Creationism in public schools? (2)

[chingchang]

This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here: "Creationism in public schools?"

 

[laconicstudent]

Lets inaugurate page 2 of this thread with the Symphony of Science.

YouTube - Symphony of Science - 'The Unbroken Thread' (ft. Attenborough, Goodall, Sagan)

 

[createdtoworship]

how about another one instead of genetic information discussions how about that the dating methods in evolution are not accurate enough for public school.

 

[OllieFranz]

Hypothetically anything can happen. But Mutations by the very definition "Mutant" are bad things. Thats how it got it's name, you know!

From the Mirriam-Webster online dictionary

mu·tat·ed mu·tat·ing
Definition of MUTATE

intransitive verb
: to undergo mutation

transitive verb
: to cause to undergo mutation

— mu·ta·tive \ˈmyü-ˌtā-tiv, -tə-tiv\ adjective
.learners-link div.learners-link-content { font-family: Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; padding: 0pt 5px 0pt 22px; }.learners-link div.learners-link-content a .word { text-decoration: none; }.learners-link div.learners-link-content a:hover .word { color: rgb(83, 88, 169); text-decoration: underline; }#content .definition div.d .learners-link a, #content .definition div.d .learners-link a:hover, #content .definition div.d .learners-link a:link, #content .definition div.d .learners-link a:visited { color: black; font-family: Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-variant: normal; font-size: 13px; text-decoration: none; } See mutate defined for English-language learners »

.example-sentences ol.collapsed-list li.hidden { display: none; }li.more-sent-link { background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% transparent; }#content .definition div.d li.more-sent-link a.more-link, #content .definition div.d li.more-sent-link a.hide-link { color: rgb(113, 114, 116); font-family: verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; }#content .definition div.d li.more-sent-link a.more-link:hover .text, #content .definition div.d li.more-sent-link a.hide-link:hover .text { text-decoration: underline; }.example-sentences ol.expanded-list a.more-link, .example-sentences ol.collapsed-list a.hide-link { display: none; }#content .definition div.d li.more-sent-link span.icon { padding-right: 2px; }Examples of MUTATE

1. a disease that mutates genes in humans
2. a group of mutated genes
3. Over time, her feelings mutated from hatred into love.
4. opera singers mutating into pop stars

Origin of MUTATE

Latin mutatus, past participle of mutareFirst Known Use: 1818


Related to MUTATE

Synonyms: fluctuate, change, shift, snap, vary
Antonyms: plateau, stabilize

mu·tant

adj \ˈmyü-tənt\
Definition of MUTANT

: of, relating to, or produced by mutation

— mutant noun
Origin of MUTANT

Latin mutant-, mutans, present participle of mutareFirst Known Use: 1903


​

So the words mutate and mutant come from the Latin root "mutans," which means "change." Any change -- any change at all good, bad, or indifferent -- in the genetic code (other than halving the chromosomes during meiosis, and he recombining of them during fertilization -- which is not only unavoidable in sexual reproduction, but the very definition of it) is a mutation, not just the ones with a deleterious effect. Even a genetic change that has absolutely no effect is a mutation. There are far, far more of these than there are mutations that have visible effects, good, bad, and neutral, combined, mainly because the sections of a chromosome that contain a lot of "junk genes" (genes that appear not to code for anything) are also the weakest, and the most susceptible to the kinds of things that knock out, insert, or re-arrange short sequences of nucleotides, often dangling off the end of the end of the chromosome.

 

[createdtoworship]

From the Mirriam-Webster online dictionary

mu·tat·ed mu·tat·ing
Definition of MUTATE

intransitive verb
: to undergo mutation

transitive verb
: to cause to undergo mutation

— mu·ta·tive \ˈmyü-ˌtā-tiv, -tə-tiv\ adjective
.learners-link div.learners-link-content { font-family: Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; padding: 0pt 5px 0pt 22px; }.learners-link div.learners-link-content a .word { text-decoration: none; }.learners-link div.learners-link-content a:hover .word { color: rgb(83, 88, 169); text-decoration: underline; }#content .definition div.d .learners-link a, #content .definition div.d .learners-link a:hover, #content .definition div.d .learners-link a:link, #content .definition div.d .learners-link a:visited { color: black; font-family: Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-variant: normal; font-size: 13px; text-decoration: none; } See mutate defined for English-language learners »

.example-sentences ol.collapsed-list li.hidden { display: none; }li.more-sent-link { background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% transparent; }#content .definition div.d li.more-sent-link a.more-link, #content .definition div.d li.more-sent-link a.hide-link { color: rgb(113, 114, 116); font-family: verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; }#content .definition div.d li.more-sent-link a.more-link:hover .text, #content .definition div.d li.more-sent-link a.hide-link:hover .text { text-decoration: underline; }.example-sentences ol.expanded-list a.more-link, .example-sentences ol.collapsed-list a.hide-link { display: none; }#content .definition div.d li.more-sent-link span.icon { padding-right: 2px; }Examples of MUTATE

1. a disease that mutates genes in humans
2. a group of mutated genes
3. Over time, her feelings mutated from hatred into love.
4. opera singers mutating into pop stars

Origin of MUTATE

Latin mutatus, past participle of mutareFirst Known Use: 1818


Related to MUTATE

Synonyms: fluctuate, change, shift, snap, vary
Antonyms: plateau, stabilize

mu·tant

adj \ˈmyü-tənt\
Definition of MUTANT

: of, relating to, or produced by mutation

— mutant noun
Origin of MUTANT

Latin mutant-, mutans, present participle of mutareFirst Known Use: 1903


​

So the words mutate and mutant come from the Latin root "mutans," which means "change." Any change -- any change at all good, bad, or indifferent -- in the genetic code (other than halving the chromosomes during meiosis, and he recombining of them during fertilization -- which is not only unavoidable in sexual reproduction, but the very definition of it) is a mutation, not just the ones with a deleterious effect. Even a genetic change that has absolutely no effect is a mutation. There are far, far more of these than there are mutations that have visible effects, good, bad, and neutral, combined, mainly because the sections of a chromosome that contain a lot of "junk genes" (genes that appear not to code for anything) are also the weakest, and the most susceptible to the kinds of things that knock out, insert, or re-arrange short sequences of nucleotides, often dangling off the end of the end of the chromosome.

radiation causes mutations too but they are not beneficial.

 

[laconicstudent]

radiation causes mutations too but they are not beneficial.

Prove it.

 

[createdtoworship]

Prove it.

mutation = mutilation

 

[laconicstudent]

mutation = mutilation

No, it doesn't. A mutation is a substitution, insertion or deletion of nucleotides from a chromosome. A mutilation is the physical damage of flesh. That is a patently absurd comment. I might as well say that baking a cake is shattering.

 

[createdtoworship]

I might as well say that baking a cake is shattering.

or you can say mutation = medication

either one

 

[laconicstudent]

or you can say mutation = medication

either one

I wouldn't say either, because neither make the slightest sense.

 

[createdtoworship]

I wouldn't say either, because neither make the slightest sense.

so you honestly think that the dating methods of evolution are correct? I mean you would have to believe the earth is billions of years old correct?

 

[laconicstudent]

so you honestly think that the dating methods of evolution are correct? I mean you would have to believe the earth is billions of years old correct?

Obviously. The vast majority of posters do.

 

[OllieFranz]

so you honestly think that the dating methods of evolution are correct? I mean you would have to believe the earth is billions of years old correct?

Yup. About 4.5 billion years. Except that evolution is a biological process, and has nothing to do with measuring the age of the Earth. For that, you need tools of the science of Newtonian mechanics. Don't the anti-"Darwinism" people (really, the anti-science) Christians like to claim Newton?

 

[createdtoworship]

Obviously. The vast majority of posters do.

speaking of dating methods, the most commonly used dating method for billions of years of creation is isotope dating.


The isotope concentrations can be measured very accurately, but isotope concentrations are not dates. To derive ages from such measurements, unprovable assumptions have to be made such as:



1- The starting conditions are known (for example, that there was no daughter isotope present at the start, or that we know how much was there).


2- Decay rates have always been constant.


3-Systems were closed or isolated so that no parent or daughter isotopes were lost or added.

(gotta be offline for awhile)

 

[metherion]

1) your last post in the other thread lead to a page not found error.

2) AIG is not an accurate science resource. I would not admit anything from them as a valid addition to real scientific discussion.

3) So your ideas against isotope dating are:
"An entire field has no clue how to do their jobs" or "The universe radically changed", with no evidence of either? Really?

4) You STILL have provided no actual scientific evidence FOR anything, merely misguided attempts AGAINST things. No matter how much real evidence you provide AGAINST evolution (you've provided none), it is still not evidence FOR creationism.

5) You haven't demonstrated a clear idea of what evolution IS, by lumping in nuclear physics and geochronology with it.

Metherion

 

[createdtoworship]

4) You STILL have provided no actual scientific evidence FOR anything, merely misguided attempts AGAINST things. No matter how much real evidence you provide AGAINST evolution (you've provided none), it is still not evidence FOR creationism.
Metherion

Recent studies of Mt. St. Helens rock known to have come from the 1980 eruption (Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal, (http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c007.html?zoom_highlight=dating+methods)yielded erroneous dates in the millions of years. Similar studies at the Grand Canyon found volcanic rocks dated at the top of the canyon older than those found in the bottom. Something's wrong here.

Assumptions of Radiometric Dating

 

[metherion]

So have you done ANY research as to how your 'problematic assumptions' are accounted for by actual scientists with actual degrees and years and years of work under their belts, or do you just want to say "THERE ARE PROBLEMS" over and over until someone believes you?

Metherion

 

[createdtoworship]

So have you done ANY research as to how your 'problematic assumptions' are accounted for by actual scientists with actual degrees and years and years of work under their belts, or do you just want to say "THERE ARE PROBLEMS" over and over until someone believes you?

Metherion

until someone addresses the problems there will be even more problems. You see? lol

radio isotopes and the age of the earth workshop (45 min) start about 10 minutes into...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGFZsdEVBEw&feature=player_detailpage

 

[metherion]

No, I don't see. The problems have been addressed by those who actually work in the field. And it's intellectually dishonest to just say OH THERE ARE POTENTIAL PROBLEMS!

Do you know how the current 'problems' are solved? Did you even know that they are taken into account? Do you know what the methods are? If you don't/cant, how do you even know that they're still flawed?

Your statement is however, very true. Until someone addresses the problems with rampant, dishonest rhetoric to get religion into the classrooms, there will be even more problems.

Metherion

 

[laconicstudent]

until someone addresses the problems there will be even more problems. You see? lol

There is no problem, except with the rising rate of scientific illiteracy.