Covenant and New Covenant theology

[mkgal1]

How did Jesus forgive sins before His Death? Did HE do it by following the Temporary "works of the Law" of Forgiveness HE gave to Levi on Israel's behalf? Did Jesus sprinkle blood on the alter every time HE forgave a person their sins? Did He roast the fat of the offering?

No, HE forgave many people while HE walked the earth, and not one time did HE follow the "Works of the Law" when he forgave their sins

This seems to minimize greatly the importance of the Cross....Jesus's Resurrection....and His ascension.

 

[Studyman]

What does this mean?

Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.

If Jesus doesn't return as Prophesied, and resurrect the dead and gather His People from the 4 corners of the world, then we are doomed.

1 Cor. 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

He has not yet returned, therefore all that is written about HIM in the Law and Prophets have not yet been fulfilled, as HE Himself says.

Matt. 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So HE fulfilled HIS Prophesied Role as the Unblemished Lamb. But this is just the beginning of Salvation. "ALL" has not yet been fulfilled. Many preach it has, but to teach this is to deny the Christ's own Words.

As Paul said when he told believers not to let religious men judge them in their obedience to God.

Col. 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Not yet fulfilled.

 

[mkgal1]

Therefore the question.

This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Why not? It was the Law was it not? "Many" who come in Christ's Name, who preach that Jesus is truly the Christ, preach to the world that Love your neighbor as yourself, and the Law of the Sin Offering can not be separated. You pointed to James 2 and made this claim.

Actually....this is another good example of how words can be misinterpreted and understood exactly the opposite of what was meant by the author (the same thing happens with some biblical interpretations).

I never posted (or meant) that "Love your neighbor as yourself, and the Law of the Sin Offering can not be separated". Jesus's words ("love your neighbor as yourself") was the New Covenant fulfillment of the Law of Moses. IOW....it was the proper interpretation of God's Law, because Jesus is God (our High Priest and mediator of the greater Covenant). The shadow (Mosaic Law) was vanishing when the reality had come (and completely vanished in 70 AD). For the ancient Israelites:

Galatians 3:24 ~ Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith.

Hebrews 8:13 ~ In speaking of a new covenant, He makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.​

 

[Studyman]

Peter did have a fairly sudden change of mind that's recorded in Acts 10....prompted by the vision he had and confirmed by the Gentile Pentecost.

Acts 10
34Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism, 35but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right. 36He has sent this message to the people of Israel, proclaiming the gospel of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.​

This is the perfect example of the difference between the Mainstream preachers of Peters time taught, and what the Law and Prophets actually teach.

Peter was taught by the Jews that Gentiles/Strangers were to be avoided and condemned. That it was unlawful to even eat with them. But if you read God's Word given us through Moses, God taught no such thing.

Lev. 19:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.

34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

35 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.

Is. 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

This is why Jesus warned them of the Leaven of the mainstream preachers of their time. This was one example of the "Commandments of Men" Jesus exposed in the Jews religion.

If God accepted Rehab, He would certainly also accept any "Stranger" who placed their trust in Him, like Cornelius.

Peter, like all of God's people, was on a journey out of sin and deception. God promised drive these enemies out, but not all at once. It's a fascinating study to see it come to life in Peter's time, and experience it in my life as well.

Thanks for bringing another popular doctrine to the LIGHT of the Word of God.

 

[mkgal1]

If I honor and respect the Christ where HIS Sabbath that HE created for man is concerned, then I am also obligated to bring a turtledove to the Levite Priest for forgiveness

***ETA.. I see now this isn't your personal belief. I'm keeping this post here, though, to respond to the belief. ***

And that's impossible to do (also - side issue - the Levites never forgave sin - they temporarily covered it). That creates quite a problem for the last 1,950 (+) years - that's a lot of sacrifices to make up.

Besides....I thought we agreed that the priesthood changed? And that Jesus is priest in the order of Melchizedek? Melchizedek didn't bring turtledoves....he brought bread and wine:

Genesis 14:18 ~ And Melchizedek, the king of Salem and a priest of God Most High, brought Abram some bread and wine.​

 

[mkgal1]

Peter was taught by the Jews that Gentiles/Strangers were to be avoided and condemned. That it was unlawful to even eat with them. But if you read God's Word given us through Moses, God taught no such thing.

I agree with you. I think it was also God's sovereighty being shown here as well (and that corruption and human misunderstanding doesn't interfere in God's plan), because Peter’s vision and proper understanding was right on time. The Gospel was to "go first to the Jews" which fulfilled Daniel's prophetic timetable.

Matthew 10:5 ~ These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go onto the road of the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.

​

....but instructions changed when the timing was right. Saul/Paul was converted...and Peter witnessed the Holy Spirit come upon the Samaritans:

Acts 8
14When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15On their arrival, they prayed for them to receive the Holy Spirit. 16For the Holy Spirit had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.​

 

[Studyman]

This seems to minimize greatly the importance of the Cross....Jesus's Resurrection....and His ascension.

I am only pointing out Biblical Facts for your consideration. I'm not sure how speaking the truth about how Jesus forgave sins before the modern religious men of HIS time killed HIM, is minimizing HIS Life, or HIS death. It was HIS LIFE that made salvation possible for me, not HIS Death. It was HIS LIFE that made HIS Death special. All men die, because of sin. But Jesus offered HIS Sinless LIFE for me.

He ascended because of the Life HE led.

Rom. 10:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

You seem to be deflecting again, and not addressing the point of the post you are replying to.

Jesus was sinless, was HE not? Yet HE didn't perform the "works of the law" of atonement given to Levi by Law, but DID forgive sins of men.

This is because the Levitical Priesthood was "Separate" from the Laws and judgments of God which define sin and righteousness. At least according to the God of the Bible.

 

[mkgal1]

I am only pointing out Biblical Facts for your consideration. I'm not sure how speaking the truth about how Jesus forgave sins before the modern religious men of HIS time killed HIM, is minimizing HIS Life, or HIS death.

Because it's more than "pointing out Biblical facts". That's a personal interpretation being labeled as "Biblical facts".

I'd commented that what was posted minimized the importance of the Cross, His resurrection, and His ascension. This only supports what I said:

It was HIS LIFE that made salvation possible for me, not HIS Death

 

[Studyman]

***ETA.. I see now this isn't your personal belief. I'm keeping this post here, though, to respond to the belief. ***

I have had several religious men on these forums who have told me just what I said. They believe that if I honor the Christ where HIS 10 Commandments is concerned, I must also engage in the "works of the law" for justification, because they claim I'm trying to be justified by "works of the law".

Of course it is foolishness. But "many" have revealed this foolishness as their stated belief, and in fact this belief in the very foundation of many religious philosophies.

And that's impossible to do (also - side issue - the Levites never forgave sin - they temporarily covered it). That creates quite a problem for the last 1,950 (+) years - that's a lot of sacrifices to make up. [/QUOTE]

Nevertheless, it was required by Priesthood Law to take an offering to the Levite Priest for forgiveness, until the Unblemished Lamb should come.

Besides....I thought we agreed that the priesthood changed? And that Jesus is priest in the order of Melchizedek? Melchizedek didn't bring turtledoves....he brought bread and wine:

Genesis 14:18 ~ And Melchizedek, the king of Salem and a priest of God Most High, brought Abram some bread and wine.​

My understanding is you are promoting a religious philosophy that God's 10 Commandments, and many other Laws have became obsolete because the sacrifice of animals have become obsolete.

You base this on the religious philosophy that the Covenant God made with Levi can not be separated from the 10 commandments, or any of God's Laws and Statutes, and Judgments given to Abraham and Abraham's Children.

I have provided all manner of Scriptural evidence which indicate this philosophy comes from man and not from God, as we have also been warned of over and over.

As the Christ Himself defined His New Covenant as a change in the manner in which God's LAWS are administered, and transgression of His Laws are atoned for, not a change in God's Law themselves.

I see this as a continued effort which began with Eve, to diminish God's Commandments, and promote for doctrines the Commandments of men as the mainstream preachers of Jesus time did.

This was a hard pill for the mainstream preachers of Jesus time to swallow, most held to their religious traditions over the Word's of the God of the Bible.

It seems obvious to me that this very same thing is happening in our time as well. I hope to, through examination of the Holy scriptures, bring this to our minds, so that we might follow the instructions of Jesus, and "Take heed no man who comes in Christ's Name, who also teach that Jesus is truly the Christ, deceives us.

I so much appreciate your bringing out so many modern religious philosophies to examine.

Thanks again.

 

[mkgal1]

It was HIS LIFE that made HIS Death special. All men die, because of sin. But Jesus offered HIS Sinless LIFE for me.

He ascended because of the Life HE led.

He ascended because He is God....the only human worthy to mediate as our High Priest and King that sits on the Throne of David.

By His death, He overcame (our spiritual) death.

 

[mkgal1]

Nevertheless, it was required by Priesthood Law to take an offering to the Levite Priest for forgiveness, until the Unblemished Lamb should come.

....right.......as a shadow of what Christ was going to accomplish on the Cross (as the Perfect Sacrifice that "took away the sin of this world ").

 

[mkgal1]

My understanding is you are promoting a religious philosophy that God's 10 Commandments, and many other Laws have became obsolete because the sacrifice of animals have become obsolete.

Not quite.

The "commandments of stone" (external laws) became written on our hearts (internal laws) through the Holy Spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:7-8
The old way, with laws etched in stone, led to death, though it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was already fading away. Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory under the new way, now that the Holy Spirit is giving life?
​

The Mosaic Covenant never applied to us. We aren't of the 12 tribes....that all was a transitory period. It ended (as a unit) when the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD

 

[mkgal1]

Yet HE didn't perform the "works of the law" of atonement given to Levi by Law, but DID forgive sins of men.

Actually.....what Jesus did was properly interpret for us the meaning of the Law & Prophets (which is what "fulfilled" means). That's a whole study in itself... looking at the life of Jesus and how He fulfilled the Law.

 

[Studyman]

Because it's more than "pointing out Biblical facts". That's a personal interpretation being labeled as "Biblical facts".

I'd commented that what was posted minimized the importance of the Cross, His resurrection, and His ascension. This only supports what I said:

But this is not an honest representation of my statement, in my view.

I made it clear why I believe what I believe, and quoted Paul's own Words which say the exact same thing, and where my belief in this matter came from. "we shall be saved by his life." You didn't post this part of my statement.

Now I know you mean no malice, and that your reaction is a common and normal one. These issues are difficult to discuss, men have a natural resistance to change, and correction, as no one knows more than I.

So I point these things out only to point them out. I have been guilty of this same reaction more than once. So I hold no hard feelings, and am still overjoyed for the opportunity to lay bare our minds content before the Word's of the Christ Himself, and Let HIS Light shine on it to expose the origins, whether they be from God, or philosophies of religious men.

The Biblical Truth is that Jesus forgave sins "Apart" from the "works of the law" given to Levi for atonement. "works of the Law" that the Jews were still promoting even years later after Paul's conversion. You may not believe, but as Paul says;

Rom. 3:3 "For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?" 4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

I think this truth about Jesus and the manner in which HE forgave Sins, is important in a discussion of whether the Priesthood Covenant God made with Levi, was Separate from the Covenant of Abraham that God furthered on to Israel.

Thanks for the discussion. It is good for men to have these discussions in my view.

 

[Studyman]

Actually.....what Jesus did was properly interpret for us the meaning of the Law & Prophets (which is what "fulfilled" means). That's a whole study in itself... looking at the life of Jesus and how He fulfilled the Law.

Are you saying Jesus didn't forgive sin's?

 

[Studyman]

Not quite.

​

The Mosaic Covenant never applied to us. We aren't of the 12 tribes....that all was a transitory period. It ended (as a unit) when the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD

1 Cor. 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.


I have heard this religious philosophy before, but obviously Paul didn't agree.

Can you show me the Scriptures which show that God's Laws ended in 70 AD?

 

[mkgal1]

But this is not an honest representation of my statement, in my view.

I made it clear why I believe what I believe, and quoted Paul's own Words which say the exact same thing, and where my belief in this matter came from. "we shall be saved by his life." You didn't post this part of my statement.

Your interpretation missed parts of this Biblical passage you shared:

Rom. 10:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

.......and my original point was that they - the shared words I was first responding to, not the Bible passage - minimized the importance or the power of the message of the Cross....His Resurrection...and ascension. It wasn't the words of the Bible I was addressing....it was the use and interpretation of it that I was responding to. Those seem to be getting conflated.

 

[mkgal1]

The Priesthood was Prophesied to change, not God's Laws,

This (below) is from Moses's version of "God's Laws" that the ancient Israelites were bound to. Personally....I'm more than just grateful to Christ for fulfilling His promise to bring this covenant to an end:

Exodus 31:14 ~ Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.​

 

[mkgal1]

Are you saying Jesus didn't forgive sin's?

No, of course I'm not saying that. Jesus not only "forgave" sin....John announced Him by saying "He takes away" the sin of this world (John 1:29).

 

[jgr]

So HE fulfilled HIS Prophesied Role as the Unblemished Lamb. But this is just the beginning of Salvation. "ALL" has not yet been fulfilled. Many preach it has, but to teach this is to deny the Christ's own Words.

Christ's own Words are "all".

Here:

Luke 18
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

And here:

Luke 24
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Was Christ denying His own Words?

It appears that your "all" is different from His "all".