Covenant and New Covenant theology

[Studyman]

This (below) is from Moses's version of "God's Laws" that the ancient Israelites were bound to. Personally....I'm more than just grateful to Christ for fulfilling His promise to bring this covenant to an end:

Exodus 31:14 ~ Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.​

Ex. 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Fourteen years at least from the ascension of Jesus Paul wrote this.

Rom. 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Did Paul know he was dead before God's Law came? No, but he said it doesn't matter.

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

So what is your point in posting about what happens when a person sins against God?

Are you saying to me, You shall surely not die?

 

[mkgal1]

I thought the "Passover" was an event, Prophesied by the Word's of a Book which claims to be the Inspired "Word of God"

Passover is a feast on the ancient Hebrew calendar:

 

[Studyman]

....right.......as a shadow of what Christ was going to accomplish on the Cross (as the Perfect Sacrifice that "took away the sin of this world ").

Yes, so we are no longer required to follow the "works of the law" for atonement of sins, because Jesus atoned for them with His own Blood.

 

[Studyman]

Passover is a feast on the ancient Hebrew calendar:

View attachment 285008

But the Christ, the creator of this Feast tells me this?

Lev. 23:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

So again, I am faced with a choice between your religious philosophy, and the Word's of the same Christ who came to earth in the person of Jesus.

He says these feasts are His, you say they belong to to someone else.

The chart you post didn't come from any of the authors of the Holy Scriptures, There is no mention in this chart about the Christ who created these feasts.

This is the whole point I am making. So much of what the Jews taught, and so much of what you preach, doesn't come from the Book known as the Holy Scriptures, rather, they are religious philosophies of man, the very thing both Jesus and Paul warned of over and over.

Now you can say I am interpreting the Word's of the Bible incorrectly as you have.

But come on here, "These are My Feasts"! How many interpretation can there possibly be? A man either believes these Feasts belong to the God that is depicted in the Bible, AKA, Holy Scriptures, or they can believe "other voices" which say they belong to someone else.

But there is no "miss-interpretation" here, only the choice to believe what is written or not believe what is written.

 

[mkgal1]

So again, I am faced with a choice between your religious philosophy, and the Word's of the same Christ who came to earth in the person of Jesus.

He says these feasts are His, you say they belong to to someone else.

Where are you getting the idea from that you believe I said the feasts belong to someone else besides God?

 

[jgr]

If you are preaching that HE has already "Accomplished" all things written in the Law and Prophets about Him, then it is you who are denying the very Word's of the Christ you posted.

Jesus disagrees.

πληρωθῆναι (plērōthēnai) — 2 Occurrences

Luke 24:44 V-ANP
GRK: ὅτι δεῖ πληρωθῆναι πάντα τὰ
NAS: and the Psalms must be fulfilled.
KJV: must be fulfilled, which
INT: that must be fulfilled all things that

Acts 1:16 V-ANP
GRK: ἀδελφοί ἔδει πληρωθῆναι τὴν γραφὴν
NAS: had to be fulfilled, which
KJV: must needs have been fulfilled, which
INT: brothers it is necessary to have been fulfilled the Scripture

The same Greek word in Acts 1:16 is past tense.

Thus interpreting the tense of Jesus' words in Luke 24:44.

Thus denying your futurization.

 

[mkgal1]

The chart you post didn't come from any of the authors of the Holy Scriptures, There is no mention in this chart about the Christ who created these feasts.

That image is the ancient Hebrew calendar. The Bible doesn't give lessons on the ancient Hebrew culture, because they were living in it. That's why (IMO) it's important for us to learn about their culture....it helps us to understand the context of the Bible better.

 

[mkgal1]

I will start a new thread on this and will edit with link.

ETA link to new thread-----> Old Covenant Feasts

 

[Studyman]

Jesus disagrees.

πληρωθῆναι (plērōthēnai) — 2 Occurrences

Luke 24:44 V-ANP
GRK: ὅτι δεῖ πληρωθῆναι πάντα τὰ
NAS: and the Psalms must be fulfilled.
KJV: must be fulfilled, which
INT: that must be fulfilled all things that

Acts 1:16 V-ANP
GRK: ἀδελφοί ἔδει πληρωθῆναι τὴν γραφὴν
NAS: had to be fulfilled, which
KJV: must needs have been fulfilled, which
INT: brothers it is necessary to have been fulfilled the Scripture

The same Greek word in Acts 1:16 is past tense.

Thus interpreting the tense of Jesus' words in Luke 24:44.

Thus denying your futurization.

Well this is a common belief that Jesus has already fulfilled all that was written about Him.

But I will post His Word's anyway in the hope you might consider them..

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Neither you nor I have come to this place. Why? Because it has yet to be fulfilled.

Matt. 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Neither you nor I have come to this place either. WHY?? Because it has yet to be fulfilled.

Col. 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

This was many, many years after Jesus ascended, and these Feasts unto the Lord, which foretell of things the Christ will do, and events that will happen, have yet to be fulfilled. That is why Paul says they are "Things to Come".

As Jesus teaches They "shall" be fulfilled, they "must" be fulfilled, but they are Prophesies which have yet to be fulfilled.

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

The Christ of the Bible's People are still watching for His Prophesied return. A Prophesied event that has yet to be fulfilled.

I know there are "many", who come in Christ's name, that teach you that all has already been fulfilled. Jesus and Paul both warned about these religious philosophies of men.

I am hoping you might consider what the Scriptures teach regarding the fulfillment of all that was written about the Lord's Christ. Even if it doesn't align with the religious philosophies of the land we are born into.

 

[Studyman]

That image is the ancient Hebrew calendar. The Bible doesn't give lessons on the ancient Hebrew culture, because they were living in it. That's why (IMO) it's important for us to learn about their culture....it helps us to understand the context of the Bible better.

I know much of your information regarding the Law and Prophets comes from religious men. But it just seems unsafe to place our Faith in the men, who Jesus said were children of the devil, to define for us God's meaning and purpose and timing of the very Feasts they despised, polluted and corrupted.

I disagree that God doesn't show us exactly what the Jews culture was. It's just that accepting what HE says about them, contradicts mainstream preaching about them.

The same thing goes for the New Covenant God created for us. It seems prudent to simply just accept HIS definition of HIS Own New Covenant. But that would mean the Laws the God depicted in the Holy Scriptures may still exist in the hearts of HIS People. So religious men who hold to the doctrine that God's Laws are obsolete, who don't have the Laws given by the God depicted in the Book called the Bible, can not simply accept God's own definition of HIS Own New Covenant, because to do so, would go against their religious philosophy.

It was for this same reason the Mainstream Preachers of Jesus time couldn't accept HIM as the prophesied Messiah. To do so, would expose their religious philosophies they had defended and taught for centuries, as from men and not from God. So they chose their own religious philosophy over the Word's of the Law and Prophets. Some Zacharias and Simeon did not do.

It's a fascinating study, and proves the age old saying "There is no new thing under the sun".

BTW, a thread discussing the difference between what the Jews taught, and what the God of the Bible taught, would be a great thread.

 

[mkgal1]

I know much of your information regarding the Law and Prophets comes from religious men.

But it just seems unsafe to place our Faith in the men, who Jesus said were children of the devil, to define for us God's meaning and purpose and timing of the very Feasts they despised, polluted and corrupted.

That's your main argument (discrediting "religious men")....as I understand it. But your label doesn't negate their scholarship in ancient Hebrew culture.....something that I believe is imperative to our proper understanding of the Bible. What do you believe qualifies you to be valued in a superior way above these other scholars (seemingly ANY other person)?

 

[mkgal1]

So religious men who hold to the doctrine that God's Laws are obsolete,

Strawman

 

[mkgal1]

BTW, a thread discussing the difference between what the Jews taught, and what the God of the Bible taught, would be a great thread.

Go ahead and create that thread. I agree....it could be interesting.

 

[jgr]

Well this is a common belief that Jesus has already fulfilled all that was written about Him.

It was the belief of the One about Whom all was written, and in Whom all was fulfilled. He said so Himself.

As Jesus teaches They "shall" be fulfilled, they "must" be fulfilled, but they are Prophesies which have yet to be fulfilled.

I've covered the Greek tenses. They were fulfillments in the past tense when Jesus declared them.

The Christ of the Bible's People are still watching for His Prophesied return. A Prophesied event that has yet to be fulfilled.

I know there are "many", who come in Christ's name, that teach you that all has already been fulfilled. Jesus and Paul both warned about these religious philosophies of men.

Notice again who and what was fulfilled:

Luke 24
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

None of which contradicts NT prophecies of His second coming.

 

[Douggg]

Notice again who and what was fulfilled:

Luke 24
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

None of which contradicts NT prophecies of His second coming.

That particular verse refers back to Luke 18. A person needs to understand "while I was yet with you".

Back before the cross, Jesus had told the disciples what was going to take place aforehand as they were heading to Jerusalem. But the understanding of what he said did not register with them, because it was intentional hid from anyone's understanding at that time. It is not until in Luke 24:44, after the resurrection, that Jesus opened their minds to recalling and grasping what he had told them previously back in Luke 18.

31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

 

[Studyman]

That's your main argument (discrediting "religious men")....as I understand it. But your label doesn't negate their scholarship in ancient Hebrew culture.....something that I believe is imperative to our proper understanding of the Bible. What do you believe qualifies you to be valued in a superior way above these other scholars (seemingly ANY other person)?

Actually to be honest, my goal here is to promote discussion about what the Scriptures say. It wasn't me that created the idea of the dangers of religious men and their religious philosophies.

Col. 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

And again;

Matt. 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

These are just 2 of many warnings in both the Law and Prophets and the NT, which warns of the dangers of religious man.

In this example, Jesus was asked about the signs of the future. Notice who HE said was the greatest danger. Not Pagan religions, not Atheists, not Islam, not even Jews. But here Jesus specifically name ONE future religious group containing "MANY" men. And this particular group of "many" are coming in Jesus' Name, and preaching that HE is Truly the Christ. They are the ones Jesus said to "take heed" they don't deceive you. Deceive means to know or convince someone of something that isn't true.

One quick example would be the mainstream preachers accusing Jesus and His Disciples of Transgressing God's Sabbath Commandment because they took a walk in fellowship on HIS Sabbath and picked a blue berry, or ear of corn to eat along the way.

They were convinced this behavior was a sin against God, but if a person studies the Law and Prophets, they will find no such Law existed. They were deceived, convinced by some other voice, that is was a sin to take a walk in fellowship and eat an apple or ear of corn along the way on God's Sabbath. In my view this was an example of the mainstream preachers of Jesus' time placing burdens and a Yoke of Bondage on the shoulders and necks of men Jesus spoke of in Matt. 23.

I see you don't follow the religious philosophies of SDA or JW, or the LDS religious leaders.. I can only assume this is because you don't believe the religious philosophies of their religious leaders.

So you believe their religious leaders can't be trusted, at least not enough to support their religious philosophies. But the ones you have chosen, out of the thousands that exist, you do believe can be trusted.

All I'm saying is we should trust what is written with our own eyes. If we believe in the Jesus of the Bible, then we should know that HE is perfectly capable of revealing Himself to us without a Levite Priest, or Gamaliel or Ellen White, or Joseph Smith or John Calvin, or Pink, or the Pope. All of whom claim to be inspired by God, and all of whom preach different religious philosophies.

My hope is to have an honest discussion about scriptures, not argue about traditions of the many religious franchises we were born into. I know it is uncomfortable to consider the possibility that we may have been led astray. But for me at least, I owe Jesus the honor of listening to Him and "Taking Heed" of those things HE said (Not me) to take Heed of.

 

[Studyman]

It was the belief of the One about Whom all was written, and in Whom all was fulfilled. He said so Himself.



I've covered the Greek tenses. They were fulfillments in the past tense when Jesus declared them.



Notice again who and what was fulfilled:

Luke 24
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

None of which contradicts NT prophecies of His second coming.

The Law and Prophets Prophesy of HIS Second Coming. The NT just reminds us that these Prophesies have not yet been fulfilled. Feast of Trumpets is one such shadow of things yet to come.

I know I'm bucking mainstream religious traditions here, and I know how powerful they are, so I won't continue posting the Prophesies which have not yet been fulfilled, that Jesus said "must be fulfilled".

Thanks for the replies and discussion.

 

[jgr]

The Law and Prophets Prophesy of HIS Second Coming. The NT just reminds us that these Prophesies have not yet been fulfilled. Feast of Trumpets is one such shadow of things yet to come.

I know I'm bucking mainstream religious traditions here, and I know how powerful they are, so I won't continue posting the Prophesies which have not yet been fulfilled, that Jesus said "must be fulfilled".

Thanks for the replies and discussion.

Jesus disagrees with you, from the Scripture and other evidence that I've cited and presented.

Thank you for the replies and discussion.

 

[jgr]

That particular verse refers back to Luke 18. A person needs to understand "while I was yet with you".

Back before the cross, Jesus had told the disciples what was going to take place aforehand as they were heading to Jerusalem. But the understanding of what he said did not register with them, because it was intentional hid from anyone's understanding at that time. It is not until in Luke 24:44, after the resurrection, that Jesus opened their minds to recalling and grasping what he had told them previously back in Luke 18.

31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

True. So Luke 24:44 confirms Luke 18:31. What Jesus predicted in Luke 18:31 was confirmed by Him in Luke 24:44.

In Luke 18:31, the disciples heard but did not understand.

In Luke 24:44, the disciples both heard and understood.

 

[Douggg]

True. So Luke 24:44 confirms Luke 18:31. What Jesus predicted in Luke 18:31 was confirmed by Him in Luke 24:44.

In Luke 18:31, the disciples heard but did not understand.

In Luke 24:44, the disciples both heard and understood.

The reason is that Satan also was not to understand that the messiah after being killed would rise again on the third day.

Luke 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

Satan thought by killing the King of the Kingdom of God, he could avoid the destruction of his own kingdom that was impacting the nations and the affairs of man. And also Satan didn't comprehend that Jesus's death on the cross would free man from the power of sin that had over man to be eternally separated from God.

If you review again the opening of 1Corinthians1-2, Paul is saying about the cross being foolishness to
to them who perish (1Corinthians1:18). And how God had made foolish the wisdom of this world (1Corinthians1:20).


1Corinthians2:

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


So it was intentionally kept secret the understanding of how the plan of Salvation would be carried out.

In Daniel 9, it prophesies about the coming of the messiah, and his being cutoff. But it does not mention the messiah coming back to life. That omission was done in part to keep Satan in the dark.

Knowing that Satan was trying to preserve his own kingdom in his part to have Jesus put to death, gives further understanding to Revelation when the 7th trumpet sounds, the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and His Christ, in Revelation 11:15 what it implicates.

It is at that point that God begins dismantling Satan's mystical kingdom called Babylon the Great, starting by crashing it down to earth from the heavenlies (the second heaven), and then dismantling it piece by piece - until it is completely destroyed at Jesus's Second Coming.