Covenant with Abraham - In Essence, a Christian Covenant?

[Gup20]

You do realize believe means obey, right?

Disobedience is Unbelief.

This is the mantra of all works-based theologies, but obedience and belief are two different (yet related) things. While true belief will result in corresponding action, they are not the same thing.

[Rom 4:2-6 NASB] 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:​

For example, if a car were speeding towards me and I said I didn't think it was going to hit me, but then at the last minute I dove out of the way of the vehicle, one could surmise by my actions that I did in fact think the car was going to hit me.

Then again, I could be so paralyzed by fear that the car was going to hit me that I stood there and let it hit me.

Either way, my belief influenced my behavior, but it wasn't the behavior itself as the statement "you do realize believe means obey" implies.

The faith in his heart came from God speaking to him.

Many who hear from God do not believe Him. Would you also say that their lack of belief came from God speaking to them... if you were consistent, this would also be true. You are taking the responsibility for belief off of the person and putting it on God making God ultimately responsible for deciding who will and will not have faith.

It is a choice that God sets before man but many want to then absolve themselves of the responsibility of making that choice and blame God for their choice.

 

[JLB777]

This is the mantra of all works-based theologies,

It’s the mantra of The Apostles found in the scriptures.


Obedience based theology, which is why. It’s called the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


Like Satan deceived the woman in the garden, so also is any teaching that entices God’s people to disobey His Commandments.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



JLB

 

[Gup20]

It’s the mantra of The Apostles found in the scriptures.


Obedience based theology, which is why. It’s called the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


Like Satan deceived the woman in the garden, so also is any teaching that entices God’s people to disobey His Commandments.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



JLB

For salvation, obedience and works are not necessary. For good, Christian living they are essential.

Works and obedience are not part of the covenant of faith. In fact, when God makes this covenant with Abraham in Genesis 15, and ratifies it by passing between the halves of the animals, God passes between them but Abraham does not.

What does the scripture say regarding salvation and the commandments and the law?

[Gal 3:11-12, 15-18 NASB] 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." ... 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is [only] a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.​

The commandments and the law did not modify or amend the covenant of faith. The covenant of faith was ratified 430 years before they were given to Moses, and once ratified no conditions can be added.

Therefore, obedience is not necessary for salvation... only faith is necessary. Obedience is necessary to walk with God and be His servant... but unnecessary for salvation. The commandments and the law were a different covenant than the covenant of faith. While the covenant of faith exists outside of and apart from The Law, the law bares witness to the covenant of faith.

So faith is truly apart from the law.

[Rom 3:21-22, 28 NASB] 21 But now apart from the Law [the] righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even [the] righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; ... 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.​

 

[JLB777]

For salvation, obedience and works are not necessary.

Couldn’t be further from the truth.


Only those who obey the Gospel are saved.


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16



since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-8

• in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17

• Only those who obey the Gospel are saved.

JLB

 

[Gup20]

Couldn’t be further from the truth.


Only those who obey the Gospel are saved.


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16



since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-8

• in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17

• Only those who obey the Gospel are saved.

JLB

Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Genesis 15:5-6 (NASB) 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

How did Abraham obey when God said “all the nations will be blessed in you” or “so shall your seed be”? Bare in mind his obedience had to come prior to his circumcision (which was before Isaac was born).

Romans 4:9-11 (NASB) 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

 

[JLB777]

Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Genesis 15:5-6 (NASB) 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

How did Abraham obey when God said “all the nations will be blessed in you” or “so shall your seed be”? Bare in mind his obedience had to come prior to his circumcision (which was before Isaac was born).

Romans 4:9-11 (NASB) 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

Again, here are the scriptures that instruct us concerning the Gospel.

Secondly, you seem to misunderstand that “Believe” means obey.



But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16



since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-8

• in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17

• Only those who obey the Gospel are saved.

JLB

 

[msortwell]

It seems that Rom 10:16 establishes obey and believe (used in this context) as synonymous

 

[Gup20]

Again, here are the scriptures that instruct us concerning the Gospel.

Secondly, you seem to misunderstand that “Believe” means obey.



But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16

It is not that I misunderstand, but rather that I disagree with your interpretation.

Romans 10:16
NLT: But not everyone welcomes the Good News, for Isaiah the prophet said, “LORD, who has believed our message?

NIV: But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?

NASB: However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?”​

I prefer the NASB because of it's more literal translations... but many translations do not render the Greek word hypakouō as "obey" but rather as it's primary translation which is to "harken" or to "listen" or to "heed." It literally means to listen attentively.

This makes much more sense within the context of Romans 10 than "obey" and within the context of Deuteronomy 30 which Romans 10 quotes extensively. The whole point of Romans 10 is found in the first 4 verses:

[Rom 10:3-11 NASB] 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

[Deu 30:1, 6, 11-15, 19 NASB] 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. ... 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

It wouldn't make sense for Paul to establish salvation apart from works of the law, and the righteousness which comes from practicing the law and drawing a distinction between the law's righteousness and the righteousness which comes without the law on the basis of faith and then quote heavily from scripture which talks about it being a choice set before man and then end by saying faith means to obey the law... that is completely against everything he just got done saying.

For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17

Once again, it looks like the KJV translators had a specific, legalistic agenda or understanding. The Greek word here in 1 Peter 4:17 is apeitheō and it literally means to disbelieve willfully and perversely not believe, unbelieving.

 

[JLB777]

It is not that I misunderstand, but rather that I disagree with your interpretation.

Romans 10:16
NLT: But not everyone welcomes the Good News, for Isaiah the prophet said, “LORD, who has believed our message?

NIV: But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?

NASB: However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?”

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16 NKJV


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? Romans 10:16 KJV

• The KJV translates Strong's G5219 in the following manner: obey (18x), be obedient to (2x), hearken (1x).

Strongs G 5219 - hypakouō

1. to listen, to harken
   
   1. of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is, (the duty of a porter)
      
2. to harken to a command
   
   1. to obey, be obedient to, submit to
      

ὑπακούω hypakoúō, hoop-ak-oo'-o; from G5259 and G191; to hear under (as a subordinate), i.e. to listen attentively; by implication, to heed or conform to a command or authority:—hearken, be obedient to, obey.



You can search all the translations in the world, but the word in the original means the same thing.


Heed, obey, hearken, listen, all mean then same thing;

Do what is commanded.




JLB

 

[Gup20]

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16 NKJV


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? Romans 10:16 KJV

• The KJV translates Strong's G5219 in the following manner: obey (18x), be obedient to (2x), hearken (1x).

Strongs G 5219 - hypakouō

1. to listen, to harken
   1. of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is, (the duty of a porter)
2. to harken to a command
   1. to obey, be obedient to, submit to

ὑπακούω hypakoúō, hoop-ak-oo'-o; from G5259 and G191; to hear under (as a subordinate), i.e. to listen attentively; by implication, to heed or conform to a command or authority:—hearken, be obedient to, obey.



You can search all the translations in the world, but the word in the original means the same thing.


Heed, obey, hearken, listen, all mean then same thing;

Do what is commanded.




JLB

Not necessarily...

Obedience is not the same as hearkening or listening as hearken and listen involves hearing and then making a decision leading to an intentional act of the will, whereas obedience can be blind, wrote, automatic behavior.

 

[JLB777]

Not necessarily...

Obedience is not the same as hearkening or listening as hearken and listen involves hearing and then making a decision leading to an intentional act of the will, whereas obedience can be blind, wrote, automatic behavior.

As you can see from the definition of the original word in the Greek it’s plain to see what it means.


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16 NKJV


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? Romans 10:16 KJV

• The KJV translates Strong's G5219 in the following manner: obey (18x), be obedient to (2x), hearken (1x).

Strongs G 5219 - hypakouō

1. to listen, to harken
   1. of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is, (the duty of a porter)
2. to harken to a command
   1. to obey, be obedient to, submit to

Attempting to redefine a biblical word will not change the truth.




JLB

 

[Gup20]

As you can see from the definition of the original word in the Greek it’s plain to see what it means.


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16 NKJV


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? Romans 10:16 KJV

• The KJV translates Strong's G5219 in the following manner: obey (18x), be obedient to (2x), hearken (1x).

Strongs G 5219 - hypakouō

1. to listen, to harken
   1. of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is, (the duty of a porter)
2. to harken to a command
   1. to obey, be obedient to, submit to

Attempting to redefine a biblical word will not change the truth.




JLB

You shouldn't take the 2nd meaning unless there is a compelling contextual reason to... and here the context is actually the opposite of the 2nd meaning. It doesn't mean obey just because you want it to. The first meaning makes much more sense within the context.

 

[JLB777]

You shouldn't take the 2nd meaning unless there is a compelling contextual reason to... and here the context is actually the opposite of the 2nd meaning. It doesn't mean obey just because you want it to. The first meaning makes much more sense within the context.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9





JLB

 

[Gup20]

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9
JLB

Same word... meaning to listen or to harken. Maybe this will explain it:

Colossians 3:22 (NASB) Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.​

To listen or harken (hypakouō) is something you do with your heart, not an external service.

 

[JLB777]

Same word... meaning to listen or to harken. Maybe this will explain it:

Colossians 3:22 (NASB) Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.​

To listen or harken (hypakouō) is something you do with your heart, not an external service.

Obey means to listen and do what you are told.

Your attempt to “redefine” biblical words to suit your own preconceived idea of doctrine is recognized for what it is. Twisting scripture!

Eternal life is for those who obey Jesus Christ as Lord.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9



JLB

 

[Gup20]

Obey means to listen and do what you are told.

Your attempt to “redefine” biblical words to suit your own preconceived idea of doctrine is recognized for what it is. Twisting scripture!

Eternal life is for those who obey Jesus Christ as Lord.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9



JLB

Says the guy who is trying to define faith as works.

 

[msortwell]

What is the gospel command which must be obeyed?

 

[Gup20]

What is the gospel command which must be obeyed?

[Rom 4:3-6 NASB] 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

[Gal 3:6-9 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

[Gal 2:16 NASB] 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.​

The gospel command is simple: choose life.

[Rom 10:5-11 NASB] 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

[Deu 30:1, 6, 8, 11-16, 19 NASB] 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. ... 8 "And you shall again obey the LORD, and observe all His commandments which I command you today. ... 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

 

[msortwell]

The gospel command is simple: choose life.

You have extracted this command from the text providing the details of the Law Covenant of Moses. While there was certainly a gracious element in the Mosaic Covenant, it seems a stretch to cite this as THE declaration of the gospel command.

 

[JLB777]

Says the guy who is trying to define faith as works.

Please point to the post number where I defend faith as works.


There is a law of faith; a principle by which faith is able to function or operate to produce the intended divine result.


Just like there is a law of gravity, there is a law of faith.


When God speaks to us, moves upon us, inspires us, we receive faith.


When God calls us to do something like repent, we must obey the command to repent of we remain lost.


Do you want me to define what repent means?




JLB