Covenant and New Covenant theology

[mkgal1]

By lumping the entire bible together, You are not rightly dividing the word of truth.

"Rightly dividing" doesn't refer to chopping up the biblical story from Genesis to Revelation. It's dividing truth from falsehood. IOW....the separation is between facts and fiction - but ALL Scripture has to be cohesive.

By separating Scripture, a person creates disunified gods from our True Triune God. There becomes one god of the old testament and another in the new....where one rescues us from the other.

 

[mkgal1]

The word church refers to "called out assembly". It is not equivalent to the term "Body of Christ".

Eventually it was...after Christ was manifest.

The word translated to "called out assembly" first shows up in Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy Deuteronomy 4:10;
9:10; 10:4; 18:16

This is a reference to the ekklesia gathered at Sinai...and it begins a story line that eventually finds its fulfillment in the New Testament body of believers (Jewish remnant + grafted in Gentiles).

הַקְהֶל־
(hak·hel-)
Deuteronomy 4:10 Lexicon: "Remember the day you stood before the LORD your God at Horeb, when the LORD said to me, 'Assemble the people to Me, that I may let them hear My words so they may learn to fear Me all the days they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children.'​

 

[claninja]

Yes, the Body of Christ began with his revelation of the mystery that Christ revealed to him.

But it does not follow that the same English word "church" before him, was also the Body of Christ.

Im not following you here. Ephesians 5:23 literally refers to the church as the body of Christ.

 

[mkgal1]

Yes, the Body of Christ began with his revelation of the mystery that Christ revealed to him.

But it does not follow that the same English word "church" before him, was also the Body of Christ.

What do you understand happened to those that had died before Christ came?

This is a visual illustration of what the early church believed (and I agree):

From linked article:
At the centre of the Christian faith is Jesus Christ and His Resurrection from the dead. As such, the Icon of the Resurrection is the most celebrated, the most common, the most cherished, the most instructive.

It is all of these things because the Orthodox Icon of the Resurrection is not content with simply showing us the Risen Christ, or the empty tomb; the Victory shown in the Icon of the Resurrection is complete.

Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And upon those in the tombs bestowing life!
-Paschal (Easter) Hymn​

Jesus Christ was not content with laying in the tomb for three days after His crucifixion. Instead, while His body was entombed, Christ’s soul descended into Hades, or Hell. Christ descended there not to suffer, but to fight, and free the souls trapped there. Just as bringing a light into darkness causes the darkness to disappear, the Source of all Life descending into the abode of the dead resulted in Jesus’ victory over death, and not death’s victory over Jesus. This is the full reality of what Christ’s death and resurrection accomplished.

In the Icon, Jesus Christ stands victoriously in the centre. Robed in Heavenly white, He is surrounded by a mandorla of star-studded light, representing the Glory of God. Christ is shown dramatically pulling Adam, the first man, from the tomb. Eve is to Christ’s left, hands held out in supplication, also waiting for Jesus to act. This humble surrender to Jesus is all Adam and Eve need to do, and all they are able to do. Christ does the rest, which is why He is pulling Adam from the tomb by the wrist, and not the hand.

Surrounding the victorious Christ are John the Baptist and the Old Testament Righteous (Abel is shown as the young shepherd-boy). Those who predeceased Christ’s crucifixion descended to Hades, where they patiently waited the coming of their Messiah. Now they are freed from this underworld, and mingle freely with Christ and His angels.

And what of this underworld, Hades? It is shown in the aftershock of Christ’s descent into its heart – in utter chaos.
"The Resurrection | Icon of Victory – A Reader's Guide to Orthodox Icons" The Resurrection | Icon of Victory

 

[Guojing]

What do you understand happened to those that had died before Christ came?

This is a visual illustration of what the early church believed (and I agree):

View attachment 282258

From linked article:
At the centre of the Christian faith is Jesus Christ and His Resurrection from the dead. As such, the Icon of the Resurrection is the most celebrated, the most common, the most cherished, the most instructive.

It is all of these things because the Orthodox Icon of the Resurrection is not content with simply showing us the Risen Christ, or the empty tomb; the Victory shown in the Icon of the Resurrection is complete.

Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And upon those in the tombs bestowing life!
-Paschal (Easter) Hymn​

Jesus Christ was not content with laying in the tomb for three days after His crucifixion. Instead, while His body was entombed, Christ’s soul descended into Hades, or Hell. Christ descended there not to suffer, but to fight, and free the souls trapped there. Just as bringing a light into darkness causes the darkness to disappear, the Source of all Life descending into the abode of the dead resulted in Jesus’ victory over death, and not death’s victory over Jesus. This is the full reality of what Christ’s death and resurrection accomplished.

In the Icon, Jesus Christ stands victoriously in the centre. Robed in Heavenly white, He is surrounded by a mandorla of star-studded light, representing the Glory of God. Christ is shown dramatically pulling Adam, the first man, from the tomb. Eve is to Christ’s left, hands held out in supplication, also waiting for Jesus to act. This humble surrender to Jesus is all Adam and Eve need to do, and all they are able to do. Christ does the rest, which is why He is pulling Adam from the tomb by the wrist, and not the hand.

Surrounding the victorious Christ are John the Baptist and the Old Testament Righteous (Abel is shown as the young shepherd-boy). Those who predeceased Christ’s crucifixion descended to Hades, where they patiently waited the coming of their Messiah. Now they are freed from this underworld, and mingle freely with Christ and His angels.

And what of this underworld, Hades? It is shown in the aftershock of Christ’s descent into its heart – in utter chaos.
"The Resurrection | Icon of Victory – A Reader's Guide to Orthodox Icons" The Resurrection | Icon of Victory

Before the mystery of the grace dispensation came thru Paul, gentiles can only be saved thru the nation Israel, which means, if they are male, they need to be circumcised and made to follow the Law of Moses (Exodus 12:48, Acts 15:1). Females like Rahab and Ruth were excused from circumcision of course, but they still need to keep the Law after they joined Israel.

But even then, they were not "saved" like how we are today. The blood of bulls and goats only covered their sins. When they die, assuming they were not cut off from Israel's covenant with God (Genesis 17:14), which there are a number of ways one could be cut off, they will be placed in Abraham's bosom or Paradise (Luke 16:22-23, Luke 23:43).

After Jesus died on the cross, he went to that Paradise location and preach to everyone that was placed there. Abraham, David, etc.

The moment they all believe in him, he brought them all up to heaven with him.

For us fortunate enough to be born at this time period, we are saved immediately when we believe the gospel contained in 1 Cor 15:1-4. We will never be cut off from that salvation, since we were sealed by the Holy Spirit the moment we believed.

 

[Guojing]

Im not following you here. Ephesians 5:23 literally refers to the church as the body of Christ.

Yes, that was after Paul was saved. He wrote Ephesians.

But the "church", before he was saved, was all Jews. For gentiles, you need to convert to Judaism in order to be included.

 

[mkgal1]

Before the mystery of the grace dispensation came thru Paul, gentiles can only be saved thru the nation Israel, which means, if they are male, they need to be circumcised and made to follow the Law of Moses (Exodus 12:48, Acts 15:1).

After Jesus died on the cross, he went to that Paradise location and preach to everyone that was placed there. Abraham, David, etc.

The moment they all believe in him, he brought them all up to heaven with him.

So those that predeceased Christ.....joined with Christ when they believed.....correct?

 

[mkgal1]

Yes, that was after Paul was saved. He wrote Ephesians.

But the "church", before he was saved, was all Jews. For gentiles, you need to convert to Judaism in order to be included.

Romans 4:11
Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous—even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Love the ball and chain, lol.

If one keeps the 10 Commandments they must keep all of them including the Seventh Day Sabbath.

false....one day in seven, not seventh day

 

[Guojing]

Romans 4:11
Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous—even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith.

True, Abraham, because of the way it worked out for him, can be considered a father of both the ethnic Jews, and the father of all of us who are in the Body of Christ because of grace dispensation given to Paul.

But that does not go against my point that, before Paul, gentiles could only be saved thru Israel.

 

[Guojing]

So those that predeceased Christ.....joined with Christ when they believed.....correct?

For them, it was not by belief alone in the cross like us, they needed to show their faith thru a corresponding action.

For example, after Mount Sinai, you had to be circumcised and obey the Law of Moses to be placed in Paradise after you die.

 

[mkgal1]

But that does not go against my point that, before Paul, gentiles could only be saved thru Israel.

And Noah and his family? The Bible says Noah was righteous....but he lived prior to the Israelites.

Genesis 6:9 ~
Noah was a righteous man, the only blameless person living on earth at the time, and he walked in close fellowship with God.​

 

[Guojing]

And Noah and his family? The Bible says Noah was righteous....but he lived prior to the Israelites.

Genesis 6:9 ~
Noah was a righteous man, the only blameless person living on earth at the time, and he walked in close fellowship with God.​

Obviously there was no nation of Israel then but Hebrews 11 gave the answer to that.

He showed his faith in God by building an ark, as God commanded.

 

[claninja]

Yes, that was after Paul was saved. He wrote Ephesians.

So you agree that the "church" and body of Christ in Ephesians 5:23 are the same?

But the "church", before he was saved, was all Jews. For gentiles, you need to convert to Judaism in order to be included.

The gathering of God's people (Church) prior to the new covenant mainly consisted of those from the nation of Israel. However, There were proselytes from other nations who converted as you stated.

Under the new covenant, this gathering of God's people is called the body of Christ and is composed of Jews and Gentiles.

Ephesians 2:14-16 For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace and reconciling both of them to God in one body through the cross, by which He extinguished their hostility.

Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Acts 10:34-36 Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism, but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right. He has sent this message to the people of Israel, proclaiming the gospel of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.


Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

Are God's people those of the old covenant or those of the new covenant?
Romans 7:4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away

Galatians 4:30-31 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

 

[mkgal1]

But that does not go against my point that, before Paul, gentiles could only be saved thru Israel.

For them, it was not by belief alone in the cross like us, they needed to show their faith thru a corresponding action.

For example, after Mount Sinai, you had to be circumcised and obey the Law of Moses to be placed in Paradise after you die.

Obviously there was no nation of Israel then but Hebrews 11 gave the answer to that.

He showed his faith in God by building an ark, as God commanded.

I'd suggest that this is the common thread running through the Bible - FAITH....and God's grace (His grace going back to Genesis 3:15). Humanity has ALWAYS been saved through FAITH....and God's grace.

The act of circumcision was a sign of FAITH.....it wasn't an action to satisfy God through obedience (that would be human-based salvation....not Christ-based).

Romans 4:11 ~ Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous—even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith​

 

[Hank77]

false....one day in seven, not seventh day

Exodus 16
23 he said to them, “This is what the Lord has commanded: ‘Tomorrow is a day of solemn rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord; bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over lay aside to be kept till the morning.’ ” 24 So they laid it aside till the morning, as Moses commanded them, and it did not stink, and there were no worms in it. 25 Moses said, “Eat it today, for today is a Sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it in the field. 26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, which is a Sabbath, there will be none.”

27 On the seventh day some of the people went out to gather, but they found none. 28 And the Lord said to Moses, n“How long will you refuse to keep my commandments and my laws? 29 See! The Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Remain each of you in his place; let no one go out of his place on the seventh day.”
Exodus 20
8 i“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

 

[Douggg]

I am glad I started this thread. So I can just read what everyone who holds the covenant and new covenant theology views to express themselves. And I don't feel the need to correct anyone, by staying on the sidelines and being a good listener.

 

[Guojing]

I'd suggest that this is the common thread running through the Bible - FAITH....and God's grace (His grace going back to Genesis 3:15). Humanity has ALWAYS been saved through FAITH....and God's grace.

The act of circumcision was a sign of FAITH.....it wasn't an action to satisfy God through obedience (that would be human-based salvation....not Christ-based).

Genesis 17:14 made it clear God's view towards circumcision in Abraham's descendants

And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

If you are willing to accept the literal meaning of the words in the KJV, you cannot run away from the conclusion that circumcision was necessary for Jews to remain as part of Israel.

And if one is cut off from the nation of Israel during the OT, one cannot be saved.

 

[Guojing]

So you agree that the "church" and body of Christ in Ephesians 5:23 are the same?



The gathering of God's people (Church) prior to the new covenant mainly consisted of those from the nation of Israel. However, There were proselytes from other nations who converted as you stated.

Under the new covenant, this gathering of God's people is called the body of Christ and is composed of Jews and Gentiles.

Ephesians 2:14-16 For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace and reconciling both of them to God in one body through the cross, by which He extinguished their hostility.

Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Acts 10:34-36 Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism, but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right. He has sent this message to the people of Israel, proclaiming the gospel of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.


Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

Are God's people those of the old covenant or those of the new covenant?
Romans 7:4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away

Galatians 4:30-31 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

Yes to your first question.

For your 2nd point, my view is that, prior to Paul being appointed by God to be the apostle to the Gentiles, gentiles in the "church" in the first part of Acts had to convert to Judaism to be inside that "church".

That means they had to be circumcised and obey the Law of Moses (Exodus 12:48. Acts 15:1)

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Exodus 16
23 he said to them, “This is what the Lord has commanded: ‘Tomorrow is a day of solemn rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord; bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over lay aside to be kept till the morning.’ ” 24 So they laid it aside till the morning, as Moses commanded them, and it did not stink, and there were no worms in it. 25 Moses said, “Eat it today, for today is a Sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it in the field. 26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, which is a Sabbath, there will be none.”

27 On the seventh day some of the people went out to gather, but they found none. 28 And the Lord said to Moses, n“How long will you refuse to keep my commandments and my laws? 29 See! The Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Remain each of you in his place; let no one go out of his place on the seventh day.”
Exodus 20
8 i“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

During the first Exodus, the 4th commandment remembered the seventh day creation sabbath.
The New or true Exodus happened after the last of the sabbaths, Pentecost was the 50th day. We now celebrate new creation rest on one day in seven, the first day.