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Covenant and New Covenant theology

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Douggg, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I think I understand what you mean, now. I just get a bit concerned about legalism....but i think you're describing more that Abraham had - basically - a circumcised heart....as King David did (is that correct?).
     
  2. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure about the term "legalism". It gets bandied about quite a bit. Was Abraham, Zachariahs, David, Caleb, Anna, Simeon and all the examples of faithful men in the Bible "legalists" because they cherished God's instruction and walked in them? And Jesus Himself, was HE also a Legalist as defined by modern religious man?

    This argument has puzzled me for some time now.

    As for Abraham, it seems to me God instructed him just as Jesus instructs us.

    Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

    Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, (As Abraham was instructed to do) and take up his cross, and follow me. (Into a Land HE will show us)

    It seems Abraham believed God when HE told him to do these things, which seems to indicate Faith in God, and this Faith was shown by Abraham's willingness to deny his own religion, his own traditions, his own family and follow God's instructions.

    4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;

    In contrast, this same God, from the same Scriptures, also gave Cain instructions.

    "If you do well, shall thou not be accepted"?

    But Cain didn't follow the instructions of God. I find these two examples of men very telling. To those who did as God instructed, mercy and Praise. But for those who heard God's instructions, but rejected them and followed "another voice" instead, not so much mercy, and not so much praise.

    I have wondered if I am reading these scriptures correctly. But Paul teaches the exact same thing, so I am encouraged.

    Rom. 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

    So Paul is on the same page as I am regarding the difference between Cain and Abraham.

    These are an example of the choice we all face, Yes? As the Christ tells us.

    Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

    Just like Abraham but Cain didn't.

    I don't mean to be so long, I just wanted to show why I believe as I believe. Thanks for the question.
     
  3. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Good question.

    I'd say, "no".....they definitely aren't legalistic, because I'd define legalism as being about following external rituals with a heart that's far from God.

    I'm not sure how to express this right now. I believe it goes a bit deeper than merely following instructions. We can do what someone asks us to do with loads of resentment in our hearts. I believe it has to do with truly desiring to please God....out of our love and gratitude....not just out of fear of consequences (for one example). A Biblical example would be Psalm 40, where David was bubbling over with gratitude and wanted to express his thankful heart to God.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  4. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    One way to understand this is that salvation is always by grace thru faith in every time period.

    Grace came from God, faith is how men should respond in obedience.

    So for Cain, when God told him how to approach him, by offering the correct sacrifice, Cain chose not to respond in obedience, while Abel did, as Hebrews 11:4 indicated. That response in obedience to what God commanded is seen as faith.

    For Abraham, God commanded him to leave the place he was living in and move to a new land. Abraham obeyed God, not knowing whether that place is habitable or not, and Hebrews 11:8 likewise recognized that as faith.

    Later on Hebrews 11:17 also note that Abraham obeyed God and offered Issac as a sacrifice, God saw that as faith in him too.

    By the time Mount Sinai arrived, God commanded the nation Israel to follow the Law of Moses, while providing a system of animal sacrifices whenever they fail to follow it perfectly. As long as the nation kept offering burnt sacrifices and try to keep the Law, God sees that as faith in him too.

    But now, the current time period we are living in, God commanded the Apostle Paul to tell all of us, Jews and Gentiles, Romans 4:5.

    "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

    This verse is the clearest in telling us who are living in the but now time period, how should we respond in faith, to God's grace

    That is to cease from all works and trust in Christ's finished work on the cross, for our salvation.

    The moment we obey God's instructions there, he sees that as us putting faith in him, and he declares us righteous because we obeyed in faith.
     
  5. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Whoooah !!!
    Do no works you say? Absolutely wrong, we re told to do good works and James 2:14-26 makes it crystal clear that faith without works is dead.

    Why do you use the KJV? don't you realize how poorly translated and in archaic English it is?
    Romans 4:5 But if someone without any works to his credit [yet]; simply puts his faith in Him who acquits the wrongdoer, then His faith is indeed counted as righteousness. RE Bible
    The thief on the cross is the prime example.
     
  6. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    James is not writing to the Body of Christ, the 12 tribes always refer to the nation Israel in scripture.

    James was written under the time past program, where Israel had to obey the Law of Moses to be considered for salvation.
     
  7. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    You surely have to go to great lengths to maintain the necessary separation of Israel and the Church, to fit your beliefs.
    The Book of James is certainly Written for Christians.

    You still fail to comprehend that the 12 tribes are still scattered around the world. Only half, if that of the House of Judah has returned; to a small part of the holy land. The rest are the ones that Jesus came to save. Matthew 15:25
    Jesus did not fail and we Christians are the result of His ministry.
    Romans 2:29 The real Jew is a person circumcised of the heart......
     
  8. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    I can see that you don't accept why only Paul was considered the Apostle to the Gentiles and the Body of Christ.

    Alright, let's not go into whether James was written to the Body of Christ as well. We will agree to disagree there.
     
  9. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Once again you are ignoring the "remnant" in Romans 11:5, and the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6, in an attempt to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.


    At the time James wrote his letter the Northern tribes had been taken into captivity for hundreds of years, and had become genetically mixed with the other Gentile nations in the region, similar to the way the Samaritans were of mixed heritage.


    .
     
  10. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    That's an interesting definition. What do you mean "external rituals"? Are these "teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men"? Or are you calling God's instructions "external rituals?

    Yes, it seems all those examples of Faith in the Bible loved God and Loved His instructions.

    David is a perfect example of someone who trusted God and was Thankful for HIS guidance.

    I'm not sure I follow the part about obeying God with resentment. You have provided a wonderful example of a man who obeyed God out of Love, can you please provide an example of a man who obeyed God with loads of resentment in his heart.

    I ask this because it seems a man's love for God would be shown in his obedience, just as a man's resentment of God would show in their disobedience. I'm not sure there is an example of a man who resented God, but obeyed Him anyway. But I could have missed it.

    I truly appreciate the conversation.
     
  11. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    I think you are missing an extremely important Biblical Fact. From Moses to John the Baptist men were under the Levitical Priesthood. For sins, AKA Transgressions of God's Law, to be forgiven, there were "Works" which were required to be performed. Works Abraham was not commanded to do. The Mainstream preachers of that time did not believe the Messiah had come, so they were still promoting these "works of the law" for justification.

    But the Priesthood changed, as Jesus became the High Priest. There is still sin, described in the Holy scriptures as "Transgression of God's Law. But the manner in which this sin is forgiven has changed. No longer do we take a turtle dove to a Levite Priest for our transgressions to be atoned for. This "work" has become "obsolete as Heb. 7 tells us.

    Chapter 4 is a continuation of chapter 3 with begins with;

    1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

    2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

    3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

    We are still required to "Sin not" or "go and sin no more". It's just that the atonement "works" ADDED till the Seed should come has been changed. Our sins are now forgiven apart from the "works" of the atonement laws God gave Levi on Israel's behalf.

    Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

    7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

    Paul is talking about forgiveness, atonement. I would like to ask you one simple question, please don't do as others on this forum, and refuse to answer.

    According to the Holy scriptures, "What was the only way for sins to be forgiven from Moses to John the Baptist"?



    That is a popular religious philosophy in the religions of the land. But this philosophy seems to lack Scriptural evidence to show it was wrought of God.

    I can find no place in the Bible where it says we are to cease from works. It says We are to cease from "our" works, "our" definitions, "our" righteousness, and replace them with "HIS" works, "HIS" definitions, "HIS" righteousness.

    As Paul clearly teaches.

    Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

    20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (ALL) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

    And again;

    Rom. 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: (Works)

    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

    This is at least 14 years after Jesus ascended to His Father. Paul is still teaching to do "works". He is just saying the "works of the Law" of atonement "ADDED" Till the SEED should come, atonement laws Abraham did not have, are no longer required as promised in the Christ's New Covenant (Jer. 31).

    I will wait for your answer, and thank you for the discussion.
     
  12. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    For the sake of context - both Biblical context and of this thread - I think we should keep the focus on what was going on when the New Testament events were taking place. So..with that in mind...I think the best contrast to King David's loyalty and devotion to God we have is the example of the apostate religious leaders of Jesus' day. They had the Scriptures memorized since childhood....the Bible uses the term "experts in the Law" to describe them. .....but they didn't recognize their Messiah standing right in front of them. They were being warned repeatedly of their impending judgment (that was first mentioned in Deuteronomy - if they'd paid attention to that thread running through Scripture)....but they staunchly persisted in their own power....believing they could figure out a way to maintain control of their Temple and the power associated with it. Their plan was to kill Jesus....as if that would alter what's written. As if they could throw off God's plan with their decisions:

    John 11:48 ~ If we let Him go on like this, everyone will believe in Him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”
    ETA: I wouldn't say legalism is obeying God....it's following the external rituals...believing that's obeying God....when, in fact, God says He doesn't want people following rituals only to have their hearts far from Him.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
  13. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    I think it is important to also include a couple of things that were written. Firstly, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, and the wise men, all knew Jesus when HE came, even as a small child. It is also written that they were obedient and Faithful to the God of the Bible.

    In sharp contrast, the Pharisees, or mainstream preachers of that time who condemned Jesus to death, were not obedient to God. They were "transgressing the Commandments of God by their own man made traditions". They were "Teaching for doctrines the Commandments of Men", not God. Moses gave them God's Law, but they did not keep them. Zacharias did as it is written, but they did not.

    So given this Biblical truth, shouldn't we compare David with Zacharias and Simeon who were Faithful, instead of the religious leaders of that time who were not?

    You said these religious leaders of Jesus time had the scriptures memorized since childhood. But Jesus said they omitted much of God's Laws and went about creating their own righteousness. Even laying grievous burdens on the Shoulders of men.

    So in the New Testament times wasn't Jesus just setting the teaching straight? It is written that HE said HE came for the Lost Children. Why were they lost?

    Jer. 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

    So what was the difference between Zacharias and the High Priest of that time?

    Certainly an interesting discussion.
     
  14. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Well....you'd asked for an example of what I believe is legalism. I don't believe Zacharias and Simeon fall into that category.

    Legalism misses the intent of rituals and Laws. Specifically, the Bible narrative says the purpose of the Law was to point to Christ (because Zacharias and Simeon desired to know God's will....they were able to follow God's desire).

    Paul is a good example of both legalism (when he was Saul) to a faithful child of God (after his conversion).
     
  15. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Matthew 23:2-5
    The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, burdensome loadsa and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.All their deeds are done for men to see.
     
  16. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    I DO know that Paul was an Apostle to the Gentiles. Acts 13:47
    However the term 'gentile' was used to refer to anyone who was not a Jew. That included the Israelites from the ten Northern tribes. It can be proved from the historical record, that the Galatians and other peoples he preached to, were actually descendants of Israel, who migrated from their Assyrian exile.
    This fact is carefully avoided by scholars, it is God's secret, as we are told; He knows where they are and He watches over them. Amos 9:8-9

    Conversely; we can all see why you determinedly grip onto the false theory of Two People, Two Promises. The fact that we Christians are the Israelites of God, ruins the doctrine of the Church being taken to heaven, while the Jews pass thru the GT.
    Neither is Biblical and neither will happen.
     
  17. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I believe the lost sheep were from the ten tribes that had been dispersed throughout the other nations (as Peter writes):

    1 Peter 1:1 ~ This letter is from Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to God’s chosen people who are living as exhiles in the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia.
    Peter is calling them as exiles, scattered in the nations, mingled and now considered by the Jews to be just pagan nations. In ancient Judaism minds, these exhiles were hopeless and outside of the promises of God and the same as any other pagan nation.

    While they were indeed outside of the benefits of being included in the ancient Israelite assembly, in actuality, some of them were indeed inside the promises of God laid out in places like Isaiah, Hosea, Ezekiel, and elsewhere.

    Those promises of God foretold by the prophets of old, were beginning to take place at that time, and a new people was being called, and a new heaven and earth was being designed, and the new temple being built of people, brick by brick upon the cornerstone of Christ as Peter says in chapter 2 of his first letter.

    Hosea 2:23 spoke of the future day when the once rejected people would be remarried to God and return to Him, and Peter quotes this directly, stating it was occurring to those people he was addressing in his letters, telling them:

    Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. (1Pe 2:10)
    Paul makes this same type of people distinction when addressing the Ephesians,
    as Paul lays out the blessings afforded to he and his fellow Jews in verses one through eleven of chapter one, and then turns to sing the praises of those who were not Jews who had come to the same faith as promised. He states it as:

    In him we (Jews) have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we (Jews) who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you (Gentiles) also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. (Eph 1:11-14)​

    And like Paul mentioned in Romans 10 passage, the Jews knew this grace to the Gentiles was coming, and so they had no real excuse.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
  18. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Yes....Jesus was the proper fulfillment or actual conclusion to what was written in the Ancient Hebrew Scriptures.
     
  19. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    What Law was to point the Jews to their Savior?

    The "Law of Works" for atonement, or the Law of Faith? It seems like the Law of Works for atonement, AKA Levitical Priesthood, which was ADDED till the SEED should come, was to lead them to their true High Priest. Once they were Led to Him, HE shows them the Law of Faith, "Love God with all your heart, and Love thy neighbor as thyself.

    Saul was a child of disobedience, unlike Zacharias. He became a child of obedience like Zacharias after his conversion.

    I have heard of this doctrine which implies that the Pharisees were rejected because they kept the Letter of the Law of God.

    This description of the Pharisees is the exact opposite of the Christ's definition of them.

    I asked what you believe was the difference between Zacharias and the Pharisees were.

    It seem pretty straight forward to me. Zacharias yielded himself to the Word of God, while Saul yielded himself to the religious doctrines and traditions of the shepherds who led God's People astray.

    Is this wrong scripturally speaking?
     
  20. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Romans to Philemon were written to the Body of Christ
    Hebrews to Revelations were written to the nation Israel.

    Learn to rightly divide the word of truth.
     
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