Created Grace makes no sense

Markie Boy

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 28, 2017
1,635
977
United States
✟375,608.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Not here looking to debate an Orthodox, but rather discuss with. Coming from a Catholic background, Sanctifying Grace and Actual Grace never really made sense to me. In trying to understand I found this video:

what is grace catholic - Bing video

The way they describe created grace sort of almost separates God into different "things". The idea that grace is a thing just makes no sense to me.

After listening to AFR's Imputed Righteousness series, the way he stated grace is a state of being, God's state of being - and grace is the Holy Spirit - made sense. He then describe that same energy does many different things, but it's the same uncreated energy that has always been. That makes sense.

The CA video says that Sanctifying Grace dwells in us, but then God gives Actual Grace(s) to cause us to do things. To me this says that the Grace dwelling in us can't cause us to do anything, so now we need something else to do that - that makes no sense.

Does that sound right?
 

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,090.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Luther himself critiqued this view of grace, that it is something doled out as things that we collect from God, like Mario gathering coins (to use a video game reference):

"In giving us gifts, God gives only what is His; but in His grace, He gives His very self. . . Grace is not divisible nor is it given piecemeal, as are gifts; but it takes us entirely into God’s favor for the sake of Christ, our Advocate and Mediator."
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,090.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
doesn't that go against the idea of the Incarnation and the Eucharist?

Yeah, sounds sort of Calvinistic, unless you believe in transubstantiation.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,090.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat

I think Fr. Matt explained it.

I was thinking of the philosophical assumption, that the finite cannot contain the infinite. I'm not sure if the Reformed actually use that terminology, but it's how Lutherans talk about why we aren't Reformed.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

AMM

A Beggar
Supporter
May 2, 2017
1,725
1,269
Virginia
✟329,845.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
I think he was referring to grace only as Uncreated.
I gotcha, so we partake of the uncreated divine nature because grace, which is the way that God acts and makes himself known in the world, is itself uncreated, even if he sometimes uses created physical means (like water, oil, bread+wine, human flesh) to deliver the grace to us and to sanctify the physical world?
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,468
20,025
41
Earth
✟1,455,670.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I gotcha, so we partake of the uncreated divine nature because grace, which is the way that God acts and makes himself known in the world, is itself uncreated, even if he sometimes uses created physical means (like water, oil, bread+wine, human flesh) to deliver the grace to us and to sanctify the physical world?

yes, energy or operation is natural, which means if we participate in the energies of God, we are participating in His divine nature.
 
Upvote 0

A Shield of Turquoise

Active Member
Apr 29, 2019
72
37
Southeastern Pennsylvania
✟15,080.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In Latin terms "created grace" refers to the effects of divine grace in creatures. It is not the same as what Palamism refers to as "energies." This is one of those cases where the Latins and the Orthodox were talking past each other.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,468
20,025
41
Earth
✟1,455,670.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
In Latin terms "created grace" refers to the effects of divine grace in creatures. It is not the same as what Palamism refers to as "energies." This is one of those cases where the Latins and the Orthodox were talking past each other.

maybe nowadays, but Barlaam was pretty clear that beholding the Uncreated Energies as Light was impossible, but only a created effect.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,468
20,025
41
Earth
✟1,455,670.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
maybe not now or even for a long time, but that doesn't mean they did at the time of the debates.

St Gregory Palamas is one of the Pillars of Orthodoxy because he stood against Roman innovation. and Barlaam was accepted into Rome and made a cardinal because Rome, at least at the time, sided with him on some very public and hotly contested debates.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,468
20,025
41
Earth
✟1,455,670.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
The Council of Chalcedon reinstated Ibas of Edessa on the basis of his "orthodox" letter. So I guess this means that the Eastern Orthodox teach the theology of Ibas today.

not according to St Justinian or the minutes of the Council, or subsequent Councils.
 
Upvote 0