• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Covenant and New Covenant theology

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Douggg, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,762
    Canada
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Not at all. It meant that no unfaithful disobedient unbelievers were immune from the harshest punishment of a Holy God.

    Their sonship did not save them.

    Why do you refuse to recognize God's distinctions between believing faithful obedience, and unbelieving unfaithful disobedience?
     
  2. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +736
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    Not so fast, So as a human father, if you have a son who is disobedient to you, he is no longer your son?
     
  3. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,762
    Canada
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Not so fast yourself.

    Was God wrong to punish unbelieving unfaithful disobedience?
     
  4. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +736
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    No he was not wrong.
     
  5. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    +6,794
    Anglican
    Married
    As I posted earlier....the judgement mentioned there was for those in the Old Covenant. That judgement and Covenant ended in 70 AD.
     
  6. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +736
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    So, conveniently, you have decided for yourself that 1 peter 4 is only directed to Israel but not the body of Christ?
     
  7. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    +2,083
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    It refers to the One true Israel. Jesus. The One who really Overcame Satan, by His death and resurrection.
     
  8. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +736
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    I see. So Every time Israel is mentioned in the bible during the ot, you believe that is how one is suppose to understand it by, that it refers to Jesus and not the nation?

    Do you really think the audience of that verse, the pharaoh of Egypt, is suppose to interpret Like you do, that he was currently keeping Jesus as a slave?
     
  9. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    +2,083
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    What we are expected to use, is commonsense.
    Something that I don't see you using, when you make comments like the above and when you determinedly promote a special status and the Salvation of all the Jewish State of Israel.

    1 Peter 2:7-10 So for you who have faith, the Cornerstone [Jesus] is of great value, but for the faithless it is a stone they trip over. They trip and fall because they refuse to believe the Word and this is the fate appointed for them.

    But you Christians are now the chosen race, a royal priesthood, a dedicated people, a nation claimed by God for His own. We are called out of darkness into His glorious Light. Once Christians were not a people, now you are God’s people…..

    Notice that the; you are a chosen, holy nation of priests, that was originally applied to ethnic Israel at the foot of Mt. Sinai, Exodus 19:6, is now applied to Christians to the exclusion of ethnic Israel, unless they too, become Christian.

    The fate appointed for them:
    Jeremiah 12:14 has the clearest prophecy of God’s intentions for the apostate Jewish State of Israel.: …I shall uproot the evil neighbors from My Land and also Judah as well. But if they learn the ways of My [Christian] people, then; their families can join My people there.
     
  10. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +736
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    Don't change the subject. I am asking whether you understand the basic rule of Biblical hermeneutics, which is the audience to which Exodus 4:22 is given to

    And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

    There is only one person in the intended audience, which is the Pharaoh. Would he have understood Moses as telling him that Israel is Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

    If there is no way he would have understood as that, you cannot insert that meaning into that verse.
     
  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +7,079
    Christian
    Married


    Are you trying to say the Gospel that Peter preached at the house of Cornelius is different than the Gospel Paul preached?


    .
     
  12. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +736
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    Have you read that passage already?
     
  13. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

    +369
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    God's definition of Righteousness, AKA HIS Law, was not yet recorded, in the Examples God had written for our admonition, in Ex. 4. But it was surely known by men prior to this. Abel, Noah and Abraham and Joseph are recorded examples of righteous men according to the Holy Scriptures. This could not be possible unless God first defined righteousness for them, and then these men would have then submitted to HIS Righteousness, become obedient to it. Just as it not possible for men to "sin" against God, unless HE first defined righteousness for them, and then these men rejected God's Righteousness and created their own.

    All men who deny themselves and "turn to God" are considered by God to be His Children. As it is written; "God is no respecter of persons".
     
  14. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +736
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    Are you answering my question in that post you are replying to, or making a separate point?
     
  15. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

    +369
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I was pointing out why God called Israel His Firstborn Son in the Examples God had written specifically for us.
     
  16. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    +6,794
    Anglican
    Married
    This is an example of a type/antitype (there is way too much to post of just this one example of the Israelites being a type). But this is just one aspect of it.

    God's message to humanity - I believe - was a progressive unfolding. Pharaoh would not have understood fully what was meant by Israel being called "the firstborn son"....but these Scriptures were memorized for numerous centuries by the time of God’s incarnation.

    Israel was the firstborn son ....Jesus is the "only begotten Son" (God incarnate) through whom we become "children of God":

    John 1:12-13 ~ But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God—children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.
    "Firstborn" was just the beginning. Remember God's promise to Abraham (that his descendants would be too numerous to count)? Genesis 12:3 and 22:18 say that God promised all nations would be blessed through Abraham and his seed. He chose the nation of Israel to be a type of kingdom of priests and a holy nation (exodus 19:6) to serve Him and be a light to the gentiles (but that wasn't the fulfillment - they weren't all priests). Israel was to fulfill His purpose of reconciling the fallen world back to Him through the promised seed. We then see who that seed (singular) is. Christ fulfilled what humanity fell short in:

    Galatians 3:16 ~ The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.
    .
    ...and He made a way for us to be His children:


    Galatians 3:29 ~ And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.


     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
  17. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    +6,794
    Anglican
    Married

    Interesting how the value and importance of context shifts depending upon how a person wishes to use Scripture to prove their point - instead of allowing Scripture to actually inform their beliefs.
     
  18. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +736
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    [
     
  19. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +736
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    When God mentioned Israel is the firstborn, I believe he meant Israel is the first in his eyes among all the nations.

    But no matter how you sliced it, Israel in Exodus 4:22 is to be interpreted as all the Israelites, the people group, that the Pharaoh was keeping as slaves, and not Jesus.

    This same idea was stated in various other OT passages, such as Deuteronomy 7:6-8, Exodus 19:3-6, so I don't really understand why covenant theologians choose to go against it.

    I guess the idea that "God was a racist in the OT" is too much for them to accept.
     
  20. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +736
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    You asked me how I understood Psalms 40. I linked Psalms 40 to the Hebrews passage in Hebrews 10:5-8

    5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

    6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

    7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

    8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

    to tell you that Psalms 40, that part about not desiring sacrifices and burnt offering, was clearly talking about Christ sacrifice. Scripture explained Scripture there.

    Though David came to do the will of God, especially in accord with Deuteronomy 17, he did not fully conform to all of God’s requirements, thus he required sacrifices for himself.

    In contrast, Jesus was fully committed to God’s law in every way, requiring no sacrifices for himself. Thus the delight to do God’s will in Psalm 40, as it is used in Hebrews 10, points to the perfect sacrifice of Christ, but also his full conformity to Deuteronomy 17 and all the Torah by implication

    The question I am asking now is, how would Pharaoh have interpreted Exodus 4:22, there is no comparison to what you asked me about how I interpret Psalms 40.
     
Loading...