Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism

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The early Dispensationalists were rabid antinomians.....
Indeed. The Mid Acts variety today are rabid antinomians......... and proponants of Open Theism. The further an idea moves away and segregates itself from the historic confessions of the Church, Nicea, Chalcedon, Orange etc, the more heretical and dangerous the teachings. Thanks Rome. :doh:
 
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Iosias

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I would almost agree except that there are soteriological points of contact in most if not all other categories of systematic theology. For example, infant baptism makes no sense according to an Arminian hermeneutic.

Paedobaptism is fully consistent with Arminianism, for example John Wesley was both an Arminian and a paedobaptist!

I believe that is overstating the case, just a wee bit of exaggeration.

The Calvinistic Heritage of Dispensationalism By Dr. Thomas Ice | LifeCoach4God
 
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JM

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I believe that is overstating the case, just a wee bit of exaggeration.

Exactly, it is overstating the case. Ice is trying to gain respect for Dispensationalism by saying, 'hey...some of them were (hypo) Calvinists so Dispensationalism can't be all that bad.)

What I find interesting is that both the infant baptist of the Reformed persuasion and the Dispensationalist believer Israel has a physical seed after the flesh. Perhaps that is why is spread so quickly among the Presbyterians, Congregationalists and Anglicans.

I think Baptists join in because of the cool charts! ^_^

jm
 
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prov1810

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Exactly, it is overstating the case. Ice is trying to gain respect for Dispensationalism by saying, 'hey...some of them were (hypo) Calvinists so Dispensationalism can't be all that bad.)

I don't know what his motives are. But the history is relevant. And it's not just history. Rolland McCune's Systematic Theology came out just a few years ago and it has presuppositional apologetics, pretribulational premillennial eschatology, classic dispensationalism, and Calvinist soteriology.

Dan Phillips is dispensational and five-point Calvinist.
I think Baptists join in because of the cool charts! ^_^
It's true. Dispensationalists are the MBAs of Christianity.
 
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Iosias

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Rolland McCune's Systematic Theology came out just a few years ago and it has presuppositional apologetics, pretribulational premillennial eschatology, classic dispensationalism, and Calvinist soteriology.

Thanks for pointing this out, are there any other recent systematics like this?
 
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prov1810

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Not to worry :)

It seems the McCune book has not sold like hotcakes. No surprise - it's fundamentalist, not Reformed, and dispensationalist, not covenantal, so Reformed readers won't put it at the top of their reading list. Most dispensationalists are fundamentalist Arminians (it seems to me), so the Calvinism will not be winsome.

I will read the book but unlike him I am not cessationist. (My church is Calvinist and Third Wave Charismatic.)

Thomas Ice, again:
If systematic Dispensationalism is rightly understood it logically makes sense only within a theocentric and soteriologically Calvinists theology. Dispensationalism teaches that it is GOD who is ruling His household, as administered through the various dispensations of history. Though Dispensationalism, or elements of Dispensationalism have been disseminated throughout a wide diversity of Protestant traditions, this system of theology is best seen as a system of theology that views God as the Sovereign ruler of heaven and earth; man as a rebellious vice-regent (along with some angels); Jesus Christ is the hero of history as He is saves some by His Grace; history as a lesson in the outworking of God’s glory being displayed to both heaven and earth. In essence, Dispensationalism is a theology properly derived from biblical study and lets God be God.
I don't see how an Arminian can be comfortable reading classic dispensationalists, who are glib in expressing Reformed assumptions about divine sovereignty. I'm reading Ryrie's Dispensationalism today, and this is what he says about the "postponement" of the Kingdom:

"One readily admits that the dispensational concept concerning the offer and rejection of the kingdom at the first advent of Christ is inadequately described by the word postponed. That word views the matter from a human standpoint and in relation to the kingdom program for Israel only. From the divine perspective, of course, nothing is ever postponed, for all events are taking place according to God’s perfectly preplanned order and right on schedule."
 
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JM

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Perhaps the systematic isn't considered scholarly? I don't know. I'll ask around and look for reviews.

It would be my belief that we have a huge selection of proven resources on dogmatics and systematics by Reformed and Dispensational proponents. It probably hasn't sold well in Reformed circles because we have Bavinck, Reymond and a host of others. The market is corned by John MacArthur when it comes to Dispensationalism and I'm sure most will say Johnny Mac isn't the most consistent Dispensationalist out there.

prov is correct in saying most Dispey's are Fundamentalists and Arminian. Why would they want to read it? Most Fundamentalists go ape when they find out your a Calvinist.

jm
 
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Iosias

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It seems the McCune book has not sold like hotcakes. No surprise - it's fundamentalist, not Reformed, and dispensationalist, not covenantal, so Reformed readers won't put it at the top of their reading list. Most dispensationalists are fundamentalist Arminians (it seems to me), so the Calvinism will not be winsome.

I will read the book but unlike him I am not cessationist. (My church is Calvinist and Third Wave Charismatic.)

I've read the chapter on justification; IMO he doesn't add much to what has already been said before, and his assessment of the New Perspective on Paul is way off, but then again I would say that wouldn't I ;). I'd be interested in reading it, though I am sure I will have much to disagree with. :p
 
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Oct 21, 2003
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My main contention with dispensationalism is that it limits even it its most tame incarnation the fulfillment of prophecy through its unnatural and unheard of separation of the Church from Israel.

Brother progmonk, could you unpack or explain how you came to the conclusion above? If it has already been done, my apologies for overlooking.
 
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I guess what I've considered one of the key differences is that in Dispensationalism, there are two eternal people of God: (1) Israel and (2) the Church. Covenant (and New Covenant) theology holds that there is but One people of God.

I also see a different hermeneutical approach between the two. Dispensationalists tend to take the Old Testament promises of a future kingdom in a very literal way (being fulfilled in the Millennium) and by necessity conclude that the Temple would be restored as part of that Kingdom. Covenant (and New Covenant) theology tends to take the New Testament as a interpretive lens through which to re-interpret these promises as promises to the Church in eternity (or, in a spiritual sense, today.)

My own biases may be clear: I think the interpretive methods of the apostles should be normative for our understanding of the Old Testament, rather than a literal hermeneutic that would insist on a restored Temple (which in my opinion would directly contradict the argument in the Book of Hebrews.)

:thumbsup: Brother Daniel, thank you for the great explanation above! Yes "the interpretive methods of the apostles should be normative for our understanding of the Old Testament". Could you explain further especially the first key difference above? I remember some time ago hearing about John Hagee's view of Israel, that all of Israel will be saved, even apart from Christ, which surprised me (perhaps the source misunderstood him?), that any Christian would hold a belief like that, or could arrive to such a conclusion. How would a dispensationalist interpret:

Romans 9:6 "But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed." (NKJV)

It seems they must draw from other texts, but even so, I do not see them reconciling with the above. Seems to outright contradict Jesus when He said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." How do dispensationalists believe Old Testament Saints were saved? Sorry if my thoughts here come off as dense, I am feeling dense tonight.
 
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prov1810

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I remember some time ago hearing about John Hagee's view of Israel, that all of Israel will be saved, even apart from Christ, which surprised me (perhaps the source misunderstood him?), that any Christian would hold a belief like that, or could arrive to such a conclusion.
Hagee supposedly said that he believed that Torah-observant Jews of our time would go to heaven. (I think he has toned this down recently.) This puts him outside of classic, normative dispensationalism. Faithful believers in OT Israel are saved by Christ through faith, but the content of their faith could not have been the same as ours, because we understand the Old Testament in light of the New. This difference does not apply to Jews living now, who have access to the whole counsel of God.

Hagee's misinterpretation of "All Israel will be saved" refers to Romans 11:26, the conversion of Israel in the end-times. John Piper:

"So let me draw out several reasons again why I believe verse 26 (“And in this way all Israel will be saved”) means that someday the nation as a whole (not necessarily every individual; see 1 Kings 12:1; 2 Chronicles 12:1) will be converted to Christ and join the Christian church and be saved. And then we will conclude with some implications."
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Perhaps the systematic isn't considered scholarly? I don't know. I'll ask around and look for reviews.

It would be my belief that we have a huge selection of proven resources on dogmatics and systematics by Reformed and Dispensational proponents. It probably hasn't sold well in Reformed circles because we have Bavinck, Reymond and a host of others. The market is corned by John MacArthur when it comes to Dispensationalism and I'm sure most will say Johnny Mac isn't the most consistent Dispensationalist out there.

prov is correct in saying most Dispey's are Fundamentalists and Arminian. Why would they want to read it? Most Fundamentalists go ape when they find out your a Calvinist.

jm
Johnny Mac characterizes himself as a 'leaky dispensationalist'.
:confused:

What does that mean?




.
 
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John MacArthur will lead you astray with his overbearing dispensationalism. Because of it I no longer recommend him.

Correct me if I am wrong, most Calvinists, especially those holding to Covenant Theology have an end times view where most prophecies in the N.T. have been fulfilled (partial Preterist?), where those (Calvinists, Arminians, etc.) holding to Dispensationalism have an end times view where most prophecies have yet to be fulfilled? If this is so, all I have ever heard concerning end times, is the Dispensational side. Though I have heard both sides of post-trib and pre-trib, and seems many are dropping the whole notion of a rapture. I lean towards the idea that the Church has already gone through the great tribulation, I tie to either the persecution of the Church under Nero, or else the "Crusades" or else the persecution during the time of the Reformation. I say lean, because I have no idea what God has in store for the future, only know that Christ is coming in the future and the earth will not be the same when He is done. To me, it will be a most glorious day, and thinking about it causes me to look forward to see Him, like a wife with a husband in the military, and her husband she has not seen for months on end.

Just looking at events throughout the world in the past one hundred years or so and what appears to me to be declining in many ways in every area of life with exceptions in technology and discoveries and such, I am concerned, and cannot help but be sympathetic towards Dispensationalism, as much as I do not enjoy hearing the "doom and gloom" of it. Whatever the case may be, the grace of God is sufficient, I trust God will give His people the grace for whatever situation in time of need, though it is easy to say at the moment from where I am at.

John MacArthur is an important figure in my opinion, and despite his sympathies with dispensationalism, he is friends with many prominent Presbyterians including R.C. Sproul, they have even done conferences together where people in the audience during Q&A attempt to bring up the differences between them, and of course, they both respond thoughtfully and graciously. Funny part is, it's only recently that I even took the time to listen to John M. As with most any preacher/teacher/instructor/professor I listen with the desire to learn, be inspired, encouraged, comforted, convicted, etc. but I do so also with a grain of caution, and it's probably for this reason, I learn slower than many others. I believe John M. has much to offer, and benefit from, despite some disagreements. I understand though people who have already listened for a long time, and perhaps tired of sifting the chaff from the wheat. I totally feel that way about Arminianism, when all I want to hear is the pure Gospel of Christ, the Gospel of Sovereign Grace.
 
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