Covenant with Abraham - In Essence, a Christian Covenant?

[Gup20]

You have extracted this command from the text providing the details of the Law Covenant of Moses. While there was certainly a gracious element in the Mosaic Covenant, it seems a stretch to cite this as THE declaration of the gospel command.

I think you missed the passage from Romans 10:

[Rom 10:5-11 NASB] 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
​

Paul quotes extensively from Deuteronomy 30 saying that it is about the covenant of faith, not about the covenant of The Law. Plus Deuteronomy 30:6 talks about "circumcision of the heart" so the context is clearly regarding the covenant of faith. So we know without the doubt that Deuteronomy 30 is regarding the covenant of faith, not regarding the law.

[Rom 3:20-22 NASB] 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law [comes] the knowledge of sin. 21 But now apart from the Law [the] righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even [the] righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;​

The Law bears witness to the covenant of faith, even though the covenant of faith is apart from the law. It is easy to see how this is possible:

[Gal 3:14-18 NASB] 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is [only] a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
​

The covenant of the Law was given to Moses 430 years AFTER God ratified the covenant of faith with Abraham. Once ratified (as it was in Genesis 15) a covenant can no longer have conditions added. The Law, which came 430 years later to Moses didn't modify or add conditions to the covenant of faith. Therefore, the covenant of faith exists APART FROM and OUTSIDE OF The Law, but the law has never existed with the covenant of faith. Therefore, The Law is a witness to tell us about the covenant of faith.

[Rom 4:9-14 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;​

We know God preached the gospel to Abraham, and when Abraham believed the gospel, he was made righteous.

[Gal 3:6-9 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.​

 

[Gup20]

Please point to the post number where I defend faith as works.

Post 126 you say: "you seem to misunderstand that “Believe” means obey."
Post 129 you concluded that listening to the gospel means to "Do what is commanded."

There is a law of faith; a principle by which faith is able to function or operate to produce the intended divine result.


Just like there is a law of gravity, there is a law of faith.


When God speaks to us, moves upon us, inspires us, we receive faith.

No where in scripture does it say that God gives us faith for salvation.

When God calls us to do something like repent, we must obey the command to repent of we remain lost.


Do you want me to define what repent means?




JLB

Most who are called do not repent.

[Mat 22:14 NASB] 14 "For many are called, but few [are] chosen."​

We can choose to listen and accept the call, but we are not magically compelled to do so, in fact most do not. Just because God calls doesn't mean we listen. The call is not giving faith to making someone faithful... it is an offer. A person then has to CHOOSE whether or not to listen to or heed the call.

And faith is of the heart, not in external service.

 

[JLB777]

Post 129 you concluded that listening to the gospel means to "Do what is commanded."

I concluded that obeying the Gospel means doing what the Gospel commands, which is Repent.

You seem to have built your theology on twisting the scriptures and the words of those who see through your game.



JLB

 

[Gup20]

I concluded that obeying the Gospel means doing what the Gospel commands, which is Repent.

You seem to have built your theology on twisting the scriptures and the words of those who see through your game.



JLB

You claimed that to "believe" means to "obey" the gospel. So I pointed out the scriptures that say Abraham believed God when He told him the gospel in the phrase "all nations would be blessed in him" and asked where the obedience was in that context. You could provide none (and indeed it makes no sense to obey the statement that "all nations will be blessed in you"). I also pointed out that the primary meaning of the Greek word for believe is "listen" or "hearken" and the secondary meaning is "obey." Further, I went on to show you how the context of Romans 10 demonstrates that listen was contextually a more accurate meaning than obey, considering the context was literally about not obtaining salvation through works of the law, but rather the righteousness which comes by faith in the gospel.

Friend, I'm not twisting scripture, I'm following closely the scripture and it's intended meaning. Furthermore, my theology is not built upon anything said by any man... I derived it myself from reading the Word. I developed it long before our interaction, to be sure, so your claim that I have built this theology upon twisting your words is dubious at best.

 

[JLB777]

So I pointed out the scriptures that say Abraham believed God when He told him the gospel in the phrase "all nations would be blessed in him" and asked where the obedience was in that context.

Here is the scripture where the Lord says to Abraham..."all nations would be blessed in him"




Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him,
Genesis 12:1-4


This foreshadowed the Gospel in the life of Abraham, as being justified by faith, the obedience of faith.


Here the Lord called Abraham to go out...

Here we see Abraham obeyed the Lord, from Whom he received faith.

As it s written -

• So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him,

Hebrews says it this way -


By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


Paul says it this way -


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8



All three of these scriptures are about the same incident, and portray the obedience of faith.


If Abraham doesn’t obey and get out of his country, and family, to follow the Lord, then there will be no justification by faith.




JLB

 

[Gup20]

Here is the scripture where the Lord says to Abraham..."all nations would be blessed in him"




Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him,
Genesis 12:1-4


This foreshadowed the Gospel in the life of Abraham, as being justified by faith, the obedience of faith.

Thus far, I can accept your interpretation, though to be clear, Paul doesn't single out the command to get out of his country as defining the gospel message, but the part about all of the families of the earth being blessed in Abraham (the implication being through his descendants - through Jesus). It is an equally valid argument to say that this had more to do with the fact that God was preaching to Abraham about Jesus Christ in that phrase than commanding him to get out of his country because "Get out of your country" wasn't the gospel... the gospel was that "in Abraham, all the nations (families) of the earth would be blessed."

Here the Lord called Abraham to go out...

Here we see Abraham obeyed the Lord, from Whom he received faith.

At no time did Abraham receive faith from God. He received the gospel, not faith.

[Rom 1:16 NASB] 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

[Rom 10:16-17 NASB] 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17 So faith [comes] from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

Faith is how you qualify for the salvation which comes through the gospel, but while the gospel comes by the word of God, faith originates in "everyone" after listening or hearing.

The other example you didn't yet address is when Abraham is made righteous for his belief:

[Gen 15:5-6 NASB] 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.​

This was a vision which contained no commands and required no actions. This interaction resulted directly in Abraham being made righteous.

 

[JLB777]

At no time did Abraham receive faith from God. He received the gospel, not faith.

When God spoke to Abraham he received faith.

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17


When Abraham obeyed the word by which he received faith, then he was justified.


By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8




JLB

 

[Gup20]

When God spoke to Abraham he received faith.

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

[1Co 15:1-2 NASB] 1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

[2Co 11:4 NASB] 4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear [this] beautifully.​

You do not receive faith. You receive the gospel. Based on whether or not you choose to accept the gospel, you decide to "listen" or "hearken" or "believe" for yourself. We hear messages all day from all places... we choose whether or not to believe them. If the gospel (the message itself) was faith, then giving someone the gospel would be giving them faith. But we know that many who hear the gospel do not believe it or accept it. Belief, listening, hearkening is an act of the hearer's will... therefore faith comes from the believer. Certainly what we put our faith in - the gospel - comes from God... but the faith itself does not come from God.

When Abraham obeyed the word by which he received faith, then he was justified.

But not before God. Before God he wasn't justified as righteous until he used his will to believe the statement "So shall your seed (Jesus) be." (referring to how many stars there were in the heavens)

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8
JLB

Yet, he did not obtain righteousness for traveling (in Genesis 12) ... he received the very moment he believed (accepted, received, listened to) the gospel of Jesus Christ(Gen 15:5-6, Gal 3:6-9, 16). This was also prior to circumcision.

 

[JLB777]

You do not receive faith.

We receive faith for salvation when we hear the Gospel preached by those whom God has sent.

Here is the context -



But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:6-17




JLB

 

[Gup20]

We receive faith for salvation when we hear the Gospel preached by those whom God has sent.

Here is the context -



But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:6-17




JLB

When you say "we receive faith" you have reduced the phrase "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" to:

"Faith comes by the Word of God."​

That isn't the intended meaning, otherwise that is what it would have said. Notice it doesn't say "faith comes by preaching the word of God." Notice it doesn't say "faith comes by speaking the word of God."

If faith came by preaching or speaking the faith would be coming FROM the speaker or preacher. But faith comes by hearing... so faith comes FROM the hearer. This is why the distinction is made that Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God rather than saying faith comes by the word of God.

The Gospel comes from God. Faith originates in the hearer.

[Rom 8:16 NASB] 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

[Deu 30:19 NASB] 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Salvation is a synergy between heaven (the holy spirit) and earth (our spirit) baring witness (testifying) together.

 

[ralliann]

When you say "we receive faith" you have reduced the phrase "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" to:

"Faith comes by the Word of God."​

That isn't the intended meaning, otherwise that is what it would have said. Notice it doesn't say "faith comes by preaching the word of God." Notice it doesn't say "faith comes by speaking the word of God."

If faith came by preaching or speaking the faith would be coming FROM the speaker or preacher. But faith comes by hearing... so faith comes FROM the hearer.

That doesn't sound right, because hearing comes by the word of God.

This is why the distinction is made that Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God rather than saying faith comes by the word of God.

Maybe I am missing what you are saying but hearing comes by the word of God, not the hearer.
Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

​

 

[ralliann]

When you say "we receive faith" you have reduced the phrase "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" to:

"Faith comes by the Word of God."​

That isn't the intended meaning, otherwise that is what it would have said. Notice it doesn't say "faith comes by preaching the word of God." Notice it doesn't say "faith comes by speaking the word of God."

If faith came by preaching or speaking the faith would be coming FROM the speaker or preacher. But faith comes by hearing... so faith comes FROM the hearer.

That doesn't sound right, because hearing comes by the word of God.

This is why the distinction is made that Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God rather than saying faith comes by the word of God.

Maybe I am missing what you are saying but hearing comes by the word of God, not the hearer.
Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

And a preacher cant preach unless he is sent...

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

​

 

[JLB777]

You do not receive faith. You receive the gospel.

By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. Hebrews 11:3


The origin of faith comes from God.


Faith comes to man when God speaks to him.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

Faith is activated and made complete, when we do what God tells us to do.

Obedience is how we walk in the righteousness of faith.


“By faith” simple means God told us to do something and we obeyed Him.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:21-22


Our obedience to what God speaks to us, by which we receive, is how faith is made complete, and able to function to produce the intended divine result.

What we also receive from God when He speaks to us is grace, the ability to do what He says, that is beyond our own ability.

Grace is the Holy Spirit; The Spirit of grace.


Paul calls this the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



JLB

 

[Gup20]

That doesn't sound right, because hearing comes by the word of God.

Maybe I am missing what you are saying but hearing comes by the word of God, not the hearer.
Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

And a preacher cant preach unless he is sent...

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

​

We were talking about the source of faith, not the source of hearing. JLB777 said we receive faith from God. However, this is scripturally unsupported. Faith comes by the hearer. Hearing comes by the word of God. The Gospel originated from God ... faith originates in the hearer.

The Eph 2:8 passage is often the mantra of those that say "faith is a gift from God." However, this is a poor interpretation of that verse.

The subject / predicate of the verse is you have been saved. The phrases by grace and through faith are supporting clauses of the primary subject. So the "it" in the phrase "it is the gift of God" refers to the primary subject and predicate, not the supporting clauses. The "it" is that you are saved.

By grace you are saved through faith. [Your salvation] is the gift of God.
​

The reason this is important is because of the debate on Calvinism. Calvinism seeks to absolve people of the choice God commands them to make by saying God makes the choice for them. If faith is "given" to those who believe, then those people do not need to make the choice. If faith originates in the chooser, then we are responsible to make the choice.

[Deu 30:1, 6, 11-16, 19 NASB] 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live (Matt 22:37). ... 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God (Matt 22:37), to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Before you think that this is "The Law" ... Paul sets the record straight in Romans 10:

[Rom 10:3-11, 14-17 NASB] 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." ... 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17 So faith [comes] from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

The very context of "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" is the Deuteronomy 30 quote where God commands us to love him by making the choice he has set before us. Calvinism seeks to absolve man of that choice. This is the basis of the notion that "faith is a gift" from God.

​

 

[ralliann]

We were talking about the source of faith, not the source of hearing. JLB777 said we receive faith from God. However, this is scripturally unsupported. Faith comes by the hearer. Hearing comes by the word of God. The Gospel originated from God ... faith originates in the hearer.

The Eph 2:8 passage is often the mantra of those that say "faith is a gift from God." However, this is a poor interpretation of that verse.

The subject / predicate of the verse is you have been saved. The phrases by grace and through faith are supporting clauses of the primary subject. So the "it" in the phrase "it is the gift of God" refers to the primary subject and predicate, not the supporting clauses. The "it" is that you are saved.

By grace you are saved through faith. [Your salvation] is the gift of God.
​

The reason this is important is because of the debate on Calvinism. Calvinism seeks to absolve people of the choice God commands them to make by saying God makes the choice for them. If faith is "given" to those who believe, then those people do not need to make the choice. If faith originates in the chooser, then we are responsible to make the choice.

[Deu 30:1, 6, 11-16, 19 NASB] 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live (Matt 22:37). ... 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God (Matt 22:37), to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Before you think that this is "The Law" ... Paul sets the record straight in Romans 10:

[Rom 10:3-11, 14-17 NASB] 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." ... 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17 So faith [comes] from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

The very context of "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" is the Deuteronomy 30 quote where God commands us to love him by making the choice he has set before us. Calvinism seeks to absolve man of that choice. This is the basis of the notion that "faith is a gift" from God.

​

I am still not convinced what you say is right, or at least the way you are stating things. I think there might be a distinction between making a choice and faith, which distinction I am not seeing from you.
We see in john 3 this notion..
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

The above seems to speak of what a man loves in his heart. So faith is a choice, and faithlessness is also a choice based upon desires in the heart. Which Genesis also seems to indicate as well.

Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. {every … : or, the whole imagination: the Hebrew word signifieth not only the imagination, but also the purposes and desires } {continually: Heb. every day }

So choice originates in the hearer, but faith comes from God.

I do not know how this idea applies to calvinism or not.

​

 

[Gup20]

I am still not convinced what you say is right, or at least the way you are stating things. I think there might be a distinction between making a choice and faith. We see in john 3 this notion..
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

The above seems to speak of what a man loves in his heart. So faith is a choice based upon desires in their heart. Which Genesis also seems to indicate as well.

Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. {every … : or, the whole imagination: the Hebrew word signifieth not only the imagination, but also the purposes and desires } {continually: Heb. every day }
So choice originates in the hearer, but faith comes from God.

I do not know how this idea applies to calvinism or not.

In John 3, it says ..."he that believeth not is condemned already - and this is the condemnation that men loved darkness..." I think you've made my point for me here. The choice to love light or love darkness comes from the human heart. These men loved darkness and feared death or punishment and so chose the darkness over the light.

[Rom 10:10 NASB] 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

[Heb 2:14-16 NASB] 14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

[Jhn 8:31-34 NASB] 31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, [then] you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." 33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?" 34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

[1Jo 4:18 NASB] 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.​

Fear is the antithesis of love and faith. In fact, fear is just faith in death. Both fear and faith originate in the human heart.

 

[ralliann]

In John 3, it says ..."he that believeth not is condemned already - and this is the condemnation that men loved darkness..." I think you've made my point for me here. The choice to love light or love darkness comes from the human heart. These men loved darkness and feared death or punishment and so chose the darkness over the light.

The only thing I am having an issue with is making a distinction between faith and choice. It seems to me you are making them the same. I do not think they are.
Men choosing faith, or not.
There is this as well.....
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

​

 

[Gup20]

The only thing I am having an issue with is making a distinction between faith and choice. It seems to me you are making them the same. I do not think they are.
Men choosing faith, or not.
There is this as well.....
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

​

Do you think men can choose life or death, blessing or cursing for themselves?

[Deu 30:1, 15, 19 NASB] 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Three times in Deu 30, God commands man to make the choice between life and death. What does scripture say of this choice God sets before man:

[Deu 30:11-12 NASB] 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'​

The choice for life or death, blessing or cursing is not made in heaven. It is not too difficult for us, it is not out of our reach to make the choice. We are not too depraved to make the choice.

Regarding this very choice, Paul says:

[Rom 10:6, 8 NASB] 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), ... 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,​

I think God can (and does) influence us in our decision making (that's the purpose of all scripture, really), but the decision is ours to make. Otherwise, why tell us anything through scripture or the prophets if he can just puppeteer us around and cause us to do or think whatever He wants.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The Abrahamic Covenant was made between God and Abraham. It did not involved anyone else.
The Mosaic Covenant, did not replace the Abrahamic Covenant, but it was a new one between God and Israel. The terms of that Covenant are listed mainly in Deuteronomy, and stated the blessings of keeping it and the curses of breaking it. In the end Israel broke the Covenant and lost their homeland.

The New Covenant was between the Father and Christ. Our faith in Christ as Saviour, set any Jewish believer free from the Mosaic Covenant, because in the terms of the New Covenant, Jesus kept the Law for all those who believed and embraced Him by faith. Jewish believers are not longer obliged to keep the Mosaic Covenant, because it was cancelled on the death of Christ.

The Abrahamic Covenant would never apply to Jewish or Christian believers because it was made with Abraham, before the nation of Israel was originally founded. When the New Covenant was established at the death of Christ, even the original Covenant made between God and Abraham became obsolete and replaced by the New Covenant. This means that the Mosaic Covenant all the Old Testament believers who were under it, who had faith in the coming Messiah, was cancelled, and they all came under the New Covenant.

Gentiles were never under either the Abrahamic or Mosaic Covenants, and so when after the resurrection of Christ, any Gentiles who embraced Christ by faith, came under the New Covenant.

Now, there have been those who have taught that Christian believers should follow the Ten Commandments, and/or the commands of Christ. But if they did, they would be putting themselves still under the Mosaic Covenant with its blessings and curses. This is because the New Covenant between the Father and Christ required that Christ keep the Law perfectly in every respect, and to die on the cross and receive the full wrath of God for the sin of every person who received and who will receive Christ as Saviiour. That He did.

The New Covenant does not apply to us at all. Jesus Christ fulfilled the New Covenant entirely. Our faith in Christ involves cleaving to Christ and it is our association with Christ that sets us free from the Law of sin and death.

This is why Paul taught that keeping the Law does not justify, because under the New Covenant, keeping the Law applied to Christ and not us. This is what it means to be saved by grace, through faith, and not of works, lest any should boast in them. Those who are seeking to be justified and saved through works are putting themselves back under the Mosaic Covenant that requires them to keep the Law in absolute perfection without a single fault from youth onwards.

 

[Gup20]

The Abrahamic Covenant was made between God and Abraham. It did not involved anyone else.

I disagree. The Abrahamic covenant was always meant to be an everlasting covenant to be inherited by all of Abraham's seed (or descendants).

[Gen 15:5-6 NASB] 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants [seed, singular] be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Gen 17:4-10 NASB 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants [seed, singular] after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants [seed, singlular] after you. 8 "I will give to you and to your descendants [seed, singular] after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." 9 God said further to Abraham, "Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants [seed, singular] after you throughout their generations. 10 "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants [seed, singular] after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.

[Gal 3:6-9 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

[Rom 4:11-17 NASB] 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.​

The New Covenant was between the Father and Christ. Our faith in Christ as Saviour, set any Jewish believer free from the Mosaic Covenant, because in the terms of the New Covenant, Jesus kept the Law for all those who believed and embraced Him by faith. Jewish believers are not longer obliged to keep the Mosaic Covenant, because it was cancelled on the death of Christ.

What you don't realize is that the New Covenant is the Abrahamic covenant.

[Gal 3:16 NASB] 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.​

Go back to Genesis 15-17 and whenever it uses the term (in the King James) "Seed"... it is singular and as Gal 3:16 says, it means God is talking about Jesus Christ. More modern translations translate the "Seed, singular" as "descendants." That Abrahamic covenant WAS God's covenant with Jesus Christ. The Abrahamic covenant is the "covenant of faith."

[Gal 3:14-17 NASB] 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is [only] a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.​

The Abrahamic Covenant would never apply to Jewish or Christian believers because it was made with Abraham, before the nation of Israel was originally founded.

I humbly disagree. Here is why:

[Rom 4:9-17 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

[Gal 4:22-28 NASB] 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these [women] are two covenants: one [proceeding] from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

[Rom 2:28-29 NASB] 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.​

The Abrahamic covenant IS the covenant of faith... it IS the covenant God makes with Christ. It was made to to Abraham and to his seed (singular), meaning Christ. Having just said the "seed" (singular) that the promise was made to was Christ in Gal 3:16, it says:

[Gal 3:18-19 NASB] 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. 19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.​

The "seed to whom the promise had been made" was Christ. This is interesting... it means the covenant of faith pre-dates the covenant of The Law. Look up above in Galatians 3:17; it says the law came 430 years after the covenant of faith was ratified, and that once ratified it can no longer have conditions added to it. This means the covenant of faith was given when The Law didn't exist. It is truly apart from The Law. What it also means is that The Law has never existed apart from the covenant of faith... and The Law can testify about the covenant of faith. For example:

[Deu 30:6 NASB] 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

[Deu 30:11-16, 19 NASB] 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

[Rom 10:4-10 NASB] 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.​