Creating an ideal world - homosexuality

[Norm d'Plume]

Thank you for your reply, Resha.

1. I'm aware there is a diversity of opinions, and I'd like to hear as many of them as possible. Ultimately, I hope to define a society based on the totality of that feedback. As I've indicated, this will not be a perfect society, but perhaps one that conservatives would prefer to the one we have.
2. I'm going to present the society as an attempt at an ideal, constrained by real-life problems (e.g., the threat from external attack). I've already described quite a bit of detail about the purpose of my questions, and I posted the premise for the book on one of the threads. I'll include it below. Had I wanted to hide, I simply would have started discussions without telling anyone that the opinions are for a sci-fi story.
3. My views are irrelevant as long as I remain objective. I've opened up as to how the world is defined in the most recent draft, and have some initial feedback, which I'll consider. Even when my views align with what I'm trying to write, I still seek out other opinions beyond my own.

Below is the overall premise:

Into the Mind of God is the story of Joseph and Apollo, teenagers who live worlds apart but share a common bond — both are visited by a being who calls himself God. God takes each of them on an incredible journey to fulfill their destinies. With God’s help, one leads a holy crusade to conquer a perilously divided galaxy, while the other founds a radical new religion to steer mankind away from the Apocalypse. Ultimately, their destinies will collide, something neither may survive. But is God a real deity, or the imagination of two mentally ill boys?

And below is a link to the master thread on this site which provides a much more detailed view of the role God and religion play in the story.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/creating-an-ideal-world-for-conservative-christians.7890296/

Ultimately, the story reaffirms faith, which is as much about the ending as I want to tell.

Hope that helps.
Norm

 

[Pammalamma]

I don't know Norm. After reading this thread, it seems to me that the point of your story is that conservative Christians are cruel people who just want to kill gays and anyone else who sins. Is that a premise of your story? That's how it's coming across to me right now. I really hope not, though, because that would hypothetically be highly offensive.

Separatism has been tried to varying degrees of success since Christianity was legalized around 700. The monastic communities and the Amish seem like the most successful ones to me. But often, separatist communities are targeted and wiped out by the government, and I bet you've never heard of what happened in the Vendee in France, or the Covenanters of Scotland, but you really need to research the history of separatism and why people do it and what they really expect to accomplish, and what fates they tend to suffer, if you want to make your book believable. I just finished my book, and I had many, many pages of notes and research to make it sound more believable. The glossary alone is over ten pages. If you have not seen the movie "The Village," you should watch it before you continue writing. The basic premise is that we cannot separate ourselves from sin, because the sin is coming from within all of us. The only way to put an end to sin would be for us all to die or for Jesus to return and bring justice to this planet.

That's why I agree with one commenter "grasping at the wind," who tried to communicate that most Christians, in general don't believe that perfection can be achieved on this earth, so it would strain my credibility that any conservative Christians would attempt something like "New Bethlehem" where they are killing anyone who sins. You should consider whether you are basically drawing a parody or caricature that is more like a comic than a novel--"straw man."

Also, how does this character know he is gay, if he's only a teenager? If he's not of the age of consent, then we're only talking about feelings because having sex is illegal for kids, so why the "self-hatred?" If there has been no sex, then either he can't really know he's gay or he shouldn't be hating himself, because he's a virgin. Has he been sexually abused by a man? You didn't mention it. Just because someone has sexual thoughts about the same gender that last a lifetime, that does not force them to commit the act. Ask me how I know that.

If you want to know what I would like, and how I would change our society, it would be that my children will not be treated like KKK or neo-Nazis just because they don't want to do photography for a gay wedding. That would be awesome. In fact, I saw no real need for change in our society until Hillary Clinton downgraded my religious freedom to only "freedom of worship" instead of freedom to fully practice my religion. I guess it would be nice if there were an easier way to keep my kids from seeing porn on the internet, but that's kind of minor.

But do you know what I really, really want? I would be absolutely, completely, totally happy at any moment for Jesus to come back. In fact, I think about it several times a day, and I pray and ask Jesus to come back pretty much every day. That's because I know Jesus is the only one who can end all the suffering, sadness, and injustice I'm forced to look at as a Christian minister. I have to watch people lose their children to social services, go to jail, get divorced, cheat on their spouses, be extremely ill and have no medical care, lack food and clothing (at least I can help with that), lose one job after another because of untreated depression, abort children that should be allowed to live, get deported, receive unjust rulings from judges, be laughed at by prosecutors, hide abuse, and on, and on, and on. And I know every single one of these things and more will continue to happen as long as we are all here on Earth without Jesus as our king, to bring true justice and peace.

If you want to understand Christians, you're going to have to do a lot more listening and asking questions about what Christians want. For example, you could ask something like, "Why do you oppose gay marriage?" and then I would say something like, "Because it is not a picture of the relationship between Christ and the church, so it is not godly, and I don't want my children believing that idolatry (which describes all sexual sin, not just homosexuality) is acceptable, because if my children fall into idolatry, they might end up in Hell, and that would be the worst possible thing that could happen. Therefore, as much as I love my gay friends and want them to be happy, I don't think their need to feel societal approval is more important than my children's need to grow up in an environment that will not turn them into hellbound libertines."

Or you could ask, "Do you think homosexuality should be illegal?" and I could say, "No, but if someone asks me 'Do you approve of this?' I must disapprove of sin. I cannot ever approve of sin, no matter how much I like the person who is sinning, so if there is a chance to vote against increased sin in our society, I believe it is my duty to vote against it. That is what Jesus meant by being salt and light. Salt resists the spread of moral corruption, and light points it out. That's why I can't ignore or approve of sin, not because I hate sinners and want to control them. I can't hate sinners, because I'm a sinner."

Or, you could ask, "Do you think the best way to deal with sin is to execute the sinners, as they did in the Old Testament?" and I would say, "This has been tried by the Israelites, and the whole story is right there in the books of Exodus through the prophetic books. Hint: It doesn't work! They ended up sinning even worse than the pagans surrounding them."

So, if you start doing some of that kind of homework, you may be able to construct a more believable fantasy world for conservative Christians. I would wish you well on this book, but I'm still wondering what your major premise about Christians is so... not sure what to say.

 

[grasping the after wind]

I must be missing something. Fundamentalists, Evangelicals, Catholics, etc. all consider themselves to be conservative Christians. Is this not a forum that spans that spectrum? What definition of conservative Christians are you using?

Also, I couldn't find the Evangelical forum you were referring to, but my understanding of Evengelicals does not include the other denominations. On this site, this forum is classified as a faith group, not a denomination. What am I missing?

As for the constant thrashing I'm getting for attempting to define a conservative society grounded in Christianity, I refer you once again to the Puritans. If they can come to America to attempt to create a more ideal life for themselves that revolved around their specific Christian beliefs, then it's a reasonable premise. The world I'm trying to define will be no more or less perfect than that of the Puritans.

I mention my desire to attempt to define a Christian-oriented government that blurs the lines between church and state, and I'm told I don't understand the Bible. Hard-right conservatives would like nothing more than to turn back the clock to a more Christian-friendly era. That's why they want prayer in public schools, the teaching of Christianity in school, the teaching of creationism, and the Ten Commandments posted on court buildings, among other goals.

When I was growing up, all stores were closed on Sundays to allow for the observance of the Sabbath. It was in the law that you couldn't be open for business, which was later repealed. That's a simple example of the bluring between church and state, based on Christian values.

If you want to keep telling me I'm wrong, go express your views in the Fundamentalism forum and see if they agree. Fundmentalists, who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, have no problem with the death penalty, regardless of how Jesus felt about it.

I have no problem with a spirited debate, but I do have a problem for being attacked because I'm trying to be inclusive of other conservative views on Christianity.

Thanks.
Norm

By "being attacked" do you mean refusing to accept some stereotype you have of Conservative Christians? I do not recall anyone making any personal comments until you claimed to have been attacked. If you are looking for personal validation then you have come to the wrong place. Go find a close friend or relative that cares about propping up your ego instead of coming here where people will honestly answer you by telling you what they actually think about your ideas. If you feel you are too fragile to read honest opinions about the validity of your ideas you ought not present them to an audience that will honestly assess them and then complain about being attacked.

 

[Norm d'Plume]

Pam, thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed response. I still haven't figured out how to quote other posts properly on this site, but will do my best to address your concerns below.

It is absolutely not my intention to present any Christian society as cruel. My questions are intended to help me to understand the mindset of conservative Christians so that I can represent them as acurrately as possible. If I wanted to do otherwise, I could simply rely on caricatures like Pat Robertson. I understand that conservatives are viewed negatively because of people like him, and I don't judge Christian conservatives based on what he says.

The Bible says that homosexuals be put to death. As a result, it was natural for me to ask the question here to find out if there was a concensus like that among forum members. From a purely human perspective, I was pleased to find there is no such concensus. There are, however, people who answered that gays should be put to death, depending on circumstances. Were I to base my book solely on those views, then you'd have every reason to be offended. Based on what I've read so far, this is a topic that conservatives struggle with. That's probably how I'll represent them, unless additional feedback suggests otherwise.

The reason for the separatism of New Bethlehem's society is that, by the year 4017, the Earth is dying from the Warming, and people everywhere are being forced to colonize new planets to survive. I have one planet much like today's Russia, with massive military parades and a Lenin-like tomb for the galaxy's military rulers. I have another world inhabited by the descendants of the Mayans of central America, where they celebrate their tranditional culture. I spent three months just studying ancient Mayan society for what I eventually distilled down to one chapter. I've even resurrected the Roman Empire. I've already spent six months studying them, and will continue to do so well into the next draft.

New Bethlehem is at the heart of my story, so I'm spending an inordinate amount of time studying conservative Christianity. In the end, I'll probably use less than 10% of what I learn, but it will be as realistic as I can make it. I have Christians on my writer's site who are helping me shape the story, and I even picked up another reviewer from here yesterday. I also regularly interact with a wonderful Fundamentalist Christian on that site for his views. I will not present a world where humans are killed for every sin. There will, however, be capital punishment for treason, which is a pivotal event in the story.

The reason I chose a conservative Christian society is that I want one of my two main characters, Joseph, to come from a highly religious world where Christianity is in his bones. The other main character, Apollo, lives on Earth and is an atheist. The galaxy is divided into two sides who face off against each other as happened during the 20th century's cold war. The galaxy is on the verge of what they all call the Apocalypse, and needs a savior. Eventually both boys begin hearing a voice in their heads claiming to be God. As mentioned in the premise I posted here on the site, God takes each of them on incredible journey to fulfill their destinies to save the galaxy.

Both boys undergo extraordinary challenges as part of their character arcs. Joseph will struggle to reconcile his destiny and his religion, while Apollo will struggle with a voice he thinks is probably a sign of his own mental illness. The theme of the story is: those who struggle at the intersection of religion and mental illness have, in reality, been endowed with a gift for human empathy necessay to endure any hardship for the benefit of mankind. While I don't plan to give away the ending, I will say this story ultimately reaffirms faith, but it will be a dark and difficult road to travel.

As for the homosexuality, I'll admit I'm a little confused by some of your statements. Many gays realize they're homosexuals at puberty, if not sooner. To quote you: Ask me how I know that. I don't portray sex in my book since the characters are underage. As a result of Joseph's religious upbringing and his prominent role in society, he is terrified anyone will discover his orientation. He refuses to admit to himself that he might be gay, and is even very homophobic. All part of his struggle and character arc.

Although I personally would like a country free of racism and homophobia, it's never going to happen. Nevertheless, before the homosexual rights movement started, gays could lose their jobs, could be refused shelter, were threatened with violence, couldn't marry, couldn't adopt children, and couldn't even visit a dying partner in a hospital. When you look at that list, don't you think our society is better off increasingly eliminating such injustice? Personally, I really would prefer that a photographer or baker be allowed the right to refuse to serve gays on the basis of religion. But I don't know how to reconcile that with the right of all Americans to be treated equally.

I have such incredible respect for you as a minister working with people most in need in our society. I fit into many of the groups you help and have been blessed to have the support of people like you. I would very much like to keep in touch with you. If you want, you can email me at normdplume1965@gmail.com. I can then send you my real email address, or we can continue to interact here.

I would say "God bless you", but I think in your case it's more appropriate to say, "God blesses you." It was the Lord who taught me to say it correctly.

Take care.
Norm

 

[Norm d'Plume]

By "being attacked" do you mean refusing to accept some stereotype you have of Conservative Christians? I do not recall anyone making any personal comments until you claimed to have been attacked. If you are looking for personal validation then you have come to the wrong place. Go find a close friend or relative that cares about propping up your ego instead of coming here where people will honestly answer you by telling you what they actually think about your ideas. If you feel you are too fragile to read honest opinions about the validity of your ideas you ought not present them to an audience that will honestly assess them and then complain about being attacked.

You're right. I apologize. I was referring to the totality of responses I've received across all of the threads I created. I shouldn't have singled any one out.

 

[VegasGeorge]

If I understand correctly, your proposed novel concerns a world based on the Bible in the same sense as I believe Iran is based on the koran. Both the Bible and the koran forbid homosexuality. Under islamic law, homosexuals are beheaded or otherwise killed. In a Biblical (Christian) world, I suppose they would be counseled, offered help through prayer, and ultimately shunned or expelled if they continued their homosexual practices. And, even if shunned or expelled, the Christian community would continue to pray for them.

 

[Sketcher]

Homosexual behavior would be universally recognized as sin. Gay "marriage" wouldn't be publicly recognized, since marriage would be defined as one man and one woman, for life. No violence would be done to homosexuals, however. The church would receive and embrace them, but all parties involved would know that they wouldn't be engaging in same-sex relationships anymore. Such gay people would consider the trade well worth it, short term and long. The church would properly support them, without fear or hostility.