Creationism = Flat Earth Believers

Every Flat Earth Verse in the King James 1611 Bible- (well, as many as I could stomach)

 

"The heavens revolve daily, and, immense as is their fabric, and inconceivable the rapidity
of their revolutions, we experience no concussion -- no disturbance in the harmony of their motion.
The sun, though varying its course every diurnal revolution, returns annually to the same point. The planets,
in all their wandering, maintain their respective positions. How could the earth hang suspended in the air
were it not upheld by God's hand? (Job 26:7) By what means could it [the earth] maintain itself unmoved, while
the heavens above are in constant rapid motion, did not its Divine Maker fix and establish it? Accordingly
the particle, ape, denoting emphasis, is introduced -- YEA, he hath established it."

- John Calvin, Commentary on the Book of Psalms, Psalm 93, verse 1, trans., James Anderson (Eerdman's, 1949), Vol. 4, p. 7

 


Ps 19:6
His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it:
and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

Psalm 24:1,2
1The earth is the lord's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therin.
2For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.

Psalm 75:3
The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it.

Psalm 93:1
The lord reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the lord is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath
girded himself: the world also is stablished, that is cannot be moved.

Psalm 104:5
He established the earth upon its foundations, so that it will not totter, forever and ever.

Psalm 115:16
The heaven, even the heavens are the lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

Psalm 136:6
To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Psalm 148:4
Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

Psalm 149:1,3-4
1Praise ye the lord. Praise ye the lord from the heavens: praise him in the heights.
3Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.
4Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

1 Chronicles 16:30
Fear before him, and all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

I Samuel 2:8
He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among the
princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the lord's, and he
hath set the world upon them.

1 Samuel 2:10
The adversaries of the lord shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them:
the lord shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt
the horn of his anointed.

2 Samuel 22:8
Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth.

2Kings 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire,
and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind inot heaven.

2Kings 20:8-10
8And Hezekiah said unto Isaiah, What [shall be] the sign that the LORD will heal me, and that I shall go
up into the house of the LORD the third day?
9And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that he hath spoken:
shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?
10And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow
return backward ten degrees.
11And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it
had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.

Isaiah 11:12
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel,
and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Isaiah 40:21-22
21Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood
from the foundations of the earth?
22It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;
that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Isaiah 13:10
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened
in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Isaiah 13:13
Therefor I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the lord of
hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Isaiah 34:4
And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their
host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Daniel 8:10
And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground,
and stamped upon them.

Joshua 10:12-13
12Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel,
and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
13And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies.
Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down
about a whole day.

Genesis 7:19
And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were
under the whole heaven, were covered.

Genesis 1:14,15
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night;
and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

Genesis 1:20
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl
that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Genesis 11:4,5
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us
make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5And the lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

Genesis 28:12
And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold
the angels of god ascending and descending on it.

Deuteronomy 13:7
Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee,
from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth.

Deuteronomy 4:19
And lest tou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even
all the hosts of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the lord the god hath
divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

Deuteronomy 4:32
For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth,
and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing
is, or hath been heard like it?

Job 9:6
Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.

Job 11:8
It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?

Job 22:12
Is not god in height of heaven? And behold the height of the stars, how high they are!

Job 26:11
The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.

Job 26:7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Job 28:24 
24 For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven.

Job 38: 13,14
13That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

Deuteronomy 28:64
And the lord shall scatter thee among all people, from one end of the earth even unto the other;
and thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

Jeremiah 10:12,13
12He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched
out the heavens by his discretion.
13When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours
to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out
of his treasures.

Jeremiah 33:22
As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply
the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

Jeremiah 49:36
And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them
toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.

Exodus 19:20
And the lord cam down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the lord called Moses up to the top
of the mount: and Moses went up.

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Ecclesiastes 5:2
Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before god: for god is in
heaven, and thou upon the earth: therefore let thy words be few.

2Peter 3:5
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of god the heavens were of old, and the earth
standing out of the water and in the water.

Hebrews 1:10
Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth.

Matthew 2:9
When they had heard the king, they departed; and lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them,
till it came and stood over where the young child was.

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from
the four winds, from one end of heaven unto the other.

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her
light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thous hast said: nevertheless I say unto you. Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man
sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 4:8
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms
of the world, and the glory of them;

Mark 13:25
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

Luke 4:5
And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a
moment of time.

2Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body,
I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17
16For the lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump
of god: and the dead in christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together  with them in the clouds, to meet the lord in
the air: and so shall we ever be with the lord.

Revelation 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were
of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must ber hereafter.

Revelations 6:14
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved
out of their places.

Revelation 6:13
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is
shaken of a mighty wind.

Revelation 7:1
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four
winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Revelation 8:10
And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it
fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

Revelation 9:1
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the
key of the bottomless pit.
 
I'm sorry, but it looks like your scriptures are not relevant.

And you forgot this one:

Isaiah 40:18-26
18 To whom then will you liken God? Or what likeness will you compare to Him? 19 The workman molds an image, The goldsmith overspreads it with gold, And the silversmith casts silver chains. 20 Whoever is too impoverished for such a contribution Chooses a tree that will not rot; He seeks for himself a skillful workman To prepare a carved image that will not totter. 21 Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth? 22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

By the way, did you make that list yourself, or did you copy and paste it from somewhere, implying that it is your own?
 
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It is He who sits above the circle of the earth

I can't speak for zadok, but I imagine his point is that if the creationist position that all scripture must be interpreted literally unless the language is "obviously figurative" (or some such), then the creationist should also argue for a flat earth based on these passages.

That would apply also for your passage as well: every one knows that a circle is a 2-dimensional (flat) figure...

I noticed a typo here & there in zadock's post, so I am not given to believe that he copied and pasted it.
 
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Uh, could you explain what that box means? While I have heard of it, I am not familiar with Strong's. Do you know? How did you come to the conclusion that they weren't familiar with the concept?

Also, what is your evidence that ALL Christians are "flat-earth believers"? Sounds like an overgeneralization to me, not to mention completely inaccurate. And how is the first post "proof" of this overgeneralization? They have been completely taken out of context, and are not even relevant. Can you defend them (all of them, not a couple)?

How do you like them apples.
 
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Originally posted by psycmajor
Uh, could you explain what that box means? While I have heard of it, I am not familiar with Strong's.
Strong's is a fairly standard concordance of ancient Hebrew. It usually lists all known variant meanings for an ancient Hebrew word (this was the word translated "circle" in the KJV), so I just threw that in to point out that "circle" was not a mistranslation.

How did you come to the conclusion that they weren't familiar with the concept?

My words were "perhaps". In language there tend to be words for those things with which the culture is familiar. If a culture is not familiar with a concept (such as "car") then they are likely not to have a word for it. According to you, the Hebrews had no word for "sphere" - that might have been because they had not conceived of that kind of shape.  

How do you like them apples.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it. ;) 
 
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Originally posted by Jerry Smith


Strong's is a fairly standard concordance of ancient Hebrew. It usually lists all known variant meanings for an ancient Hebrew word (this was the word translated "circle" in the KJV), so I just threw that in to point out that "circle" was not a mistranslation.



Put that in your pipe and smoke it. ;) 

I never said that it was a mistranslation.

Can you clearly "prove" the Bible says the Earth is flat? Without taking it out of context or misinterpreting it?
 
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psych,

I am not a scholar. I try to stay reasonably well informed. I am certainly not infallible.

A few points in response to your edited post:
Also, what is your evidence that ALL Christians are "flat-earth believers"?

I have not claimed that all CHRISTIANS are flat-earthers. I pointed out that I believed Zadok's point was that the same reasoning that leads to CREATIONISM also must lead to the flat-earth position.

Sounds like an overgeneralization to me, not to mention completely inaccurate.

Obviously, not all creationists are flat-earthers, only a small minority of them. I think that Zadok's point is that more should be by applying the same reasoning to the passages he cited as they apply to the Genesis account of creation and the Flood.

And how is the first post "proof" of this overgeneralization?

Again, there is no overgeneralization. I will leave it to Zadok to defend his position. I am only trying to point out what I believe his position to be. If it is what I think it is, then I have to agree with it strongly.

They have been completely taken out of context, and are not even relevant. Can you defend them (all of them, not a couple)?

No, I can't defend all of them. Let me just pick one, and see if it supports my own position (that it is reasonable to draw as infallible fact conclusions that contradict such things as the known geometry of the earth, the distance and size of the stars, the heliocentric solar system, etc. - from Bible passages, as it is to draw strict YEC creationism from Genesis).

Matthew 4:8
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms
of the world, and the glory of them;

In order for all of the kingdoms of the world to be visible from a high mountain, the earth must be flat. If the devil only showed a "vision" of all the kingdoms, what was the point in taking Jesus up an "exceeding high" mountain?
 
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Originally posted by psycmajor
I never said that it was a mistranslation.

Can you clearly "prove" the Bible says the Earth is flat? Without taking it out of context or misinterpreting it?

Sorry, I missed this post, while I was replying to the other.

That does seem to be what it all comes down to. What is misinterpretation? How do you know that the flat-earth interpretation is the wrong one?

Creationists argue that evolution is non-Biblical because it contradicts their interpretation of the meaning of Genesis (and some other passages). Their position depends on their interpretation. They cannot "prove" that evolution is non-Biblical, because they cannot "prove" that their interpretation of Genesis is correct.

Likewise, no-one can prove that spherical earthism (or heliocentrism, etc..) are non-Biblical, because the "proof" relies on a specific interpretation of the Biblical passages above... If we are to be flexible enough to interpret those passages in light of scientific knowledge, why are we not also flexible enough to interpret the Genesis account in light of scientific knowledge as well?
 
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Originally posted by psycmajor

I never said that it was a mistranslation.

Can you clearly "prove" the Bible says the Earth is flat? Without taking it out of context or misinterpreting it?

It is pretty obvious that the Bible, taken literally, indicates that the earth is a flat thing which does not move, and which is supported "on" the waters.

This was a pretty common belief at the time when people wrote these things down, so it's not surprising at all.

The only honest answers are to admit that the Bible sometimes reflects the "science" of the people who wrote it down, or to maintain that the earth is a thing fixed in place, the surface of which is flat.
 
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Sorry, I didn't get a chance to reply sooner. My forum thingy won't let me post quotes and stuff now. I wonder why? What could I have disabled.

"I have not claimed that all CHRISTIANS are flat-earthers. I pointed out that I believed Zadok's point was that the same reasoning that leads to CREATIONISM also must lead to the flat-earth position."

Thats exactly what I am implying.

"And you forgot this one:

Isaiah 40:18-26
18 To whom then will you liken God? Or what likeness will you compare to Him? 19 The workman molds an image, The goldsmith overspreads it with gold, And the silversmith casts silver chains. 20 Whoever is too impoverished for such a contribution Chooses a tree that will not rot; He seeks for himself a skillful workman To prepare a carved image that will not totter. 21 Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth? 22 <B>It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,</B> And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."

No, I didn't forget that verse, its always been up there. That just shows that god is really high in heaven looking down on the earth, he sees the people as small and far away like grasshoppers.


"Can you clearly "prove" the Bible says the Earth is flat? Without taking it out of context or misinterpreting it?"

Yes, this is reflected in the extra biblical writtings and texts of the time it was being compiled and now (can we say, APOCRYPHA?). Also a little common sense dosn't hurt.

"I noticed a typo here &amp; there in zadock's post, so I am not given to believe that he copied and pasted it."

No I didn't cut and paste it. I was bored saturday morning and went chapter per chapter based on my bible knowledge and picked what I thought represented the beliefs at the time. I think I picked some good verses. I hope to compile more through time. Where was my typo?

"Likewise, no-one can prove that spherical earthism (or heliocentrism, etc..) are non-Biblical, because the "proof" relies on a&nbsp;specific interpretation of the Biblical passages above... If we are to be flexible enough to interpret those passages in light of scientific knowledge, why are we not also flexible enough to interpret the Genesis account in light of scientific knowledge as well?"

Sorry, the evidence for the genesis account dosn't add up with conventional science. Also, you cannot invoke the supernatural in science.

And if scientific knowledge shows a flat earth in the bible, what water does the genesis account hold? Why a litteral genesis when the rest of the bible preaches 'flat earth'? That seems conflicting to me.

I think you need to look back at what was happening hundreds of years ago. When they proposed the heliocentric solar system, it was met with anger and threats. This is because the bible clearly and blatently states that the earth is flat, heaven is up, hell (sheol, the underworld or whatever word you wanna use) is below the earth.

It is interesting to note that the babylonians use to make towers called 'ziggurats' that would ascend into the heavens to get the sky gods attention. This story is mimicked in the "tower of babel". This is just more evidence that some of the old testament stories were taken from the surrounding cultures and societies at the time. The biblical flood is just one such example.

Just look at it this way, the higher you go, the closer you are to god. This is always and clearly reflected in the bible. God always 'came down' to earth to converse or destroy. Things always 'came down' out of heaven. People would always go 'up' to heaven (enoch, jesus, jacob's ladder, angles going back to god), and would usually do it from high mountain tops (mount olive, mount ararat, the mount where moses recieved the first of the commandments).

All in all, the bible clearly and utterly states a flat earth, with the heavens above, with water above them and with god in heaven (zion) above all in his tent or tabernacle.

&nbsp;
 
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Originally posted by Zadok
Sorry, I didn't get a chance to reply sooner. My forum thingy won't let me post quotes and stuff now. I wonder why? What could I have disabled.

That's probably your vB code. Check your profile &amp; options.

"I have not claimed that all CHRISTIANS are flat-earthers. I pointed out that I believed Zadok's point was that the same reasoning that leads to CREATIONISM also must lead to the flat-earth position."

Thats exactly what I am implying.

I thought so.


No I didn't cut and paste it. I was bored saturday morning and went chapter per chapter based on my bible knowledge and picked what I thought represented the beliefs at the time. I think I picked some good verses. I hope to compile more through time. Where was my typo?

The one that stuck out was:

Therefor I will shake the heavens


going on...


"Likewise, no-one can prove that spherical earthism (or heliocentrism, etc..) are non-Biblical, because the "proof" relies on a&nbsp;specific interpretation of the Biblical passages above... If we are to be flexible enough to interpret those passages in light of scientific knowledge, why are we not also flexible enough to interpret the Genesis account in light of scientific knowledge as well?"

Sorry, the evidence for the genesis account dosn't add up with conventional science. Also, you cannot invoke the supernatural in science.

Zadok, you need not invoke the supernatural in science in order to interpret the Bible in light of scientific knowledge. Many do give a&nbsp;non-literal interpretation to Genesis because of the conflict between a literal account and the facts of&nbsp;astronomy, geology &amp; biology. Given that much of the&nbsp;Bible is interpreted non-literally in standard Christian exegesis,&nbsp;I don't think it is possible to criticize&nbsp;anyone for&nbsp;applying the same reasoning to Genesis.
 
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"Zadok, you need not invoke the supernatural in science in order to interpret the Bible in light of scientific knowledge. Many do give a&nbsp;non-literal interpretation to Genesis because of the conflict between a literal account and the facts of&nbsp;astronomy, geology &amp; biology. Given that <I>much</I> of the&nbsp;Bible is interpreted non-literally in standard Christian exegesis,&nbsp;I don't think it is possible to criticize&nbsp;anyone for&nbsp;applying the same reasoning to Genesis."

Yeah, I think I said something in a weird way somewhere along the lines. Let me clarify.

Fundamentalist christians take the genesis account litteraly, but ignore the flat-earth references on a literal basis. Before the protestant reformation everyone took BOTH on a literal basis.

Then they were utterly disproven. It now seems that most of christianity takes the genesis acount as either myth, allegory, or metaphor the same way the flat earth references are taken.

Except for the fundamentalists/literalists/inerrentists, they still adhere to the same old doctrine that died in the past. The creation myth. But not the flat earth myth. Their is so much elementary proof against a flat earth that no one in their right mind would accept such silly things.

Let me ask some fundamental christians something. How does the ascention of Jesus sound to you (remeber he physically went up off the ground and into the clouds, and promised to return from heaven the same way)? Is it Flat earth (geocentric) or spherical earth and a huge universe? Heaven was obviously 'up' to the writters of the bible, this is still demonstrated in our western cultural myths. How many times have you seen a cartoon character die some silly death only to turn into an angel and ascend (fly up) to heaven or the bad ones float down to hell.

They took a flat earth litteraly in those days. And only the flat earth model makes sense of scripture. But, i'm sorry to say, heaven is not up and hell is not down, earth is not on pillars, their is no water under the world or surrounding it, and you cannot climb a mountain top to see all the kingdoms of the world.

Why take genesis literally when the rest of the bible dosn't agree with modern astronomy? Why take one over the other?
 
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I am no scholar, but I belive that the verses that you bring up (at least some of them) do not say that the earth was flat.

When Satan took Jesus up to the "exceedingly high mountain" to show him the kingdoms of the world, it makes perfect sense that he would only need to show him the kingdoms that were in power at the time....the places in North America were not something that Satan would care about because they were simple tribes (if that) during this time.

Heaven being up and hell being down is a state of being, not a specific location. There are three heavens. The sky, the stars, and the place where God lives. All of them would be at a higher state than man...hence they are up.

Are you saying that since the earth is round, there is no concept of up? If heaven is another place not visible to us, it makes sense that it would be all around us, which would mean no matter where you are on the earth Heaven would be above you.

David
 
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Originally posted by flyingpenguin
I am no scholar, but I belive that the verses that you bring up (at least some of them) do not say that the earth was flat.

When Satan took Jesus up to the "exceedingly high mountain" to show him the kingdoms of the world, it makes perfect sense that he would only need to show him the kingdoms that were in power at the time....the places in North America were not something that Satan would care about because they were simple tribes (if that) during this time.


East Asia, on the other hand, had some pretty powerful kingdoms.
 
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