COVID-19, the Eucharist, and Celiac Disease

[ArmyMatt]

If you think that The Orthodox Church is the dominant part of this cozy relationship between the Russian state and the church and could excommunicate anyone Putin didn’t want to excommunicated.....yeah, it is really not that likely is it ?

I never said it wasn't. that's not the specific issue we're talking about. not only that, but the Church had a cozy relationship with the Tsars, but that didn't stop the Church from excommunicating them from time to time.

that's a really dumb point to try to make.

 

[prodromos]

Plenty of people seemed to think it was the next best thing to second coming. Many of them from these forums.

There were all the same arguments why it was too Holy that it couldn’t be tested, why it wouldn’t work outside Dalton, Georgia, how thousands of people felt it cure their headaches and whatever.

“Pearce removed the Bible from its plastic bin and carried it throughout the crowd. The line of waiting people extended around the theater aisles. As the book touched their foreheads, many collapsed, some began sobbing or speaking in tongues. At least two people came onto the stage to be baptized.

Some from these forums actually believed it could raise dead people and collected many vials for emergencies.

Then it was exposed as hoax and people just shut up and went looking for the next “miracle”.

Which is of course the reason nobody allows testing of any of these relics.

Pretty much the same thing with some expensive artwork who are suspected to be fakes but their owners do not allow to test them.

Untested they still have value. Tested and proven forgeries they are worthless.

Miracles occuring through holy relics and icons are fairly commonplace in the Orthodox Church. We don't see any need for scientific examination because we can see the results with our own eyes, and by that I don't mean people claiming they've stopped getting headaches, I mean people with stage 4 cancer one day and no trace of cancer the next.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

I never said it wasn't. that's not the specific issue we're talking about.

Well , you did say the Church would excommunicate those bodyguards....but sure let’s get back to relics.

The myrrh streaming icon.

You believe if that icon was put on a box and the box put on scale and it gushed myrrh the scales would show how the mass of the box had divinely increased ? Mass out of nothing ?

Healing qualities. Do you believe that if you had lost your arm and rubbed some myrrh on the stump your arm would grow back ?

If not, why ?

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

I mean people with stage 4 cancer one day and no trace of cancer the next.

You make it sound like it was a commonplace happenstance.

If so why is it not mentioned anywhere. Why are the oncologist not advising their patients to turn to Orthodoxy to get healed ?

We do know cancers can have spontaneous remission. The chances mentioned in the link was something like one out of every 100000.

Sure, it is not a great chance but considering number of cancer patients it is not exactly a miracle either.

Is there any source to show that Orthodox participants actually have better averages ?

How Common Is Spontaneous Remission of Cancer?

 

[prodromos]

Well , you did say the Church would excommunicate those bodyguards....but sure let’s get back to relics.

The myrrh streaming icon.

You believe if that icon was put on a box and the box put on scale and it gushed myrrh the scales would show how the mass of the box had divinely increased ? Mass out of nothing ?

God created the entire universe out of nothing. Why do you have a problem with God creating myrrh?

Healing qualities. Do you believe that if you had lost your arm and rubbed some myrrh on the stump your arm would grow back ?

If not, why ?

If it was God's will for the salvation of my soul that my arm be healed, then I certainly believe God would restore my arm. A boy who was born without a fully developed spine and could not use his legs was completely healed through the intercession of St John the Russian, so I know that it can happen, but what if losing my arm was necessary to prevent me from following a lifestyle that would have led to the loss of my salvation, or what if it put me in situations where I was able to give courage and support to other amputees through our shared experiences?
We can pray for healing but first and foremost we pray that God's will be done.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

God created the entire universe out of nothing. Why do you have a problem with God creating myrrh?

I don’t. Just peculiar that something you could test in minutes with a scale and plastic box that would shatter the laws of physics and prove existence of supernatural has never been tried ?

Incidentally that same test could have used in the aforementioned oil leaking Bible. Surprisingly it wasn’t.

If it was God's will for the salvation of my soul that my arm be healed, then I certainly believe God would restore my arm.

So you believe every other miracle healing ever happening was for the salvation of that person’s soul and they were not given for any other reason ?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well , you did say the Church would excommunicate those bodyguards....but sure let’s get back to relics.

The myrrh streaming icon.

You believe if that icon was put on a box and the box put on scale and it gushed myrrh the scales would show how the mass of the box had divinely increased ? Mass out of nothing ?

Healing qualities. Do you believe that if you had lost your arm and rubbed some myrrh on the stump your arm would grow back ?

If not, why ?

actually, I said they should excommunicate them after I said they would. folks do break canons.

and yes, you can see it with your own eyes. the priest will actually take the icon out of its case, wipe it dry, and you can see it generate myrrh. mass from nothing. and when I say you can see it, I mean up close.

if it's God's will the limb be healed, then yes.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

if it's God's will the limb be healed, then yes.

God doesn’t seem to will it as often as He wills for flu, headaches or constipation to disappear.

Actually it seems He never wills it. The one thing we know doesn’t happen under normal circumstances ever.

Doesn’t happen with myrrh either. Quite a coincidence.

and yes, you can see it with your own eyes. the priest will actually take the icon out of its case, wipe it dry, and you can see it generate myrrh. mass from nothing. and when I say you can see it, I mean up close.

What do you think the priest would say if you presented the box and the scale, explained the simple experiment and asked for icon to be put on the box so everyone could see how the mass of the box and icon increased ?

 

[ArmyMatt]

God doesn’t seem to will it as often as He wills for flu, headaches or constipation to disappear.

Actually it seems He never wills it. The one thing we know doesn’t happen under normal circumstances ever.

Doesn’t happen with myrrh either. Quite a coincidence.



What do you think the priest would say if you presented the box and the scale, explained the simple experiment and asked for icon to be put on the box so everyone could see how the mass of the box and icon increased ?

to your first point, again, that's just an assertion. you don't know God's mind or what He does or doesn't do. it certainly did happen if you ever read the lives of the martyrs.

to your second, I dunno. it'd be pretty dumb though since he has empty vials and jars, and fills them up with myrrh in front of you. but it can't hurt to ask.

 

[prodromos]

You make it sound like it was a commonplace happenstance.

You have no idea.

If so why is it not mentioned anywhere. Why are the oncologist not advising their patients to turn to Orthodoxy to get healed ?

Not everyone is healed, and we want people to come to the Church for the salvation of their souls. For some, that may entail a lifetime of patiently enduring physical illness. God knows what each person needs in order to grow in Christ.

We do know cancers can have spontaneous remission. The chances mentioned in the link was something like one out of every 100000.

Sure, it is not a great chance but considering number of cancer patients it is not exactly a miracle either.

I don't believe there are any cases of spontaneous remission of stage 4 cancer. These people I know of were in hospital receiving treatment and there was no physical explanation for their healing. They were literally dying one day and completely healthy the next, and their healing took place on the feast day of the Saint they had been asking for prayer.

Is there any source to show that Orthodox participants actually have better averages ?

None that I know of.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

it'd be pretty dumb though since he has empty vials and jars, and fills them up with myrrh in front of you. but it can't hurt to ask.

You realize that was exactly what they did with the “oil leaking Bible” ?

The oil was bought from store and added to the Bible then distributed.

The act of doing so is nothing miraculous.

If on the other hand the icon or a Bible or whatever object is on sealed box and suddenly starts to leak manna, oil, myrrh , essence of Ganesha or whatever and the mass on the scale increases without anyone adding anything to the box it is a bona fide miracle.

However I don’t think you will ever ask of it whatever you say here and if you do I doubt the priest will allow it anyway although I am sure if it was essential to your salvation God would grant you courage to do it and arrange for that miracle.

Keeping this in mind I also believe this miracle is not essential to your salvation in any way.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

These people I know of were in hospital receiving treatment and there was no physical explanation for their healing. They were literally dying one day and completely healthy the next, and their healing took place on the feast day of the Saint they had been asking for prayer.

They were in hospital, got treatment and got better ?

Usually if there is something extraordinary it makes at least the local news. Got any links ?

 

[prodromos]

They were in hospital, got treatment and got better ?

It would be nice if you wouldn't be a jerk about this. Do you know anyone who has been treated for stage 4 cancer? Do you know what is involved in the treatment and how long it goes for and what all the side effects of the treatment are. Do you understand that you don't go from having cancer throughout your body to having no trace in the space of a few hours.

Usually if there is something extraordinary it makes at least the local news. Got any links ?

Actually, doctors are quite reluctant to go on record when their patients are miraculously healed.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

Actually, doctors are quite reluctant to go on record when their patients are miraculously healed.

So in other words you have nothing to back your story with ?

It would be nice if you wouldn't be a jerk about this. Do you know anyone who has been treated for stage 4 cancer? Do you know what is involved in the treatment and how long it goes for and what all the side effects of the treatment are. Do you understand that you don't go from having cancer throughout your body to having no trace in the space of a few hours.

No I don’t know anyone like that and you just implied there was a great conspiracy and doctors are not telling us about miracles.

Got to say they have done great job about it. Comparable to people deceiving us about globe earth with nobody being a whistleblower. Got to admire dedication like that for whatever reasons they have.

I think the most popular one is to hide proof of existence of God or something.

 

[ArmyMatt]

You realize that was exactly what they did with the “oil leaking Bible” ?

The oil was bought from store and added to the Bible then distributed.

The act of doing so is nothing miraculous.

If on the other hand the icon or a Bible or whatever object is on sealed box and suddenly starts to leak manna, oil, myrrh , essence of Ganesha or whatever and the mass on the scale increases without anyone adding anything to the box it is a bona fide miracle.

However I don’t think you will ever ask of it whatever you say here and if you do I doubt the priest will allow it anyway although I am sure if it was essential to your salvation God would grant you courage to do it and arrange for that miracle.

Keeping this in mind I also believe this miracle is not essential to your salvation in any way.

you do realize that earlier I said that the priest will wipe the icon dry in front of you, and you can see this icon generate myrrh before your own eyes. and that he has done this in front of anyone and everyone to include skeptics and non believers.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

you do realize that earlier I said that the priest will wipe the icon dry in front of you, and you can see this icon generate myrrh before your own eyes. and that he has done this in front of anyone and everyone to include skeptics and non believers.

Unless the icon is paper thin it can contain some liquid just like the fake oil Bible was submerged in oil then lifted off after which it miraculously leaked oil.

Ask for the weight test. They will never let you do it.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Unless the icon is paper thin it can contain some liquid just like the fake oil Bible was submerged in oil then lifted off after which it miraculously leaked oil.

Ask for the weight test. They will never let you do it.

the icon is a block of wood with no holes. the myrrh comes through the paint. but if it takes something paper thin, the Hawaiian Icon is just a print and is treated the same and also gushes myrrh.

but if watching a perfectly dry icon bead myrrh into an empty jar and fill it isn't enough, you could ask for your test. saying that they will never let you do the weight test is, again, just an assertion.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

the icon is a block of wood with no holes. the myrrh comes through the paint. but if it takes something paper thin, the Hawaiian Icon is just a print and is treated the same and also gushes myrrh.

Sure. It is totally unlike the Holy oil leaking Bible hoax.

There seems to have been Orthodox ones as well earlier.

10+ Best False miracle Claims in Eastern Orthodoxy images | orthodoxy, ephraim, miracles

Whatever.

They are never going to be allowed to be tested and if they were they would just say the miracle doesn’t work in lab or on top of the scale or something.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sure. It is totally unlike the Holy oil leaking Bible hoax.

There seems to have been Orthodox ones as well earlier.

10+ Best False miracle Claims in Eastern Orthodoxy images | orthodoxy, ephraim, miracles

Whatever.

They are never going to be allowed to be tested and if they were they would just say the miracle doesn’t work in lab or on top of the scale or something.

except they have been tested. the atheist communists tested this stuff all the time. and we totally know folks do hoaxes. pointing that out doesn't mean there aren't legit miracles.

plus, since the icons are opened to the public, these have been tested.

and nothing says "take me seriously" like a link to Pinterest with irrelevant anonymous authorship, that doesn't even have accurate facts or pictures.

whatever indeed.

seriously, know what you are talking about ahead of time.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

except they have been tested. the atheist communists tested this stuff all the time.

Sure they did. Do throw some credible links about it ?