Creation Scientists, please give me....

[Ishmael Borg]

The Creation narrative doesn't say how old the universe is. Although, it does in later passages talk about time but possibilities exist that this is not a problem. YEC and the time line 13.7 billion years can co-exist.

I said nothing about age of the universe, but I think you'll find that most YECs don't agree with you on this point.

As far as the species, they are in order with the fossil record. Excluding trees which again has some possiblity in interpretations.

No, the fossils are not found in any order consistent with literal Genesis.

 

[Ishmael Borg]

As far as the species, they are in order with the fossil record. Excluding trees which again has some possiblity in interpretations.

I almost forgot, the ORDER of species creation is not even consistent WITHIN Genesis.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Ok. Your hypothesis is that Genesis is a narrative that implies order. Your next step, scientifically, should be to make predictions based on this hypothesis. What predictions do these narrative implications make? Do they agree with nature? If not, what does it mean?

Exactly.

 

[Oncedeceived]

I said nothing about age of the universe, but I think you'll find that most YECs don't agree with you on this point.

Yes you did, you said:

I understand that. But nature, including the fossil record, provides evidence that points, inarguably, away from any creation-week scenario. Every species for which we have evidence, simply COULD NOT have existed within a YEC timeframe.

No, the fossils are not found in any order consistent with literal Genesis.

I disagree. Which are not? I have already excluded day three.

 

[Oncedeceived]

I almost forgot, the ORDER of species creation is not even consistent WITHIN Genesis.

?Please explain.

 

[JohnR7]

Actually Creationism is the theory. Creation is the thing being explained.

Actually Evolutionism is a theory. Evolution is the thing they are trying to explain. Of course they fail miserably at their attempt.

 

[Mistermystery]

Edit; never mind. I misread. but still: evolution still deals with creation, it only does not explain how the very first life was created.

 

[Loudmouth]

I have tested it. I do not blindly assert anything.

Well, let's see the tests. Show us how to test creationism. Show us the potential falsifications, that is certain evidence, if found, that would falsify creationism.

What I see in the natural world does not conflict with what the Bible says.

OK, first test. Using the order found in Genesis, which came first. Land mammals or whales? Now, is that order reflected in the actual fossil record?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Well, let's see the tests. Show us how to test creationism. Show us the potential falsifications, that is certain evidence, if found, that would falsify creationism.

With the scientific tests that you are familiar with.




OK, first test. Using the order found in Genesis, which came first. Land mammals or whales? Now, is that order reflected in the actual fossil record?[/QUOTE]
Whales are not mentioned in The Genesis order in the Creation week.

 

[JohnR7]

No, the fossils are not found in any order consistent with literal Genesis.

It is consistant, but the way it works out is that each day is half the length of the day before it. So if day one is 2 billion years, then day two would be 1 billion years and day three would be 1/2 billion years and so forth.

 

[Loudmouth]

With the scientific tests that you are familiar with.

This is like pulling teeth. Please be specific.

Whales are not mentioned in The Genesis order in the Creation week.

Yes they are, from the NIV (Genesis 1):

"20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning-the fifth day.
24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so."

So whales (great creatures of the sea) were created before land animals such as livestock (land mammals). Therefore, whales should appear before land mammals in the fossil record. This is not what we see. Instead, we see land mammals in the fossil record before whales. Therefore, there is a contradiction between the Genesis order and the fossil record. Your prediction has failed.

 

[Philosoft]

Actually Evolutionism is a theory. Evolution is the thing they are trying to explain. Of course they fail miserably at their attempt.

Don't forget folks, the 9:30 show is completely different from the 7:30 show.

 

[Nathan Poe]

In other words, what puts the "science" in Creation Science.

The same thing that puts the "bomp" in the Bomp-she-bomp-bomp...

 

[Oncedeceived]

This is like pulling teeth. Please be specific.

Fossil records, carbon dating.....normal everyday Scientific experimentation.

Yes they are, from the NIV (Genesis 1):

"20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning-the fifth day.
24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so."

So whales (great creatures of the sea) were created before land animals such as livestock (land mammals). Therefore, whales should appear before land mammals in the fossil record. This is not what we see. Instead, we see land mammals in the fossil record before whales. Therefore, there is a contradiction between the Genesis order and the fossil record. Your prediction has failed.

To get the correct translation it is best not to use such a contemporary Bible. Look at the English translated Hebrew:

1:1
IN THE beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

1:2
Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters.

1:3
And God said: 'Let there be light' And there was light.

1:4
And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.

1:5
And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

1:6
And God said: 'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters'.

1:7
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.

1:8
And God called the firmament Heaven And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

1:9
And God said: 'Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear' And it was so.

1:10
And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters called He Seas; and God saw that it was good.

1:11
And God said: 'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth' And it was so.

1:12
And the earth brought forth grass, herb yielding seed after its kind, and tree bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

1:13
And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.

1:14
And God said: 'Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years;

1:15
and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth' And it was so.

1:16
And God made the two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; and the stars.

Continued...
​

1:17
And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

1:18
and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good.

1:19
And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

1:20
And God said: 'Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let fowl fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven'.

1:21
And God created the great sea-monsters, and every living creature that creepeth, wherewith the waters swarmed, after its kind, and every winged fowl after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

1:22
And God blessed them, saying: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth'.

1:23
And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

1:24
And God said: 'Let the earth bring forth the living creature after its kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after its kind' And it was so.

1:25
And God made the beast of the earth after its kind, and the cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

1:26
And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth'.

1:27
And God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.

1:28
And God blessed them; and God said unto them: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that creepeth upon the earth'.

1:29
And God said: 'Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed--to you it shall be for food;

1:30
and to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is a living soul, I have given every green herb for food' And it was so.

1:31
And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

The NIV likes to give examples of what the interpreters feel the words really mean.

Sea monsters gave them a little unease I guess.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Fossil records, carbon dating.....normal everyday Scientific experimentation.

There are hundreds of thousands of fossils. Did you have a particular one in mind?

Carbon dating has little to do with the age of the Earth; its range is too small.

"Normal everyday scientific experimentation..." Perhaps you misunderstood the meaning of "please be specific."

To get the correct translation it is best not to use such a contemporary Bible. Look at the English translated Hebrew:

<snipped>

Oh, goody. You can recite Bible chapters. I thought you were talking about scientific tests.

 

[Oncedeceived]

There are hundreds of thousands of fossils. Did you have a particular one in mind?

No.

Carbon dating has little to do with the age of the Earth; its range is too small.

okay

"Normal everyday scientific experimentation..." Perhaps you misunderstood the meaning of "please be specific."

You asked me and I gave you a few. What are you looking for?

Oh, goody. You can recite Bible chapters. I thought you were talking about scientific tests.

We were talking about whales actually.

 

[Jet Black]

<biblical stuff>

The NIV likes to give examples of what the interpreters feel the words really mean.

Sea monsters gave them a little unease I guess.

see, whales before land animals, because it doesn't a second round of creation in the sea.

 

[Oncedeceived]

see, whales before land animals, because it doesn't a second round of creation in the sea.

What?

 

[Hydra009]

What?

According to Genesis, sea animals were created the 5th day. Land animals, Adam, and Eve were created on the 6th day.

 

[Jet Black]

What?

well according to the bible, all the stuff in the sea was created before the stuff on land, right? but the thing is, that whales, dolphins, porpoises and so on come after all the stuff on land (there are a few others, such as a species of waterborne sloth that is extinct, as well as manatees and things like that, but they aren'T as sophisticated as whales).... so it doesn't really fit that well. not to mention that grasses and so on came long after the animals.