist and that we have to grapple with making heads or tails out of the things we find. Realization, along with questioning, have been high up on my conceptual totem-pole. Trust in specific persons, not so high.

In sum, I'd say that I've tended to take a more expansive heuristic in exploring and comparing options between various scholars while trying to critically think through the issues and while attempting to make my mind up. So, I'll admit that when it comes to how I think of 'creationism' in context with the Bible rather than some other religious work, I've always had a more or less BioLogos type disposition toward approaching the assortment of issues embedded in this area of inquiry.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Second is an ability to grasp different perspectives. For a time I was poor at it, but in general I think understanding the perspective of others is something that grows with experience and maturity. I've been in conversations with evolutionists where my fellow creationists mistake me for an evolutionist, and sometimes the evolutionists themselves think they have "converted" me. I take that as a compliment - as an ability to immerse myself in that view and see it from the inside out.

Yes, I'd think you definitely have that ability, more so than many. And even though I know you and I have some (minor?) differences in how we view God's handiwork in connection with the Genesis account, I wouldn't say that you're any less of a critical thinker than I am. Just different. And I respect that. :cool:
 
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Resha Caner

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I know that for me, perhaps more than any other issue, I've always struggled, and still struggle to "accept" that these two ancient literary figures had any kind of actual historical existence.

I understand the struggle, and it's an interesting tension. If God were just an inept con man from Kansas using cheap tricks from behind a curtain, we'd never believe he was God because gods are bigger than that. Yet if God is amazing and beyond our experience and understanding, we'd never believe he was God because that stuff doesn't happen. etc. etc.

So, a third element is our experience. How do we grapple with something that is beyond our experience? As it happens, I've developed a respect for Ryan Reeves, and was watching a video of his on Lewis & Tolkien. In his interpretation, their answer to that problem is that we vicariously experiment with things beyond our experience through the medium of story, and that is why myth (in the literary sense, not the "it's fake" sense) is important.
 
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I understand the struggle, and it's an interesting tension. If God were just an inept con man from Kansas using cheap tricks from behind a curtain, we'd never believe he was God because gods are bigger than that. Yet if God is amazing and beyond our experience and understanding, we'd never believe he was God because that stuff doesn't happen. etc. etc.
... yes, I think you've got it right on that!

So, a third element is our experience. How do we grapple with something that is beyond our experience? As it happens, I've developed a respect for Ryan Reeves, and was watching a video of his on Lewis & Tolkien. In his interpretation, their answer to that problem is that we vicariously experiment with things beyond our experience through the medium of story, and that is why myth (in the literary sense, not the "it's fake" sense) is important.
That's an interesting point. I guess we do a lot "vicariously" with this line of cognitive mythical experimentation. I'll have to check out what Ryan Reeves says since yours is the first reference I've seen for him. He sounds interesting, particularly if he's relating what he says through Lewis & Tolkien.
 
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