COVID-19, the Eucharist, and Celiac Disease

[trulytheone]

2000 years of infectious diseases and sharing the eucharist and there has never been a case where an Orthodox priest has contracted disease from consuming the last of the gifts.

Do you think that this belief could be demonstrated to be false by observing if one becomes infected by receiving communion after a certain number people infected with COVID-19 lined up to receive communion (while they practicing extra precaution throughout the whole service and in lining up for communion)?
I ask this because this belief is apparently falsifiable (i.e. could be demonstrated to
be false by the scientific method).

 

[trulytheone]

2000 years of infectious diseases and sharing the eucharist and there has never been a case where an Orthodox priest has contracted disease from consuming the last of the gifts.

And I do not think you could argue that. The past plagues in Europe and their spread could be explained by non-EO as partially caused by the shared cup.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The usual EO explanation for the continuation of the common spoon is that the Eucharist would bless the part of the spoon of that was dipped in the Precious Blood so that it couldn’t transmit disease. The Russian Orthodox apparently disagree with that. Was this practice of disinfecting the spoon after each partaker receives communion really common in Eastern Orthodox Church during epidemics or plagues?

I dunno about the spoon, all I can speak to is the Eucharist itself, which doesn't transmit disease.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It is a debate forum at least so feel free to defend your position instead of only adding non contributing ad hominems.

for one, that wasn't an ad hominem.

for two, I communed a guy with strep throat. after I gave him communion (and he communed last), put the spoon back into the chalice, cleaned it off by putting it in my own mouth, and then after the service was done, completely consumed the rest of the chalice.

no strep throat. and that has happened to me whenever I have taken communion to the sick or when the sick have come to me.

 

[trulytheone]

for one, that wasn't an ad hominem.

for two, I communed a guy with strep throat. after I gave him communion (and he communed last), put the spoon back into the chalice, cleaned it off by putting it in my own mouth, and then after the service was done, completely consumed the rest of the chalice.

no strep throat. and that has happened to me whenever I have taken communion to the sick or when the sick have come to me.

Hopefully last question: if the scientists were to discover that pockets of the recent pandemic is caused by the shared cup and shared spoon in EO temples, would this mean the EO would have to reevaluate what they believe about the Eucharist and that the bishops were wrong in using the shared spoon?

 

[prodromos]

Hopefully last question: if it were to be discovered by the scientists that a pocket of the recent pandemic is caused by the shared cup and shared spoon in EO temples, would this mean the EO would have to reevaluate what they believe about the Eucharist and that the bishops were wrong in using the shared spoon?

The Orthodox Church is theanthropic. As it is Christ's body the Church is both human and divine and we experience the supranatural as the 'natural' state of affairs, especially in the context of the Divine Liturgy and the Eucharist. Miracles are almost commonplace.
Against this background, your hypothetical question makes very little sense. We have every reason to believe and have no reason to doubt. You might as well be asking if we would reevaluate the heliocentric view of our solar system if the sun did not happen to rise one day.

 

[trulytheone]

Against this background, your hypothetical question makes very little sense. We have every reason to believe and have no reason to doubt.

Let’s observe that within a few weeks until one month. Considering that many EO churches disregard the medical professionals’ objection against the shared spoon and cup, let’s see how countries with EO majority would be affected by this pandemic (with the exemption of Russia, as I do not trust their count of those affected by the COVID-19).

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

We have every reason to believe and have no reason to doubt. You might as well be asking if we would reevaluate the heliocentric view of our solar system if the sun did not happen to rise one day.

This would be bit more akin to Galileo physically seeing with his telescope that what The RCC at the time taught was demonstrably incorrect and everyone with telescope could actually see it.

Although in this case it just involves microscope and Eucharist.

You are free to believe whatever you want but scientific evidence will not support that otherwise it would have been hailed as a miracle ages ago.

At certain point it is the church teachings that change just like earth centric worldview gave way to a heliocentric one.

As for not getting infected easily from strep throat and whatever perhaps you even get resistances for bacteria or viruses by sharing the chalice.

This of course would not help with Covid 19 at this point because people do have immunities to it yet.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Hopefully last question: if the scientists were to discover that pockets of the recent pandemic is caused by the shared cup and shared spoon in EO temples, would this mean the EO would have to reevaluate what they believe about the Eucharist and that the bishops were wrong in using the shared spoon?

no, the shared spoon isn't a theological issue.

 

[ArmyMatt]

As for not getting infected easily from strep throat and whatever perhaps you even get resistances for bacteria or viruses by sharing the chalice.

This of course would not help with Covid 19 at this point because people do have immunities to it yet.

well, is there any evidence that sharing a chalice would immunize me or build a resistance to every disease a parishioner has?

 

[buzuxi02]

Let’s observe that within a few weeks until one month. Considering that many EO churches disregard the medical professionals’ objection against the shared spoon and cup, let’s see how countries with EO majority would be affected by this pandemic (with the exemption of Russia, as I do not trust their count of those affected by the COVID-19).

Well that's a kind of an unusual litmus test.
If that's the litmus test we don't even have to weigh in on Covid. The fact that Greece is one of the poorest EU countries with a horrible health system and is the #1 ranked country with the number of smokers in the world. Yet their life expectancy is higher than in the U.S. would suffice.
And how about the countries with a very low death rate such as S. Korea, Taiwan, Israel and even poor Vietnam that has left us scratching our heads?

Russian numbers would be a moot point as their bishops are not addressing the issue on Holy Communion. The Russian church told its laity to follow the sanitary recommendations of authorities and bishops and not to test God. Patriarch Kirill of Moscow said for believers not to question those with less faith as this could lead you to sin. Just as you would not cross yourself and jump off a building to prove a point that God can save you.
Thus just as Christ tempted in the desert he did not bow to satan. We dont scrutinize mysteries on scientific basis.
The Church of Cyprus stated its impossible to transmit disease through Communion but laity can refrain from Communion if they wish...Holy Synod: blasphemy to think holy communion could spread viruses - Cyprus Mail

 

[trulytheone]

well, is there any evidence that sharing a chalice would immunize me or build a resistance to every disease a parishioner has?

Did you have strep throat before your ordination or long after you have communed the person with strep throat?

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

well, is there any evidence that sharing a chalice would immunize me or build a resistance to every disease a parishioner has?

Sure. The principles are pretty well understood.

Infectious Disease - Vaccines & Human Immunity

When the body is exposed to viruses, bacteria, fungi, or parasites through an infection or vaccination the immune system creates antibodies and immune cells that inactivate or destroy the specific infectious organism. If we encounter the same organism in the future, the immune system “remembers” that previous exposure and can mount a vigorous defense.

We gain specific immunity in several ways. We gain temporary immunity to some diseases by acquiring antibodies directly from our mothers when we are in the womb. Throughout life, we gain specific immunity as we are exposed to new organisms. Infections create memory cells that can protect us from future infection from the same or related organisms. Vaccines stimulate the same process.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Did you have strep throat before your ordination or long after you have communed the person with strep throat?

nope

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sure. The principles are pretty well understood.

Infectious Disease - Vaccines & Human Immunity

When the body is exposed to viruses, bacteria, fungi, or parasites through an infection or vaccination the immune system creates antibodies and immune cells that inactivate or destroy the specific infectious organism. If we encounter the same organism in the future, the immune system “remembers” that previous exposure and can mount a vigorous defense.

We gain specific immunity in several ways. We gain temporary immunity to some diseases by acquiring antibodies directly from our mothers when we are in the womb. Throughout life, we gain specific immunity as we are exposed to new organisms. Infections create memory cells that can protect us from future infection from the same or related organisms. Vaccines stimulate the same process.

then how does that work for diseases I have not been exposed to or have had?

 

[prodromos]

Although in this case it just involves microscope and Eucharist

The supranatural cannot be tested by natural means.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

then how does that work for diseases I have not been exposed to or have had?

Just like Covid19, some can carry the virus without noticing any effects , others die.

Perhaps you have a robust immunity system honed by your exposure to countless shared Eucharists and you will be fine.

Of course during your decades of life it is pretty probable that you have been exposed to most diseases going around your neighborhood whatever you have noticed them or not and gained some measure of immunity not even counting normal vaccinations that most people get on industrialized societies.

If you should happen to get introduced to a whole host of new diseases and germs at the same time......well it would be bad.

Guns Germs & Steel: Variables. Smallpox | PBS

“Within just a few generations, the continents of the Americas were virtually emptied of their native inhabitants – some academics estimate that approximately 20 million people may have died in the years following the European invasion – up to 95% of the population of the Americas.

No medieval force, no matter how bloodthirsty, could have achieved such enormous levels of genocide. Instead, Europeans were aided by a deadly secret weapon they weren't even aware they were carrying: Smallpox.“

Pretty sordid stuff. Informative link though. Gives bit of scope how bad it could get.

Millions of natives dying to diseases they had no immunity for nor time or knowledge to handle while under European conquest of their lands.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Just like Covid19, some can carry the virus without noticing any effects , others die.

Perhaps you have a robust immunity system honed by your exposure to countless shared Eucharists and you will be fine.

Of course during your decades of life it is pretty probable that you have been exposed to most diseases going around your neighborhood whatever you have noticed them or not and gained some measure of immunity not even counting normal vaccinations that most people get on industrialized societies.

If you should happen to get introduced to a whole host of new diseases and germs at the same time......well it would be bad.

Guns Germs & Steel: Variables. Smallpox | PBS

“Within just a few generations, the continents of the Americas were virtually emptied of their native inhabitants – some academics estimate that approximately 20 million people may have died in the years following the European invasion – up to 95% of the population of the Americas.

No medieval force, no matter how bloodthirsty, could have achieved such enormous levels of genocide. Instead, Europeans were aided by a deadly secret weapon they weren't even aware they were carrying: Smallpox.“

Pretty sordid stuff. Informative link though. Gives bit of scope how bad it could get.

Millions of natives dying to diseases they had no immunity for nor time or knowledge to handle while under European conquest of their lands.

then how does it not transfer to others either, or to other priests? especially for those who have not been clergy for a long time?

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

The supranatural cannot be tested by natural means.

Indeed. Which is why something like God could not be physically tested.

However wine,bread, chalice and icons are physical substances which you can indeed test.

If during the tests viruses are detected in large enough quantities that virus transmission is possible then it makes sense to go with sensible precautions instead of relying on Orthodox traditions to keep people safe.

Especially since lot of church goers and clergy are older people that are in a risk group.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

then how does it not transfer to others either, or to other priests? especially for those who have not been clergy for a long time?

Who says it does not ? You already have one dead bishop from Coronavirus and the epidemic is still in early phases.