Halbhh

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Si_monfaith

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Hi Si_monfaith, I addressed that above directly, but perhaps it was too many words? Short answer: definitely Truth (with a capital T meaning not merely a good metaphor about something real, but a Truth from God). That does not mean you or me automatically though can reach more far-reaching conclusions (like so many people do), such as for example the views of some that there is therefore no free will. That's not implied. Why not? That I was addressing above. Any case, all of our viewpoints on things like determinism and free will are individuals trying to guess about mysteries.
Do you mean to say there are no other verses which support the truth God has exhaustive foreknowledge as in Proverbs 21:1 etc & so God's foreknowledge is a mystery?

You yet seem to deny God's foreknowledge from Psalms 139:4 though you acknowledge it as truth maybe not from your heart.
 
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Si_monfaith

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The best thing: Psalm 139 NIV is so wonderful and good when we read through it fully with just pure listening. When we just listen and absorb, then we get the real thing.
Is the real thing in that Psalm lead you to deny God's sovereign will in everything?
 
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Si_monfaith

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I was only referencing that my illustration of the analogy of gas in a chamber involves some ideas from physics, but that the specific instance of imagining we could track one molecule even theoretically involves some open questions in physics (in QM). But for that analogy above, it's useful to just think of the gas as a simple classical physics gas (without QM) for the use of the analogy.

It's an open question in physics whether nature (the Universe, physics) is fully deterministic (a clockwork universe) or instead indeterministic (not predictable by even an infinitely powerful computer for instance with a complete current state). There are plausible hypotheses for either view.

About your last question, which I think you mean as just a physics/QM question: no, that's not why physics would be indeterministic if it so happens to be, as far as I understand. That complexity of particles interacting would though be the basis for the common sense view that probably many have to guess that the universe is deterministic (clockwork) but incalculable. I remember having that view before I'd learned more in physics, and it's a possibility it inself: determinism was always going to be practically incalculable for complex systems (like a human brain) anyway. But, that's not my own expectation: I think instead it could well be that physics has true indeterminism built into it, but this is speculative (it can fit to what I know of QM though, where that's still (and perhaps may remain) an open question).
Isn't your analogy from qm for unpredictability absolutely false? Isn't that why it's yet a theory? Isn't God greater than the human brain or an infinitely powerful computer as conceived by humans?

Indeterminism built into it? Do you mean to say God built indeterminism to undermine Himself?
 
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Halbhh

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Do you mean to say there are no other verses which support the truth God has exhaustive foreknowledge as in Proverbs 21:1 etc & so God's foreknowledge is a mystery?

You yet seem to deny God's foreknowledge from Psalms 139:4 though you acknowledge it as truth maybe not from your heart.
Whenever you are tempted to jump to a conclusion and judge and accuse another believer of "denying" God's word (or denying God, denying His power), contrary to John 7:24, Matthew 7:1-5, pray for help! Christ gave us a prayer to pray daily, and we pray to not be led into temptation, and to be delivered from evil.

I can testify to you this prayer makes a huge difference each day! :)
 
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Halbhh

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Isn't your analogy from qm for unpredictability absolutely false? Isn't that why it's yet a theory? Isn't God greater than the human brain or an infinitely powerful computer as conceived by humans?

Indeterminism built into it? Do you mean to say God built indeterminism to undermine Himself?

Isn't your analogy from qm for unpredictability absolutely false?
Could be! I suspect it is very inadequate. Got that? (i'm asking you here to respond and tell me if that is clear: I myself think it's an inadequate analogy. Do you understand? Please answer and let me know)

We are not told all mysteries about all of the Universe. (instead we have revealed to us the deep things about salvation, through the words of Christ and the apostles, things even the prophets before Christ did not know much of)

Isn't God greater than the human brain or an infinitely powerful computer as conceived by humans?
Of course! Exactly! That's precisely my own viewpoint.

Can you see how it's hard for you to get what I meant? That's partly my fault. I should probably not even discuss such a complex thing with anyone that isn't already definitely interested and that I know for sure is willing to read long answers and not jump to conclusions too quickly.

My fault.

I can see I've not written nearly clearly enough above, and I was trying to write about complex questions too briefly.

Too few words.

As long as it seems ever as if I might have said God isn't omniscient, isn't the Creator of every last little thing in all of Nature A to Z, then it's a mistaking what I was saying. But it's not easy to talk about such complex things to begin with.

Here's a basic thing I know, that I should probably state every time these questions come up: God created all that is, and that includes all the laws of nature, physics. That means physics is His design.

We should not discuss further until we can do better at communicating and not jumping to wrong conclusions. Maybe the most key thing will be to pray the Lord's Prayer in real faith.
 
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Si_monfaith

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Isn't your analogy from qm for unpredictability absolutely false?
Could be! I suspect it is very inadequate. Got that? (i'm asking you here to respond and tell me if that is clear: I myself think it's an inadequate analogy. Do you understand? Please answer and let me know)

We are not told all mysteries about all of the Universe. (instead we have revealed to us the deep things about salvation, through the words of Christ and the apostles, things even the prophets before Christ did not know much of)

Isn't God greater than the human brain or an infinitely powerful computer as conceived by humans?
Of course! Exactly! That's precisely my own viewpoint.

Can you see how it's hard for you to get what I meant? That's partly my fault. I should probably not even discuss such a complex thing with anyone that isn't already definitely interested and that I know for sure is willing to read long answers and not jump to conclusions too quickly.

My fault.

I can see I've not written nearly clearly enough above, and I was trying to write about complex questions too briefly.

Too few words.

As long as it seems ever as if I might have said God isn't omniscient, isn't the Creator of every last little thing in all of Nature A to Z, then it's a mistaking what I was saying. But it's not easy to talk about such complex things to begin with.

Here's a basic thing I know, that I should probably state every time these questions come up: God created all that is, and that includes all the laws of nature, physics. That means physics is His design.

We should not discuss further until we can do better at communicating and not jumping to wrong conclusions. Maybe the most key thing will be to pray the Lord's Prayer in real faith.
Whenever you are tempted to jump to a conclusion and judge and accuse another believer of "denying" God's word
Are you yet trying to accuse me of accusing you without yet admitting God foreknows our spoken words as per Psalms 139:4? Is your claim Psalms 139:4 is truth simply a lip service?

and I was trying to write about complex questions too briefly.
Write with a false analogy? Are you making God's foreknowledge complex though you seem to admit Psalms 139:4 as truth?

That means physics is His design.
Doesn't qm falsely describe physics?
 
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Halbhh

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I believe in all the Bible, every word as true. And have read it all, and am doing so now again.


The way to read the gospels: to be silent and listen to all Christ says, and keep all He says in your thoughts.
 
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Si_monfaith

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I believe in all the Bible, every word as true. And have read it all, and am doing so now again.


The way to read the gospels: to be silent and listen to all Christ says, and keep all He says in your thoughts.

"Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him" (John 6:64).
 
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Halbhh

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Be sure to pray the prayer Christ said to you to pray. Believe in Him, not men.

To gain faith and to endure in faith listen to all Jesus said and begin to do what He said. His sheep listen to Him. Don't put faith in men, their doctrines. Follow Him, not men.
 
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Si_monfaith

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Be sure to pray the prayer Christ said to you to pray. Believe in Him, not men.

To gain faith and to endure in faith listen to all Jesus said and begin to do what He said. His sheep listen to Him. Don't put faith in men, their doctrines. Follow Him, not men.
Could Judas Iscariot have gained faith by listening?
 
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Halbhh

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Could Judas Iscariot have gained faith by listening?
Yes, if a total listening with all the heart. That level of trust.

But many pretend to listen, or listen half way. If a person thinks they already know, then they don't listen.

But true listening is rewarded.

Truly listening is very humble. To do that we have to become in a way like little children, as humble and open to Him as they are.
 
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Si_monfaith

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Yes, if a total listening with all the heart. That level of trust.

But many pretend to listen, or listen half way. If a person thinks they already know, then they don't listen.

But true listening is rewarded.

Truly listening is very humble. To do that we have to become in a way like little children, as humble and open to Him as they are.

John 6: 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? Yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He was speaking of Judas son of Simon Iscariot, for he, though one of the twelve, was going to betray him."

Did Jesus call him a devil before he could listen?
 
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Blade

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"whom He knew"... not here to say GOD does not know all. But.. is everything a test? Well creation.. "Adam where are you?" God didn't know? "Who told you...?" Again.. God didn't know? "did you eat from the tree I told you not to?" Again ..God didn't know?

God with Abraham.. to tell him what He was about to do. God said.. the cries have come up.. and He came to see if they were true "I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.".. came to see whether they have done.. God didn't know?

Yet He does. There is so much more to this "creation". Satan had already fallen.. that fire was already made for him and his angels. God is not evil.. He can never do anything unjust. God had a plan from the start...and right now? We don't need to know. It will have no effect on the out come for us what so ever. After this is over.. then we will know..and all about this SALVATION.. which is far deeper then we know.

We still think Jesus comes in the flesh.. dies on the cross.. rises AMEN! And then goes back as if nothing happen. Forever He will have the holes.. it COST God something to die for us. There is so much to this "Salvation" we don't comprehend
 
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Si_monfaith

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"whom He knew"... not here to say GOD does not know all. But.. is everything a test? Well creation.. "Adam where are you?" God didn't know? "Who told you...?" Again.. God didn't know? "did you eat from the tree I told you not to?" Again ..God didn't know?

God with Abraham.. to tell him what He was about to do. God said.. the cries have come up.. and He came to see if they were true "I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.".. came to see whether they have done.. God didn't know?

Yet He does. There is so much more to this "creation". Satan had already fallen.. that fire was already made for him and his angels. God is not evil.. He can never do anything unjust. God had a plan from the start...and right now? We don't need to know. It will have no effect on the out come for us what so ever. After this is over.. then we will know..and all about this SALVATION.. which is far deeper then we know.

We still think Jesus comes in the flesh.. dies on the cross.. rises AMEN! And then goes back as if nothing happen. Forever He will have the holes.. it COST God something to die for us. There is so much to this "Salvation" we don't comprehend

God is not evil.. He can never do anything unjust.

Is God accountable for His actions? If He does nothing unjust, why did He create those whom He knew wouldn't believe in His Son?
 
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Si_monfaith

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Paul covers this issue in Romans 9...

14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

From the passage you quoted as above, what's your reply to the original question?
 
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hhodgson

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All my posts have been deleted, I'm not sure how to interpret this...

Waiting for clarity...

Hi Carl... As a seasoned member of this forum, I see no reason why any of your posts to be disappearing from this forum.


Word of Faith.gif
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Why did God create most people whom He knew beforehand wouldn't accept His Son as the Savior?

You may post your opinions/answers in a Christ-like manner. God bless.
I have a response but it would be a violation of forum rules to post it here. Suffice to say God is better than we are. Not to worry. He is merciful, just and compassionate. At some point, you just have to believe these principles and keep moving forward. Do what He said to do, and leave it up to Him. We will see and understand one day... and when we do we will be joyful and glad. As the Psalmist said His judgements are always just and beyond question.
Rest in that, and just know He will make it all right.
 
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