Covenant with Abraham - In Essence, a Christian Covenant?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I disagree. The Abrahamic covenant was always meant to be an everlasting covenant to be inherited by all of Abraham's seed (or descendants).

[Gen 15:5-6 NASB] 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants [seed, singular] be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Gen 17:4-10 NASB 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants [seed, singular] after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants [seed, singlular] after you. 8 "I will give to you and to your descendants [seed, singular] after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." 9 God said further to Abraham, "Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants [seed, singular] after you throughout their generations. 10 "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants [seed, singular] after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.

[Gal 3:6-9 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

[Rom 4:11-17 NASB] 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.​

What you don't realize is that the New Covenant is the Abrahamic covenant.

[Gal 3:16 NASB] 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.​

Go back to Genesis 15-17 and whenever it uses the term (in the King James) "Seed"... it is singular and as Gal 3:16 says, it means God is talking about Jesus Christ. More modern translations translate the "Seed, singular" as "descendants." That Abrahamic covenant WAS God's covenant with Jesus Christ. The Abrahamic covenant is the "covenant of faith."

[Gal 3:14-17 NASB] 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is [only] a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.​

I humbly disagree. Here is why:

[Rom 4:9-17 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

[Gal 4:22-28 NASB] 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these [women] are two covenants: one [proceeding] from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

[Rom 2:28-29 NASB] 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.​

The Abrahamic covenant IS the covenant of faith... it IS the covenant God makes with Christ. It was made to to Abraham and to his seed (singular), meaning Christ. Having just said the "seed" (singular) that the promise was made to was Christ in Gal 3:16, it says:

[Gal 3:18-19 NASB] 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. 19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.​

The "seed to whom the promise had been made" was Christ. This is interesting... it means the covenant of faith pre-dates the covenant of The Law. Look up above in Galatians 3:17; it says the law came 430 years after the covenant of faith was ratified, and that once ratified it can no longer have conditions added to it. This means the covenant of faith was given when The Law didn't exist. It is truly apart from The Law. What it also means is that The Law has never existed apart from the covenant of faith... and The Law can testify about the covenant of faith. For example:

[Deu 30:6 NASB] 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

[Deu 30:11-16, 19 NASB] 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

[Rom 10:4-10 NASB] 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.​

I see your points. No problem. What I was doing was to show that there is a definite plan and order in the covenants, rather than a haphazard arrangement built on trial and error.

The Apostles to the Hebrews links Abraham and Christ through faith. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness, and so we believe on Christ so it is counted for us as righteousness. It shows that the grace and mercy of God is always extended to those in the Old Testament who had the faith of Abraham and looked to the Messiah to come. We are saved by grace and mercy because we have the faith of Abraham and look to the Messiah who gave Himself for us.

 

[ralliann]

I disagree. The Abrahamic covenant was always meant to be an everlasting covenant to be inherited by all of Abraham's seed (or descendants).

[Gen 15:5-6 NASB] 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants [seed, singular] be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Gen 17:4-10 NASB 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants [seed, singular] after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants [seed, singlular] after you. 8 "I will give to you and to your descendants [seed, singular] after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." 9 God said further to Abraham, "Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants [seed, singular] after you throughout their generations. 10 "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants [seed, singular] after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.

[Gal 3:6-9 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

[Rom 4:11-17 NASB] 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.​

What you don't realize is that the New Covenant is the Abrahamic covenant.

[Gal 3:16 NASB] 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.​

Go back to Genesis 15-17 and whenever it uses the term (in the King James) "Seed"... it is singular and as Gal 3:16 says, it means God is talking about Jesus Christ. More modern translations translate the "Seed, singular" as "descendants." That Abrahamic covenant WAS God's covenant with Jesus Christ. The Abrahamic covenant is the "covenant of faith."

[Gal 3:14-17 NASB] 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is [only] a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.​

I humbly disagree. Here is why:

[Rom 4:9-17 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

[Gal 4:22-28 NASB] 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these [women] are two covenants: one [proceeding] from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

[Rom 2:28-29 NASB] 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.​

The Abrahamic covenant IS the covenant of faith... it IS the covenant God makes with Christ. It was made to to Abraham and to his seed (singular), meaning Christ. Having just said the "seed" (singular) that the promise was made to was Christ in Gal 3:16, it says:

[Gal 3:18-19 NASB] 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. 19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.​

The "seed to whom the promise had been made" was Christ. This is interesting... it means the covenant of faith pre-dates the covenant of The Law. Look up above in Galatians 3:17; it says the law came 430 years after the covenant of faith was ratified, and that once ratified it can no longer have conditions added to it. This means the covenant of faith was given when The Law didn't exist. It is truly apart from The Law. What it also means is that The Law has never existed apart from the covenant of faith... and The Law can testify about the covenant of faith. For example:

[Deu 30:6 NASB] 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

[Deu 30:11-16, 19 NASB] 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

[Rom 10:4-10 NASB] 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.​

46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.
53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;
55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

 

[Davy]

So . . . is that a 'yes,' the Abrahamic Covenant is . . . in a sense . . . a Christian covenant?

Yes, it was actually God's Promised Salvation through His Son's death and resurrection, i.e., the New Covenant in Christ's Blood. Jesus simply had not yet been born in the flesh to fulfill it back in Abraham's day. But Abraham knew, which is why Jesus showed in John 8 when He said Abraham saw His day, and rejoiced.

So early on, The Gospel of Jesus Christ was known in Old Testament times by a few, Abraham being just one of them. Enoch knew, because in Jude 14 we are shown a prophecy about Jesus coming with ten thousands of His saints as a quote from Enoch (the 7th from the man Adam).

 

[ralliann]

Yes, it was actually God's Promised Salvation through His Son's death and resurrection, i.e., the New Covenant in Christ's Blood. Jesus simply had not yet been born in the flesh to fulfill it back in Abraham's day. But Abraham knew, which is why Jesus showed in John 8 when He said Abraham saw His day, and rejoiced.

Prophetic revelation yo Abraham?
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: {Of: or, To }
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
Ge 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

So early on, The Gospel of Jesus Christ was known in Old Testament times by a few, Abraham being just one of them. Enoch knew, because in Jude 14 we are shown a prophecy about Jesus coming with ten thousands of His saints as a quote from Enoch (the 7th from the man Adam).

this is good

 

[Gup20]

Yes, it was actually God's Promised Salvation through His Son's death and resurrection, i.e., the New Covenant in Christ's Blood. Jesus simply had not yet been born in the flesh to fulfill it back in Abraham's day. But Abraham knew, which is why Jesus showed in John 8 when He said Abraham saw His day, and rejoiced.

So early on, The Gospel of Jesus Christ was known in Old Testament times by a few, Abraham being just one of them. Enoch knew, because in Jude 14 we are shown a prophecy about Jesus coming with ten thousands of His saints as a quote from Enoch (the 7th from the man Adam).

Yet Enoch is not called "the father of all who believe." Abraham was the first made righteous for his faith in the gospel, and then God promised that all of his descendants would inherit that righteousness. Jesus came, lived a sinless life and proved himself righteous. He gave up that righteousness in a redemptive exchange with Abraham. This is how the righteousness of one man can multiple to the many... through inheritance. All who are descended from Abraham inherit the righteousness he was given. But it's not just those who are legally and physically descended from him who inherit that promise... but also those who have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had.

[Gal 3:6-9, 16, 29 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. ... 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

[Rom 4:11-18 NASB] 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. 18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR SEED BE."​

So while there may have been those who believed the gospel before Abraham, even those are considered children of Abraham according to the promise so that they would be inheritors of the righteousness given to Abraham.

 

[Davy]

Yet Enoch is not called "the father of all who believe."

I never said he was called that. Read the quote in Jude 1:14-15 about Enoch prophesying about Christ's future 2nd coming. That's a no brainer that shows Enoch knew about Jesus Christ and The Gospel.

Abraham was the first made righteous for his faith in the gospel, and then God promised that all of his descendants would inherit that righteousness.

That's a bit of a reach. God didn't promise all of Abraham's children would believe The Gospel. The sons of Ishmael are some of Abraham's children, and the majority of them today still... reject Christ Jesus as their Saviour, and I haven't even got to the unbelieving Jews yet.

Rom 11:23
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
KJV

IF they continue in unbelief, then they are 'cut off'.

NONE inherit the blessing of Abraham just based on birth! That is a false belief. God's Salvation is ONLY for those who believe, as written...

Gal 3:21-22
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
KJV

 

[Gup20]

I never said he was called that. Read the quote in Jude 1:14-15 about Enoch prophesying about Christ's future 2nd coming. That's a no brainer that shows Enoch knew about Jesus Christ and The Gospel.

I wasn't saying Enoch didn't know about the gospel... I am saying that the Bible doesn't call Enoch the "father of all who believe" because the covenant of faith was not given to Enoch, it was given to Abraham.

That's a bit of a reach. God didn't promise all of Abraham's children would believe The Gospel. The sons of Ishmael are some of Abraham's children, and the majority of them today still... reject Christ Jesus as their Saviour, and I haven't even got to the unbelieving Jews yet.

Rom 11:23
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
KJV

IF they continue in unbelief, then they are 'cut off'.

NONE inherit the blessing of Abraham just based on birth! That is a false belief. God's Salvation is ONLY for those who believe, as written...

Gal 3:21-22
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
KJV

I didn't say all of Abraham's children would believe. I said all of Abraham's children inherit righteousness. Some of Abraham's descendants are physical descendants. However, you can become an adopted descendant of Abraham if you choose to have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had.

Physical descendants (Jews) who reject Jesus are like heirs who reject their inheritance.

[Gal 3:16 NASB] 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

[Gen 15:5-6 KJV] 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.​

Whom do you think God was talking about in Genesis 15:5 when He said "so shall thy Seed be?" He was talking about Jesus according to Galatians 3:16. So God told Abraham something about Jesus and when Abraham believed Him, he was made righteous. So it is not a stretch to say that Abraham believed the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Gal 3:6-9 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. ... 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."​

Paul just got done saying in Galatians 1 that there is only 1 gospel, and that anyone preaching another gospel should be accursed. Then he says God preached that gospel to Abraham. I don't think it's a stretch whatsoever to say that Abraham believed the gospel... I think it's spelled out pretty plainly by Paul.

Further, that those who have the same faith in the gospel that Abraham had are considered descendants of Abraham, and therefore heirs according to the promise.

Haven't you ever wondered WHY faith mattered? Why is faith what saves? Does God need us to believe in Him? No. It is because doing what Abraham did to be made righteous qualifies us as his descendants. And his descendants inherit the righteousness he was given.

[Rom 4:9, 11-13, 16-17 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." ... 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.​

 

[Davy]

I wasn't saying Enoch didn't know about the gospel... I am saying that the Bible doesn't call Enoch the "father of all who believe" because the covenant of faith was not given to Enoch, it was given to Abraham.

Well, I didn't say any of those things either, so I don't know what in the world you're driving at with that.

I didn't say all of Abraham's children would believe. I said all of Abraham's children inherit righteousness. Some of Abraham's descendants are physical descendants. However, you can become an adopted descendant of Abraham if you choose to have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had.

You just contradicted yourself within that same paragraph. Righteousness is NOT inherited. It is NOT of the law. Righteousness is 'accounted' by God through Faith on the Promise. Another CANNOT believe for us. Only 'when' each person believes The Gospel Promise is the same righteousness accounted to Abraham accounted to that person. Abraham simply represented the first to believe God's Promise. That is why those who also believe like Abraham are joint-heirs according to the Promise.

Physical descendants (Jews) who reject Jesus are like heirs who reject their inheritance.

You still have things mixed up. The inheritance Paul speaks of in Galatians 3 is by Faith, not birth. To become an 'heir' per Galatians 3:29 one MUST first believe on Jesus of Nazareth as God's Promised Saviour. Then the literal blessings God gave Abraham, called The Birthright, then follow. God's Birthright blessings went to Abraham first, then passed to Isaac, then to Jacob whom God gave the new name Israel to represent The Gospel, and then the Birthright passed to Joseph who was separated from his brethren but exalted in Egypt apart from his brethren because he was God's chosen,...

... and then the Birthright wound upon Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, where it still is to this day (1 Chronicles 5:1-2). The royal sceptre rule stayed with the tribe of Judah, where it still is today also, and will remain until Christ returns (Genesis 49:10). The majority of the blessings given through God's Birthright first through Abraham, are not manifest in the nation of Israel in the middle east today. They are manifest in the western Christian nations of history. God's blessings to Abraham are in connection with Faith on The Gospel of Jesus Christ, not blood birth. The unbelieving Jews rejected that Faith and thus its connection with God's Birthright since they rejected Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ.

In the prophet Jeremiah's day, God rent the kingdom from the rebellious house of Judah, the house of David upon a throne ending in Jerusalem, even to this day. Only the 1 Kings 11 prophecy that God promised He would always leave one tribe in Jerusalem for David's sake is fulfilled there today. The majority of the children of Israel are still scattered in the nations today and have not returned, and I have no doubt the majority of them in the Christian west make up much of Christ's Church, as many as the stars of the sky, and sands of the sea they are. The difference is that most of lost Israel today think they are Gentiles, God causing them to lose their heritage as the ten tribes of Israel. Only those of the house of Judah still know their Israelite heritage and many of these also scattered among the ten lost tribes are Christian converts too.

 

[Gup20]

You just contradicted yourself within that same paragraph. Righteousness is NOT inherited. It is NOT of the law. Righteousness is 'accounted' by God through Faith on the Promise. Another CANNOT believe for us. Only 'when' each person believes The Gospel Promise is the same righteousness accounted to Abraham accounted to that person. Abraham simply represented the first to believe God's Promise. That is why those who also believe like Abraham are joint-heirs according to the Promise.

[Rom 4:16-18 NASB] 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. 18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS (SEED) BE."

[Gen 15:5-6 NASB] 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

[Gen 17:4-7 NASB] 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

[Isa 54:1 NASB] 1 "Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no [child;] Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one [will be] more numerous Than the sons of the married woman," says the LORD.​

I think it's clear that God intends to honor this promise to both groups.... this is why there are 24 elders in Revelation -- 12 tribes of Israel and 12 disciples of Jesus.

You still have things mixed up. The inheritance Paul speaks of in Galatians 3 is by Faith, not birth. To become an 'heir' per Galatians 3:29 one MUST first believe on Jesus of Nazareth as God's Promised Saviour. Then the literal blessings God gave Abraham, called The Birthright, then follow. God's Birthright blessings went to Abraham first, then passed to Isaac, then to Jacob whom God gave the new name Israel to represent The Gospel, and then the Birthright passed to Joseph who was separated from his brethren but exalted in Egypt apart from his brethren because he was God's chosen,...

... and then the Birthright wound upon Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, where it still is to this day (1 Chronicles 5:1-2). The royal sceptre rule stayed with the tribe of Judah, where it still is today also, and will remain until Christ returns (Genesis 49:10). The majority of the blessings given through God's Birthright first through Abraham, are not manifest in the nation of Israel in the middle east today. They are manifest in the western Christian nations of history. God's blessings to Abraham are in connection with Faith on The Gospel of Jesus Christ, not blood birth. The unbelieving Jews rejected that Faith and thus its connection with God's Birthright since they rejected Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ.

In the prophet Jeremiah's day, God rent the kingdom from the rebellious house of Judah, the house of David upon a throne ending in Jerusalem, even to this day. Only the 1 Kings 11 prophecy that God promised He would always leave one tribe in Jerusalem for David's sake is fulfilled there today. The majority of the children of Israel are still scattered in the nations today and have not returned, and I have no doubt the majority of them in the Christian west make up much of Christ's Church, as many as the stars of the sky, and sands of the sea they are. The difference is that most of lost Israel today think they are Gentiles, God causing them to lose their heritage as the ten tribes of Israel. Only those of the house of Judah still know their Israelite heritage and many of these also scattered among the ten lost tribes are Christian converts too.

[Rev 13:8 NASB] 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, [everyone] whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

[Rev 20:15 NASB] 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

So we see that people's who's names are NOT WRITTEN in the lambs book of life are not qualified.

David prophesied about Jesus:

[Psa 69:21, 28 NASB] 21 They also gave me gall for my food And for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. ... 28 May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
35 For God will save Zion and build the cities of Judah, That they may dwell there and possess it. 36 The descendants of His servants will inherit it, And those who love His name will dwell in it.​

This prayer is Jesus' prayer... praying from the cross. He prays to "blot their names out" of the book of life... the ones who were responsible for crucifying him (the Jews responsible). Their names have to be written in it already to be blotted out... clearly they didn't already believe, they hated Him. The Jews who do not believe in Jesus have their names (which were already written because they are descendants of Abraham) blotted out.

 

[Davy]

[Rom 4:16-18 NASB] 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. 18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS (SEED) BE."
​

I can see you are out to deceive my brethren here, for it's not a mistake that you intentionally left out the previous Romans 4 verses by Apostle Paul, especially this one...

Rom 4:14
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
KJV

Your belief is salvation according to the law, which makes Faith void!

None are saved because of birth! ALL must believe The Gospel of Jesus Christ to be saved, and that includes those born of Israel especially.

​

 

[Gup20]

I can see you are out to deceive my brethren here, for it's not a mistake that you intentionally left out the previous Romans 4 verses by Apostle Paul, especially this one...

Rom 4:14
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
KJV

Your belief is salvation according to the law, which makes Faith void!

None are saved because of birth! ALL must believe The Gospel of Jesus Christ to be saved, and that includes those born of Israel especially.

​

And I see you didn’t read what I wrote:

“The Jews who do not believe in Jesus have their names blotted out.”

Unlike Gentile unbelievers who’s names were never written, Jewish unbelievers are written, but blotted out for unbelief.

Romans 11:20-21 (NASB) 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.​

 

[Davy]

And I see you didn’t read what I wrote:

“The Jews who do not believe in Jesus have their names blotted out.”

Unlike Gentile unbelievers who’s names were never written, Jewish unbelievers are written, but blotted out for unbelief.

Romans 11:20-21 (NASB) 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.​

I can also clearly see that you have not read much of The New Testament Scriptures...

Paul speaking to Gentile believers on Christ Jesus:

Eph 1:2-12
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In Whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace;
8 Wherein He hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him:
11 In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who worketh all things after the counsel of His Own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.
KJV

What was that false idea you were saying that only Jews originally had their names written in the book of life?

You obviously don't understand about the 3 world earth ages, and that God's elect of the Gentiles were also chosen before the foundation of this present world. If you had read enough of The New Testament WITHOUT the false traditions of Judaism influencing your reading, then you might have known this. If you stay on the false course you are on, with applying a Jewish bent on God's Plan of Salvation, then you'll never understand what Paul said here:

Gal 3:27-29
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

 

[Gup20]

I can also clearly see that you have not read much of The New Testament Scriptures...

John 13:35 (NASB)
“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Paul speaking to Gentile believers on Christ Jesus:

Eph 1:2-12
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In Whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace;
8 Wherein He hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him:
11 In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who worketh all things after the counsel of His Own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.
KJV

What was that false idea you were saying that only Jews originally had their names written in the book of life?

Whom do they inherit this inheritance from? How are they chosen?
Deuteronomy 7:6-9 (NASB) 6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. 7 "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, 8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9 "Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

John 6:64-65 (NASB) 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

You obviously don't understand about the 3 world earth ages, and that God's elect of the Gentiles were also chosen before the foundation of this present world. If you had read enough of The New Testament WITHOUT the false traditions of Judaism influencing your reading, then you might have known this. If you stay on the false course you are on, with applying a Jewish bent on God's Plan of Salvation, then you'll never understand what Paul said here:

Gal 3:27-29
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

Three earth ages is something you read in J.R.R. Tolkien novel... not any passage in scripture.

2000 years from Adam to Abraham
2000 years from Abraham to Jesus
2000 years from Jesus till now

Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Righteousness based on faith comes through Jesus Christ and Gods covenant with Abraham the Gentile.

Romans 4:9-12 (NASB) 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

The covenant of righteousness by faith came 430 years before the law, and so it is apart from the law.

Galatians 3:14-18 (NASB) 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

So the answer to the question from whom does the inheritance come for obtaining the promise of the spirit by faith is Abraham who is the spiritual father of us all.

The covenant of faith was ratified 430 years before the law was given, so the law does not add to the covenant of Faith God made with Abraham.

 

[Davy]

John 13:35 (NASB)
“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”


Whom do they inherit this inheritance from? How are they chosen?
Deuteronomy 7:6-9 (NASB) 6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. 7 "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, 8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9 "Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

If you're trying to point to Jews being righteous while Gentiles haven't been, then you've got a lot of catching up to do about Jewish rebellion against God, even the history of Judah sacrificing their children in the fire from idol worship (Jer.7;19). Only Jesus can purify those sins away through Faith on Him, something the law could never do.

Three earth ages is something you read in J.R.R. Tolkien novel... not any passage in scripture.

As I suspected, you haven't really studied enough of The New Testament Scriptures to know what I was talking about. See 2 Peter 3 about (1) "the world that then was", and (2) "the heavens and the earth, which are now", and (3) "new heavens and a new earth".

 

[Gup20]

If you're trying to point to Jews being righteous while Gentiles haven't been...

Nope, I'm not doing that.

As I suspected, you haven't really studied enough of The New Testament Scriptures to know what I was talking about. See 2 Peter 3 about (1) "the world that then was", and (2) "the heavens and the earth, which are now", and (3) "new heavens and a new earth".

You might prefer to discuss that topic, but it isn't salient to the discussion on Abraham we're having in any way.

1) Was Abraham yet born in "the world that then was?" How does he relate to it? If there is no relation, then it's not relevant to this discussion.
2) What link to the Abrahamic covenant do you see in 2Peter 3?
3) Does 'the world that was' or 'the heavens and the earth which now are' or the 'new heavens and a new earth' factually demonstrate one or or the other whether the Abrahamic covenant was a Jewish covenant or a Christian covenant?

The only scripture in 2nd Peter 3 which even remotely relates to the topic is this:

[2Pe 3:13 NASB] 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.​

From this, what can you tell us about Abraham, covenants, circumcision, or whether or not Abraham's covenant was Jewish or Christian?

If it was your intention to wow me with random, irrelevant facts from the Bible... consider me bewildered with amazement.

Random fact: God CANNOT lie. The scripture doesn't say He DOES NOT lie, but rather that He CANNOT lie. Why is it impossible for God to lie?

 

[Davy]

Nope, I'm not doing that.


You might prefer to discuss that topic, but it isn't salient to the discussion on Abraham we're having in any way.

1) Was Abraham yet born in "the world that then was?" How does he relate to it? If there is no relation, then it's not relevant to this discussion.
2) What link to the Abrahamic covenant do you see in 2Peter 3?
3) Does 'the world that was' or 'the heavens and the earth which now are' or the 'new heavens and a new earth' factually demonstrate one or or the other whether the Abrahamic covenant was a Jewish covenant or a Christian covenant?

The only scripture in 2nd Peter 3 which even remotely relates to the topic is this:

[2Pe 3:13 NASB] 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.​

From this, what can you tell us about Abraham, covenants, circumcision, or whether or not Abraham's covenant was Jewish or Christian?

If it was your intention to wow me with random, irrelevant facts from the Bible... consider me bewildered with amazement.

Random fact: God CANNOT lie. The scripture doesn't say He DOES NOT lie, but rather that He CANNOT lie. Why is it impossible for God to lie?

All I've done is point out your 'irrational' false statements, like...

Three earth ages is something you read in J.R.R. Tolkien novel... not any passage in scripture.

Unlike Gentile unbelievers who’s names were never written, Jewish unbelievers are written, but blotted out for unbelief.

... and then tried to point you in the direction to learn. But since you think you already know everything, oh well... this conversation is over.

 

[Gup20]

All I've done is point out your 'irrational' false statements, like...

... and then tried to point you in the direction to learn. But since you think you already know everything, oh well... this conversation is over.

Your motivation appears to be have pride. Perhaps that is the cause of your failure.

Humbly, I would ask you to answer the challenge I have given you - what relevance does your three ages have on the topic of this thread?

And if you do not wish to discuss this topic, what is the answer to the irrelevant question I asked you? I'm giving you ample opportunity to show your knowledge of the scripture and impress everyone.

 

[Davy]

Your motivation appears to be have pride. Perhaps that is the cause of your failure.

Humbly, I would ask you to answer the challenge I have given you - what relevance does your three ages have on the topic of this thread?

And if you do not wish to discuss this topic, what is the answer to the irrelevant question I asked you? I'm giving you ample opportunity to show your knowledge of the scripture and impress everyone.

Congratulations, you just made my Ignore List.

 

[Gup20]

Congratulations, you just made my Ignore List.

John 13:35 (NASB)
“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

By this shall all men know that you are my disciples... when you add people to your ignore list.

 

[ralliann]

John 13:35 (NASB)
“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”


Whom do they inherit this inheritance from? How are they chosen?
Deuteronomy 7:6-9 (NASB) 6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. 7 "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, 8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9 "Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

John 6:64-65 (NASB) 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."


Three earth ages is something you read in J.R.R. Tolkien novel... not any passage in scripture.

2000 years from Adam to Abraham
2000 years from Abraham to Jesus
2000 years from Jesus till now

Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Righteousness based on faith comes through Jesus Christ and Gods covenant with Abraham the Gentile.

Romans 4:9-12 (NASB) 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

The covenant of righteousness by faith came 430 years before the law, and so it is apart from the law.

Galatians 3:14-18 (NASB) 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

So the answer to the question from whom does the inheritance come for obtaining the promise of the spirit by faith is Abraham who is the spiritual father of us all.

The covenant of faith was ratified 430 years before the law was given, so the law does not add to the covenant of Faith God made with Abraham.

2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.