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Creationism = Flat Earth Believers

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by Zadok, Jun 29, 2002.

  1. Zadok

    Zadok The Fossil Hound

    199
    +2
    Every Flat Earth Verse in the King James 1611 Bible- (well, as many as I could stomach)

     

    "The heavens revolve daily, and, immense as is their fabric, and inconceivable the rapidity
    of their revolutions, we experience no concussion -- no disturbance in the harmony of their motion.
    The sun, though varying its course every diurnal revolution, returns annually to the same point. The planets,
    in all their wandering, maintain their respective positions. How could the earth hang suspended in the air
    were it not upheld by God's hand? (Job 26:7) By what means could it [the earth] maintain itself unmoved, while
    the heavens above are in constant rapid motion, did not its Divine Maker fix and establish it? Accordingly
    the particle, ape, denoting emphasis, is introduced -- YEA, he hath established it."

    - John Calvin, Commentary on the Book of Psalms, Psalm 93, verse 1, trans., James Anderson (Eerdman's, 1949), Vol. 4, p. 7

     


    Ps 19:6
    His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it:
    and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

    Psalm 24:1,2
    1The earth is the lord's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therin.
    2For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.

    Psalm 75:3
    The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it.

    Psalm 93:1
    The lord reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the lord is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath
    girded himself: the world also is stablished, that is cannot be moved.

    Psalm 104:5
    He established the earth upon its foundations, so that it will not totter, forever and ever.

    Psalm 115:16
    The heaven, even the heavens are the lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

    Psalm 136:6
    To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.

    Psalm 148:4
    Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

    Psalm 149:1,3-4
    1Praise ye the lord. Praise ye the lord from the heavens: praise him in the heights.
    3Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.
    4Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

    1 Chronicles 16:30
    Fear before him, and all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

    I Samuel 2:8
    He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among the
    princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the lord's, and he
    hath set the world upon them.

    1 Samuel 2:10
    The adversaries of the lord shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them:
    the lord shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt
    the horn of his anointed.

    2 Samuel 22:8
    Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth.

    2Kings 2:11
    And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire,
    and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind inot heaven.

    2Kings 20:8-10
    8And Hezekiah said unto Isaiah, What [shall be] the sign that the LORD will heal me, and that I shall go
    up into the house of the LORD the third day?
    9And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that he hath spoken:
    shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?
    10And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow
    return backward ten degrees.
    11And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it
    had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.

    Isaiah 11:12
    And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel,
    and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

    Isaiah 40:21-22
    21Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood
    from the foundations of the earth?
    22It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;
    that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

    Isaiah 13:10
    For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened
    in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

    Isaiah 13:13
    Therefor I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the lord of
    hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

    Isaiah 34:4
    And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their
    host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

    Daniel 8:10
    And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground,
    and stamped upon them.

    Joshua 10:12-13
    12Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel,
    and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
    13And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies.
    Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down
    about a whole day.

    Genesis 7:19
    And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were
    under the whole heaven, were covered.

    Genesis 1:14,15
    14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night;
    and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
    15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

    Genesis 1:20
    And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl
    that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

    Genesis 11:4,5
    4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us
    make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
    5And the lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

    Genesis 28:12
    And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold
    the angels of god ascending and descending on it.

    Deuteronomy 13:7
    Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee,
    from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth.

    Deuteronomy 4:19
    And lest tou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even
    all the hosts of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the lord the god hath
    divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

    Deuteronomy 4:32
    For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth,
    and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing
    is, or hath been heard like it?

    Job 9:6
    Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.

    Job 11:8
    It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?

    Job 22:12
    Is not god in height of heaven? And behold the height of the stars, how high they are!

    Job 26:11
    The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.

    Job 26:7
    He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

    Job 28:24 
    24 For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven.

    Job 38: 13,14
    13That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
    14It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

    Deuteronomy 28:64
    And the lord shall scatter thee among all people, from one end of the earth even unto the other;
    and thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

    Jeremiah 10:12,13
    12He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched
    out the heavens by his discretion.
    13When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours
    to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out
    of his treasures.

    Jeremiah 33:22
    As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply
    the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

    Jeremiah 49:36
    And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them
    toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.

    Exodus 19:20
    And the lord cam down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the lord called Moses up to the top
    of the mount: and Moses went up.

    Exodus 20:4
    Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above,
    or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

    Ecclesiastes 5:2
    Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before god: for god is in
    heaven, and thou upon the earth: therefore let thy words be few.

    2Peter 3:5
    For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of god the heavens were of old, and the earth
    standing out of the water and in the water.

    Hebrews 1:10
    Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth.

    Matthew 2:9
    When they had heard the king, they departed; and lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them,
    till it came and stood over where the young child was.

    Matthew 24:31
    And he shall send his angels with a great sound of trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from
    the four winds, from one end of heaven unto the other.

    Matthew 24:29
    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her
    light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    Matthew 26:64
    Jesus saith unto him, Thous hast said: nevertheless I say unto you. Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man
    sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    Matthew 4:8
    Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms
    of the world, and the glory of them;

    Mark 13:25
    And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

    Luke 4:5
    And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a
    moment of time.

    2Corinthians 12:2
    I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body,
    I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

    1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17
    16For the lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump
    of god: and the dead in christ shall rise first:
    17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together  with them in the clouds, to meet the lord in
    the air: and so shall we ever be with the lord.

    Revelation 4:1
    After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were
    of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must ber hereafter.

    Revelations 6:14
    And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved
    out of their places.

    Revelation 6:13
    And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is
    shaken of a mighty wind.

    Revelation 7:1
    And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four
    winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

    Revelation 8:10
    And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it
    fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

    Revelation 9:1
    And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the
    key of the bottomless pit.
     
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  2. unworthyone

    unworthyone Yes this is me! Like my glasses?

    +1
    Evolutionists = Banana Split Ancestry Believers

    There I've made my point!

    Thank you. Thank you very much.

     

    HUH? What is all that?

     

    Why don't you just say all creationists are morons. That would be cool.
     
  3. npetreley

    npetreley pumpkin sailor

    +2
    Your way is actually much more intelligent. It saves a lot of work and provides just as much evidence.
     
  4. Zadok

    Zadok The Fossil Hound

    199
    +2
    Your own bibles blatently state that the earth is flat.

    And you still mock the sciences. Typical.

    Fundamentalism just dosn't work.
     
  5. psycmajor

    psycmajor self-Banned

    +9
    I'm sorry, but it looks like your scriptures are not relevant.

    And you forgot this one:

    Isaiah 40:18-26
    18 To whom then will you liken God? Or what likeness will you compare to Him? 19 The workman molds an image, The goldsmith overspreads it with gold, And the silversmith casts silver chains. 20 Whoever is too impoverished for such a contribution Chooses a tree that will not rot; He seeks for himself a skillful workman To prepare a carved image that will not totter. 21 Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth? 22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

    By the way, did you make that list yourself, or did you copy and paste it from somewhere, implying that it is your own?
     
  6. Jerry Smith

    Jerry Smith Fish out of water

    +9
    I can't speak for zadok, but I imagine his point is that if the creationist position that all scripture must be interpreted literally unless the language is "obviously figurative" (or some such), then the creationist should also argue for a flat earth based on these passages.

    That would apply also for your passage as well: every one knows that a circle is a 2-dimensional (flat) figure...

    I noticed a typo here & there in zadock's post, so I am not given to believe that he copied and pasted it.
     
  7. psycmajor

    psycmajor self-Banned

    +9
    Perhaps you're not familiar with Hebrew? I have a limited knowledge of it, but to my understanding, there is no equivilant for "sphere." I suppose "circle" was the closest thing to "sphere."

    So there.
     
  8. Jerry Smith

    Jerry Smith Fish out of water

    +9
    Strongs, as found at: http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/strongs/1025422852.html

    Perhaps if the ancient Hebrews had no word for sphere it was because they were not acquainted with the concept?

     

    edited to add:

    so there :)
     
  9. psycmajor

    psycmajor self-Banned

    +9
    Uh, could you explain what that box means? While I have heard of it, I am not familiar with Strong's. Do you know? How did you come to the conclusion that they weren't familiar with the concept?

    Also, what is your evidence that ALL Christians are "flat-earth believers"? Sounds like an overgeneralization to me, not to mention completely inaccurate. And how is the first post "proof" of this overgeneralization? They have been completely taken out of context, and are not even relevant. Can you defend them (all of them, not a couple)?

    How do you like them apples.
     
  10. Jerry Smith

    Jerry Smith Fish out of water

    +9
     
  11. psycmajor

    psycmajor self-Banned

    +9
    Are you a scholar? I'm not. I don't think you are. Does that make you infallibly correct?

    [Why do I get the feeling I'm beating a dead horse?]

    See my above edited post, as well, and respond.
     
  12. psycmajor

    psycmajor self-Banned

    +9
    I never said that it was a mistranslation.

    Can you clearly "prove" the Bible says the Earth is flat? Without taking it out of context or misinterpreting it?
     
  13. Jerry Smith

    Jerry Smith Fish out of water

    +9
    psych,

    I am not a scholar. I try to stay reasonably well informed. I am certainly not infallible.

    A few points in response to your edited post:
    I have not claimed that all CHRISTIANS are flat-earthers. I pointed out that I believed Zadok's point was that the same reasoning that leads to CREATIONISM also must lead to the flat-earth position.

    Obviously, not all creationists are flat-earthers, only a small minority of them. I think that Zadok's point is that more should be by applying the same reasoning to the passages he cited as they apply to the Genesis account of creation and the Flood.

    Again, there is no overgeneralization. I will leave it to Zadok to defend his position. I am only trying to point out what I believe his position to be. If it is what I think it is, then I have to agree with it strongly.

    No, I can't defend all of them. Let me just pick one, and see if it supports my own position (that it is reasonable to draw as infallible fact conclusions that contradict such things as the known geometry of the earth, the distance and size of the stars, the heliocentric solar system, etc. - from Bible passages, as it is to draw strict YEC creationism from Genesis).

    In order for all of the kingdoms of the world to be visible from a high mountain, the earth must be flat. If the devil only showed a "vision" of all the kingdoms, what was the point in taking Jesus up an "exceeding high" mountain?
     
  14. Jerry Smith

    Jerry Smith Fish out of water

    +9
    Sorry, I missed this post, while I was replying to the other.

    That does seem to be what it all comes down to. What is misinterpretation? How do you know that the flat-earth interpretation is the wrong one?

    Creationists argue that evolution is non-Biblical because it contradicts their interpretation of the meaning of Genesis (and some other passages). Their position depends on their interpretation. They cannot "prove" that evolution is non-Biblical, because they cannot "prove" that their interpretation of Genesis is correct.

    Likewise, no-one can prove that spherical earthism (or heliocentrism, etc..) are non-Biblical, because the "proof" relies on a specific interpretation of the Biblical passages above... If we are to be flexible enough to interpret those passages in light of scientific knowledge, why are we not also flexible enough to interpret the Genesis account in light of scientific knowledge as well?
     
  15. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

    +1,462
    Seeker
    Married
    US-Republican
    It is pretty obvious that the Bible, taken literally, indicates that the earth is a flat thing which does not move, and which is supported "on" the waters.

    This was a pretty common belief at the time when people wrote these things down, so it's not surprising at all.

    The only honest answers are to admit that the Bible sometimes reflects the "science" of the people who wrote it down, or to maintain that the earth is a thing fixed in place, the surface of which is flat.
     
  16. Zadok

    Zadok The Fossil Hound

    199
    +2
    Sorry, I didn't get a chance to reply sooner. My forum thingy won't let me post quotes and stuff now. I wonder why? What could I have disabled.

    "I have not claimed that all CHRISTIANS are flat-earthers. I pointed out that I believed Zadok's point was that the same reasoning that leads to CREATIONISM also must lead to the flat-earth position."

    Thats exactly what I am implying.

    "And you forgot this one:

    Isaiah 40:18-26
    18 To whom then will you liken God? Or what likeness will you compare to Him? 19 The workman molds an image, The goldsmith overspreads it with gold, And the silversmith casts silver chains. 20 Whoever is too impoverished for such a contribution Chooses a tree that will not rot; He seeks for himself a skillful workman To prepare a carved image that will not totter. 21 Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth? 22 <B>It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,</B> And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."

    No, I didn't forget that verse, its always been up there. That just shows that god is really high in heaven looking down on the earth, he sees the people as small and far away like grasshoppers.


    "Can you clearly "prove" the Bible says the Earth is flat? Without taking it out of context or misinterpreting it?"

    Yes, this is reflected in the extra biblical writtings and texts of the time it was being compiled and now (can we say, APOCRYPHA?). Also a little common sense dosn't hurt.

    "I noticed a typo here &amp; there in zadock's post, so I am not given to believe that he copied and pasted it."

    No I didn't cut and paste it. I was bored saturday morning and went chapter per chapter based on my bible knowledge and picked what I thought represented the beliefs at the time. I think I picked some good verses. I hope to compile more through time. Where was my typo?

    "Likewise, no-one can prove that spherical earthism (or heliocentrism, etc..) are non-Biblical, because the "proof" relies on a&nbsp;specific interpretation of the Biblical passages above... If we are to be flexible enough to interpret those passages in light of scientific knowledge, why are we not also flexible enough to interpret the Genesis account in light of scientific knowledge as well?"

    Sorry, the evidence for the genesis account dosn't add up with conventional science. Also, you cannot invoke the supernatural in science.

    And if scientific knowledge shows a flat earth in the bible, what water does the genesis account hold? Why a litteral genesis when the rest of the bible preaches 'flat earth'? That seems conflicting to me.

    I think you need to look back at what was happening hundreds of years ago. When they proposed the heliocentric solar system, it was met with anger and threats. This is because the bible clearly and blatently states that the earth is flat, heaven is up, hell (sheol, the underworld or whatever word you wanna use) is below the earth.

    It is interesting to note that the babylonians use to make towers called 'ziggurats' that would ascend into the heavens to get the sky gods attention. This story is mimicked in the "tower of babel". This is just more evidence that some of the old testament stories were taken from the surrounding cultures and societies at the time. The biblical flood is just one such example.

    Just look at it this way, the higher you go, the closer you are to god. This is always and clearly reflected in the bible. God always 'came down' to earth to converse or destroy. Things always 'came down' out of heaven. People would always go 'up' to heaven (enoch, jesus, jacob's ladder, angles going back to god), and would usually do it from high mountain tops (mount olive, mount ararat, the mount where moses recieved the first of the commandments).

    All in all, the bible clearly and utterly states a flat earth, with the heavens above, with water above them and with god in heaven (zion) above all in his tent or tabernacle.

    &nbsp;
     
  17. Jerry Smith

    Jerry Smith Fish out of water

    +9
    That's probably your vB code. Check your profile &amp; options.

    I thought so.


    The one that stuck out was:


    going on...


    Zadok, you need not invoke the supernatural in science in order to interpret the Bible in light of scientific knowledge. Many do give a&nbsp;non-literal interpretation to Genesis because of the conflict between a literal account and the facts of&nbsp;astronomy, geology &amp; biology. Given that much of the&nbsp;Bible is interpreted non-literally in standard Christian exegesis,&nbsp;I don't think it is possible to criticize&nbsp;anyone for&nbsp;applying the same reasoning to Genesis.
     
  18. Zadok

    Zadok The Fossil Hound

    199
    +2
    "Zadok, you need not invoke the supernatural in science in order to interpret the Bible in light of scientific knowledge. Many do give a&nbsp;non-literal interpretation to Genesis because of the conflict between a literal account and the facts of&nbsp;astronomy, geology &amp; biology. Given that <I>much</I> of the&nbsp;Bible is interpreted non-literally in standard Christian exegesis,&nbsp;I don't think it is possible to criticize&nbsp;anyone for&nbsp;applying the same reasoning to Genesis."

    Yeah, I think I said something in a weird way somewhere along the lines. Let me clarify.

    Fundamentalist christians take the genesis account litteraly, but ignore the flat-earth references on a literal basis. Before the protestant reformation everyone took BOTH on a literal basis.

    Then they were utterly disproven. It now seems that most of christianity takes the genesis acount as either myth, allegory, or metaphor the same way the flat earth references are taken.

    Except for the fundamentalists/literalists/inerrentists, they still adhere to the same old doctrine that died in the past. The creation myth. But not the flat earth myth. Their is so much elementary proof against a flat earth that no one in their right mind would accept such silly things.

    Let me ask some fundamental christians something. How does the ascention of Jesus sound to you (remeber he physically went up off the ground and into the clouds, and promised to return from heaven the same way)? Is it Flat earth (geocentric) or spherical earth and a huge universe? Heaven was obviously 'up' to the writters of the bible, this is still demonstrated in our western cultural myths. How many times have you seen a cartoon character die some silly death only to turn into an angel and ascend (fly up) to heaven or the bad ones float down to hell.

    They took a flat earth litteraly in those days. And only the flat earth model makes sense of scripture. But, i'm sorry to say, heaven is not up and hell is not down, earth is not on pillars, their is no water under the world or surrounding it, and you cannot climb a mountain top to see all the kingdoms of the world.

    Why take genesis literally when the rest of the bible dosn't agree with modern astronomy? Why take one over the other?
     
  19. flyingpenguin

    flyingpenguin Christian Believer

    38
    +0
    I am no scholar, but I belive that the verses that you bring up (at least some of them) do not say that the earth was flat.

    When Satan took Jesus up to the "exceedingly high mountain" to show him the kingdoms of the world, it makes perfect sense that he would only need to show him the kingdoms that were in power at the time....the places in North America were not something that Satan would care about because they were simple tribes (if that) during this time.

    Heaven being up and hell being down is a state of being, not a specific location. There are three heavens. The sky, the stars, and the place where God lives. All of them would be at a higher state than man...hence they are up.

    Are you saying that since the earth is round, there is no concept of up? If heaven is another place not visible to us, it makes sense that it would be all around us, which would mean no matter where you are on the earth Heaven would be above you.

    David
     
  20. Jerry Smith

    Jerry Smith Fish out of water

    +9

    East Asia, on the other hand, had some pretty powerful kingdoms.
     
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