COVID-19, the Eucharist, and Celiac Disease

[prodromos]

then how does it not transfer to others either, or to other priests? especially for those who have not been clergy for a long time?

Or the priest's family for that matter?

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

Or the priest's family for that matter?

Is this another Orthodox tradition that priest’s families do not get sick ?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Who says it does not ? You already have one dead bishop from Coronavirus and the epidemic is still in early phases.

that doesn't mean it was from communion. the question is if it comes from communion. you're not providing any evidence it's been transferred via the Eucharist.

you're just making assertions.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Or the priest's family for that matter?

yep.

 

[prodromos]

Is this another Orthodox tradition that priest’s families do not get sick ?

You are asserting that the priest may have developed an immunity, in which case he would act as a carrier of diseases he had just picked up from the chalice. Wouldn't his family be affected even if he wasn't?

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

You are asserting that the priest may have developed an immunity, in which case he would act as a carrier of diseases he had just picked up from the chalice. Wouldn't his family be affected even if he wasn't?

They might. It depends on the disease. Also consider that the priest is in frequent contact with his family for years so
naturally they have picked some germs from him over the years just like everyone else developing their immunities along the way.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

that doesn't mean it was from communion. the question is if it comes from communion. you're not providing any evidence it's been transferred via the Eucharist.

you're just making assertions.

We know how viruses and germs spread. The theory and science is tested and verified.

Actually you are making an assertion by claiming that for a special reason germ theory suddenly stops working when it comes to communion. It is a logical fallacy.

Special Pleading

As you have admitted yourself there has been no test results submitted on any peer reviewed studies that would in any way or form confirm this.

And of course there will not be because the world does not work that way.

It is naive to think that if it could be demonstrated that Eucharist miraculously did something that the fact would not be politicized by ambitious politicos like Putin if not by the Church itself.

The current practices of Eucharist during this time will get people killed statistically whatever you personally know anyone affected or not.

 

[prodromos]

We know how viruses and germs spread. The theory and science is tested and verified.

We also know how cancer spreads through the body, and yet I know people who had advanced inoperable cancer who suddenly had no trace of the disease at all in their body by the action of God at the request of His Saints.

Actually you are making an assertion by claiming that for a special reason germ theory suddenly stops working when it comes to communion. It is a logical fallacy.

The Scriptures are full of examples where the mere touch of Christ immediately healed the affliction of whoever was suffering. You are a strange Christian who doesn't believe the Scriptures.

As you have admitted yourself there has been no test results submitted on any peer reviewed studies that would in any way or form confirm this.

We have the living witness of the Church over 2000 years. What more do we need?

It is naive to think that if it could be demonstrated that Eucharist miraculously did something that the fact would not be politicized by ambitious politicos like Putin if not by the Church itself.

That is complete nonsense. What political advantage could Putin possibly gain?
You yourself don't believe it, so what advantage would there be for the Church to publicise it. It is you who is naive.

The current practices of Eucharist during this time will get people killed statistically whatever you personally know anyone affected or not.

We understand that this is your opinion, yet you have not cited a single case where disease has been spread through the sharing of the eucharist.

 

[ArmyMatt]

We know how viruses and germs spread. The theory and science is tested and verified.

Actually you are making an assertion by claiming that for a special reason germ theory suddenly stops working when it comes to communion. It is a logical fallacy.

Special Pleading

As you have admitted yourself there has been no test results submitted on any peer reviewed studies that would in any way or form confirm this.

And of course there will not be because the world does not work that way.

It is naive to think that if it could be demonstrated that Eucharist miraculously did something that the fact would not be politicized by ambitious politicos like Putin if not by the Church itself.

The current practices of Eucharist during this time will get people killed statistically whatever you personally know anyone affected or not.

well, it's not special pleading since I am not making a philosophical argument, but a theological one.

be that as it may, it's the Body and Blood of God Himself, it's not just blessed bread and wine. plus we have 2000 years of people not getting sick from the Eucharist. you might not like the answer, but we're not NOT providing adequate information and so no one is doing any logical fallacies. you might not agree with our information or reasoning, but that doesn't mean it's inadequate. you should really stop pointing them out, as you are 0-2 when it comes to them.

Putin would not need to use miracles when it comes to the Eucharist, because in Russia that's a commonly held and historic belief. it would not provide him any advantage.

as far as your last point, that's only if you don't believe the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of God.

 

[Vasileios]

This conversation is a wonderful example of the different mindsets between East and West. Westerners want scientific proof and think it is a great idea to test the mysteries. I remember St Paisios speaking about people demanding miracles to believe and verifying every detail and he used precisely that example, "like the Catholics who even put their holy bread under the microscope!", in a way that needed no more words, "what more can you say", that is how much we find this concept foreign, utterly blasphemous.

We would never test the Holy Gifts. Putin, or whoever, if he ever wanted to try that, would be met with outrage, just like our government has for closing the churches(at least from the faithful - I live in Greece). We accept that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ, impossible to transmit disease. Simply as fact, that's not a bug, that's a feature.

However, anyone who want to investigate can research how many Orthodox priests over the past many decades have been hospitalized with infectious diseases, as all of them regularly consume the remains of the chalice, so statistically speaking they should be regular visitors. Or see the proportion of Orthodox patients in ICU with Coronavirus in countries with mixed populations. They should be disproportionately higher since they follow this "obviously" reckless habit.

Growing up Orthodox, the stories of priests giving communion to very sick people and never getting anything was just common. That's enough for us.

 

[KernelPanic]

As you have admitted yourself there has been no test results submitted on any peer reviewed studies that would in any way or form confirm this.

I don't know if there have been studies on germ transmission on communion cups within Orthodox churches, but there have been with Catholic/Protestant ones.

The hazard of infection from the shared communion cup. - PubMed - NCBI

"There is substantial evidence that neither infection with hepatitis B virus nor HIV can be transmitted directly via saliva so that indirect transmission via inanimate objects is even less likely. No episode of disease attributable to the shared communion cup has ever been reported. Currently available data do not provide any support for suggesting that the practice of sharing a common communion cup should be abandoned because it might spread infection."

https://epublications.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2488&context=lnq

Key points with this one:

• The number of organisms deposited on the rim of the cup was small.
• Wiping the rim of the cup reduced the number of organisms by 90%.

From the CDC: https://www.ntnl.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Common-Cup-CDC.pdf

"Experimental studies have shown that bacteria and viruses can contaminate a common communion cup and survive despite the alcohol content of the wine. Therefore, an ill person or asymptomatic carrier drinking from the common cup could potentially expose other members of the congregation to pathogens present in saliva. Were any diseases transmitted by this practice, they most likely would be common viral illnesses, such as the common cold. However, a recent study of 681 persons found that people who receive Communion as often as daily are not at higher risk of infection compared with persons who do not receive communion or persons who do not attend Christian church services at all."

I'd also argue that distributing communion with a spoon is safer since you don't run the risk of backwash flowing back into the communion cup as is with Catholic/Protestant churches. In my opinion, if a priest or bishop did want to add a precautionary measure, they should instruct the person to tilt their head back and allow the host to fall in their mouth.

The reality is that you're more likely to get sick by touching a door handle or handling money.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

“In summary, the risk for infectious disease transmission by a common communion cup is very low, and appropriate safeguards-that is, wiping the interior and exterior rim between communicants, use of care to rotate the cloth during use, and use of a clean cloth for each service-would further diminish this risk. In addition, churches may wish to consider advising their congregations that sharing the communion cup is discouraged if a person has an active respiratory infection (ie, cold or flu)”

Things we do know. We know COVID19 spreads easier than common cold and even this study said that viruses are the most likely thing to transmit during communion and appropriate safety precautions would reduce the risk.

Nowhere in this study does anyone claim that the infection is impossible because the germs would miraculously die or something. Just that the risk is rather low.

There is a quality of difference saying something has a low probability of spreading disease rather than saying that the spread is impossible because God wills it so.

 

[prodromos]

“In summary, the risk for infectious disease transmission by a common communion cup is very low, and appropriate safeguards-that is, wiping the interior and exterior rim between communicants, use of care to rotate the cloth during use, and use of a clean cloth for each service-would further diminish this risk. In addition, churches may wish to consider advising their congregations that sharing the communion cup is discouraged if a person has an active respiratory infection (ie, cold or flu)”

Things we do know. We know COVID19 spreads easier than common cold and even this study said that viruses are the most likely thing to transmit during communion and appropriate safety precautions would reduce the risk.

Nowhere in this study does anyone claim that the infection is impossible because the germs would miraculously die or something. Just that the risk is rather low.

There is a quality of difference saying something has a low probability of spreading disease rather than saying that the spread is impossible because God wills it so.

These studies were done by those outside the Orthodox Church. They do not influence what the teaching of the Church has always been. All these studies focus purely on created matter and ignore the divine aspect of the Holy Eucharist. Our history is full of examples of the Church trusting God and God saving his people.
Wildfires have been stopped by Holy Icons, plagues have been stopped by Holy Relics. Whenever we trust God He responds to our faith. Why is it we have so little trust in God today?

 

[ArmyMatt]

something else we know is that there has been no mass reports of Orthodox Christians getting this disease from communion.

 

[Not David]

Empiricism is one of the worst things that happened to the West

 

[SalemsConcordance]

With no mass die offs of Orthodox Christians, nor grocery store workers, protestors, delivery drivers and the like, it may be looked at as being a virus that is dangerous to a very small subset of the population (and should be protected), but with too much heightened media panic and a great tool of opportunity of totalitarian control.
Edited: I forgot to post in TAW Militants! Corrected.

 

[buzuxi02]

With no mass die offs of Orthodox Christians, nor grocery store workers, protestors, delivery drivers and the like, it may be looked at as being a virus that is dangerous to a very small subset of the population (and should be protected), but with too much heightened media panic and a great tool of opportunity of totalitarian control.

I was one of those that was told early on I would be dead from it. Early reports out of NY was that something like over 50% of new Yorkers will get it. Being an essential worker I worked without a mask. My cousin would come visit me, himself working as an electrician with his 75 year old dad who never wear masks while working. Keep in mind this was during the height or should I say hype as talk of not enough ventilators and mask shortages and overwhelmed hospitals with staff contracting corona and dying etc. When travel restrictions were loosened I went to Florida (the time cases were spiking and supposedly new hot spot), no need to wear masks in the gym in Florida when working out and they were packed!. My main hang out was a Greek cafe with Greek dancing and lots of mingling especially on the weekends absolutely no mask enforcement whatsoever. I was there 6 weeks and recently got back. I can honestly tell you I had a chronic cough for like 2 years (nothing to do with corona and predates it ) it cleared up in Florida!

 

[Xenophon]

I was one of those that was told early on I would be dead from it. Early reports out of NY was that something like over 50% of new Yorkers will get it. Being an essential worker I worked without a mask. My cousin would come visit me, himself working as an electrician with his 75 year old dad who never wear masks while working. Keep in mind this was during the height or should I say hype as talk of not enough ventilators and mask shortages and overwhelmed hospitals with staff contracting corona and dying etc. When travel restrictions were loosened I went to Florida (the time cases were spiking and supposedly new hot spot), no need to wear masks in the gym in Florida when working out and they were packed!. My main hang out was a Greek cafe with Greek dancing and lots of mingling especially on the weekends absolutely no mask enforcement whatsoever. I was there 6 weeks and recently got back. I can honestly tell you I had a chronic cough for like 2 years (nothing to do with corona and predates it ) it cleared up in Florida!

Glad you are doing well.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

Wildfires have been stopped by Holy Icons, plagues have been stopped by Holy Relics. Whenever we trust God He responds to our faith. Why is it we have so little trust in God today?

So you don’t have a theory why Orthodox Church isn’t stopping the forest fires in California or banishing Covid19 with Holy Relics and saving the lives of thousands of people ?

What could the people in charge of those Holy Relics know about them that prevented them for stopping these disasters, gaining faithful for the church and saving thousands ?

You seemed to imply they lacked faith. Like they felt those Holy Relics wouldn’t do anything.

Like it would be bad PR to have a priest march to raging inferno in California with their relics and have their charred corpse carried out later.

Ever thought they might have a point ?

 

[Xenophon]

So you don’t have a theory why Orthodox Church isn’t stopping the forest fires in California or banishing Covid19 with Holy Relics and saving the lives of thousands of people ?

What could the people in charge of those Holy Relics know about them that prevented them for stopping these disasters, gaining faithful for the church and saving thousands ?

You seemed to imply they lacked faith. Like they felt those Holy Relics wouldn’t do anything.

Like it would be bad PR to have a priest march to raging inferno in California with their relics and have their charred corpse carried out later.

Ever thought they might have a point ?

It's been done. But don't test God.

I would assume you aren't a Christian since you have no faith.