Courts really are, Serial-Killers

com7fy8

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Executing a murderer doesn't bring back the victim and just adds to the number of people who have lost their lives.
And there can be how executing tempts people to not be forgiving. And we know what Jesus says unforgiveness can get us.

I would say that the desire of most victims of crime is that the perpetrator learns something from the pain or loss that they have inflicted, therefore I think the ultimate form of justice would be to experience true sorrow for the crime, an understanding of the gravity of what they have done, and the determination to change their lives.
I think this is a good potential hope. And even if the person stays in prison, still he or she can change one's life.

There are things I have done. If God had not stopped me, by now I likely would have gotten myself killed. Even so, it has been after I became a Christian, when I have become able to see how I really was wrong. Mainly, I missed out on how I could have been loving people.

Not knowing how to love > this might be the main real tragedy of many offenses . . . even ones not maybe a really big deal, but the person who pursues them is missing out of love.
 
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I am personally against capital punishment and am glad it was abolished years ago in the UK.

Interesting, Torah law too.

In short,
under Torah law, capitol crimes are tried by a tribunal of 23 judges, (minor Sanhedrin).

If all 23 form an opinion of guilt, Torah law says,
the accused cannot be convicted and must be exonerated
by the court.

For no man is so utterly evil that there is nothing to be said in his defense,

if not a single member of the court percieves the "innocent
side" of the person standing accused before them,

such a court has disqualified itself from passing judgement on him.

In short.
 
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Kenny'sID

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To everything there is a season,
and a time to every purpose under
the heaven, , A time to kill, and a time to heal


(Ecclesiastes 3:1,3)​

You follow Jesus? Good! Lots of people like to think they do. Trouble there is V-3 has been fulfilled and now jurist methods incorporate man’s methods rather than the NT model, otherwise known as the fulfillment of God’s will.

The hour is coming when whoever kills you
will think he is offering service to God


(John 16:2b)​

IMO, man’s reason is why we curtail the blessings that are on hold. But don’t look to jurisprudence for wisdom we may be missing when they trample NT wisdom with such opinions as ”irredeemable”.

CP vs NT.

Though proponents gather unbridled clergymen in attempts to use the New Testament to justify the use of Capital Punishment in weak extrapolations here and there, it will forever stand as an unproven Christian logic, otherwise known as faithlessness (“sin”).

Take away prisoners cell-phones and flat-screens and subject them to what God sees fit in the NT realities dealing with imprisoned offenders.

There are at least 2 things you didn't take into account...God put his laws into our hearts, and God has his hands on the law of the land. To me anyway, most, if not all crimes that resulted in the death penalty, are ones that deserved it. I also like the fact they usually have plenty of time to think about what they did, and to repent if they are going to before they are sent on their way.

I think God has this well in hand.
 
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rocknanchor

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There are at least 2 things you didn't take into account...God put his laws into our hearts, and God has his hands on the law of the land. To me anyway, most, if not all crimes that resulted in the death penalty, are ones that deserved it. I also like the fact they usually have plenty of time to think about what they did, and to repent if they are going to before they are sent on their way.

I think God has this well in hand.
You bring up a worthwhile consideration. On the side of mercy, and God still “desires mercy, not sacrifice” mercy appears for the people, but at the expense of withholding the example of Christ to the one single offender. According to the “eye for an eye” laws written; fail Christ’s fulfillment.

Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God
for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before
God with sincerity, as those sent from God, ,

, , You show that you are a letter from Christ,
the result of our ministry, written not with ink
but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets
of stone but on tablets of human hearts.


(2 Corinthians 2:17, 3:3)​

Now we come back to mercy, except this time it is for the offender who is “worthy of death”, but technically escapes death and finds a greater mercy, the mercy of a slain Lamb who became a curse for us.

And who are we who are among everyone who was ever born, all worthy of death. Remember? If we offend in one point, we are guilty of all, including that justification of CP you so eagerly wish upon that object of your weakness of wrath.

My advice, get over it and give it to Jesus, it has no place in the annals of the redeemed!
 
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Kenny'sID

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You bring up a worthwhile consideration. On the side of mercy, and God still “desires mercy, not sacrifice” mercy appears for the people, but at the expense of withholding the example of Christ to the one single offender. According to the “eye for an eye” laws written; fail Christ’s fulfillment.

Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God
for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before
God with sincerity, as those sent from God, ,

, , You show that you are a letter from Christ,
the result of our ministry, written not with ink
but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets
of stone but on tablets of human hearts.


(2 Corinthians 2:17, 3:3)​

Now we come back to mercy, except this time it is for the offender who is “worthy of death”, but technically escapes death and finds a greater mercy, the mercy of a slain Lamb who became a curse for us.

And who are we who are among everyone who was ever born, all worthy of death. Remember? If we offend in one point, we are guilty of all, including that justification of CP you so eagerly wish upon that object of your weakness of wrath.

My advice, get over it and give it to Jesus, it has no place in the annals of the redeemed!

This is not an argument that will be settled here, and I still think God is on top of this. Even in the bible there are clear exception to the rules.
 
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rocknanchor

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Though proponents gather unbridled clergymen in attempts to use the New Testament to justify the use of Capital Punishment in weak extrapolations here and there, it will forever stand as an unproven Christian logic, otherwise known as faithlessness (“sin”).
I have seen this in action, , recurring inner shakes of wardens in need of spiritual council. Oh, still, there are some who would willingly profess this has nothing to do with God sending us ground-level conviction!!!
This is in no sense an isolated occurrence. The physiological profession will readily provide an explanation to military personnel in need of council who have provide execution service to spies and traitors in times past. It is is conveniently dropped from consideration of so-called "exhaustive" documentary.
 
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rocknanchor

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Rest of your post was unclear to me.
Being a Christian-wide forum (for the most part), I would have thought even an unbeliever would have understood what is meant by conviction. That is the bulk of that last post??
 
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Being a Christian-wide forum (for the most part)

That's certainly true. In fact, about 95% of this board is for Christians only and I am not allowed to post. So I guess my follow up question is why did you post a Christian only topic in the 5% of the board which non Christians can access?

I would have thought even an unbeliever would have understood what is meant by conviction. That is the bulk of that last post??

If you say so.
 
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rocknanchor

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I guess my follow up question is why did you post a Christian only topic in the 5% of the board which non Christians can access?
Any Moderator here worth their salt should be able to describe for you that wherever any Group who maintains the fundamentals of Christianity and when in exchange with the world at large; if a portion of those who’s participation are contentious with the Gospel doesn’t mean those who are complicit with the Gospel are dragged into that same alienation from God, but meanwhile live under the Sovereignty of God, because they have made peace with God and if truly so, all things are under God's rule, life and liberty.

But here we are and as you appropriately asked “why”. To subject a portion of reason to those who don’t conclude the same? If you knew the Gospel, you would know why, because nearly all the Gospel deals with bringing the good news to all the world. Now (short of actually receiving Jesus as Lord), that brings us to the biggest olive-branch to life you just willingly dismissed,
I would have thought even an unbeliever would have understood what is meant by conviction.
If you say so.
If you truly are an Atheist and have a firm-hold on dismissing the Gospel, both New and Old Testaments including the “many proofs” recorded concerning Jesus death, burial, resurrection and citing of teleportations to many witnesses, , let’s revisit that one olive-branch, shall we?

This isn’t so hard to comprehend, without that above Sovereignty at work whom we Christians recognize as the Spirit of God, if it were not for that work, we would not be able see God’s word appropriately,

", ,we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and
not in the old way of the written code."


“, , of a new covenant--not of the letter but of
the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”


(Romans 7:6, 2 Corinthians 3:6)​

Do you see here that olive-branch? I wouldn’t have guessed so because you haven’t associated all the work of the Spirit yet to even begin to dismiss it. Yet, there, in the “new covenant” or Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is that work of the olive-branch offered by the Spirit in Jesus’ own words concerning that conviction,

“I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. “And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me”

(John 16:7-9)​

How is conviction an olive-branch? Well, it is just as Jesus himself put it,

“, , though you do not believe Me, believe the works,
so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me”


(John 10:38)​

If truly denying the text, you don’t have anywhere else to go but here, the last tangible expression from a loving God, the communion in the form of correction to believe. The Spirit is always ready to welcome us into Christ from which life and breath to deny or follow flows! We obviously do not always have the opportunity. A life of perilous dismissal awaits a most tragic end.

"I am the resurrection and the life;
he who believes in Me will live even if he dies"


(John 11:25)​
 
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Jesus upheld the death penalty, chiding the Pharisees for excusing it upon receipt of Corban.

Paul stated that the civil authorities "didn't bear the sword in vain". What do we think "executing wrath" on evildoers means? Did the Romans, "the ministers of God for good" not execute men for mere thievery?

Romans 13:4
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
 
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rocknanchor

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Jesus upheld the death penalty, chiding the Pharisees for excusing it upon receipt of Corban.

Paul stated that the civil authorities "didn't bear the sword in vain". What do we think "executing wrath" on evildoers means? Did the Romans, "the ministers of God for good" not execute men for mere thievery?

Romans 13:4
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
It’s late! When the worst of conflicts arise, a war often ensues. If two battalions each, survive a night of continual shelling of each other’s defensive shields, the only thing necessary is for one to come out with a small but very significant edge of low collateral damage to fundamentally turn the tide in their favor.

It appears clouds have gathered to blur that edge of the appropriate use of lethal force. For a look at the big-picture, it seems the word expresses the world’s purposes to use lethal force upon any which falls between two opposing inward identities:
  • Those “who obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.” (Romans 2:8)
  • Them “who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.” (Romans 13:4)
To consider this a leap of good and evil force shouldn’t have to cloud the ability to augment His same full implementation of justice as has been stated. Its hard to say how many stands opposed to the abolition of Capitol Punishment. One of the most prominent reasons for this is because the haste to conclude is because they think it isn’t really established in the word one way or the other. I disagree.

"And He said to them, “When I sent you out without money belt and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?” They said, “No, nothing.” And He said to them, “But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. “For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.” They said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”

(Luke 22:35-38)​

So, what is this that would present itself as so substantial? There is a lot of speculation in the wind over this passage; the question over to be “numbered”, resulting in a “fulfillment” by telling His disciples (who are also among those “numbered”) to assume sword-ownership (v-36)?

Take another look, straightway, the Lord makes clear there is a link to know and not to alter,

“But now, , buy one. “For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me” (v-36, 37)​

So, what is the fulfillment of this along with “two swords” being “enough”? If there is fulfillment to be had, it must not dither. I am confident the two swords represent two camps of the flock’s authority; one to maintain civil tranquility, another to defend oneself and his own from any form of deranged instability.

Among those he would die for being one sword; the ones who would “bear the sword” by containing all incidental disorder which would be exerted equivalent to any evil disturbance.

Look at that disturbance the night of Jesus's arrest and His response to Peter's aggression in these two passages:

"Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?”

(John 18:11)

“Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. “Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

(Matthew 26:52, 53)​

I welcome any to tell me here where our Lord said to Peter “you also” will at once put at your disposal more than so many angels? Yes, He has already given them “authority, ,over all the power of the enemy” several chapters prior but here although He placed this appeal to the Father strictly in His own hands, told of the swords end, but again told of the Godly remedy - His.

Peter was observant and willing to act which he obviously remembered,

“There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for one's friends.”

(John 15:13)​

Many conclude, it isn’t our call to think we are doing God a service by killing others, anytime basing it on this classic passage,

"My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."

(John 18:36)​

Then what are those two swords in Luke 22 which were supplied but for God's people? Are the use of those swords not buffeted to those I just described,

“, , one [sword] to maintain civil tranquility,
another to defend oneself and his own
from any form of deranged instability.”

Here is where we need that Spirit of unity to act where appropriate, “for we wrestle not against flesh and blood” nor “fight” as seen above, yet there isn’t full submission either,

You are already filled, you have already become rich, you have become kings without us; and indeed, I wish that you had become kings so that we also might reign with you.

(1 Corinthians 4:8)​

Saying, we may or we may not yet have begun beyond fundamental Church related protocol. The inner "sword of the spirit" and those bearing the “sword” as I see it, work together.

So, if a Christian takes up the sword of “terror” knowing he may have to lay down his life also, then why isn’t this His will if that servant so chooses? As identifying ungodly aggression as “Unrighteous” walking in the “deeds of the flesh” (Galatians 5:19). If there ever was a place to condemn authority’s use of force, even to the death of the evildoer, and the offender stayed resistant to that end, it would have been prescribed in Galatians 5:21 saying a soldier who might commit “murder” for instance. But I realize that is only a questionable remark. Added to the aforementioned, and even if they were the only things left on the table, would not leave the question in strong ambiguity. But there are also these. Here are a few:

1. “If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.” (Romans 12:18)

2 “whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God; just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved.” (I Cor 10:32, 33)

3. “Live as free people, , “ I Peter 2:16)

4. “You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.” (I Cor 7:23)

He has showed you, O man, what is good;
and what does the LORD require of you,
but to do justly, and to love mercy, and
to walk humbly with your God?


(Micah 6:8)​

Surely, you can tell I say all this so we know what the Lord's will is in when and where to using lethal force. Bottom line, the overwhelming degree shown in scripture tells us when the ball is in our court, many times over, we are to exert mercy for the few and for the many.

If any further comments arrive from here on out, I no longer expect a academic nor seasoned response to counter the scale which have long-since tipped out of sight.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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It’s late! When the worst of conflicts arise, a war often ensues. If two battalions each, survive a night of continual shelling of each other’s defensive shields, the only thing necessary is for one to come out with a small but very significant edge of low collateral damage to fundamentally turn the tide in their favor.

It appears clouds have gathered to blur that edge of the appropriate use of lethal force. For a look at the big-picture, it seems the word expresses the world’s purposes to use lethal force upon any which falls between two opposing inward identities:
  • Those “who obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.” (Romans 2:8)
  • Them “who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.” (Romans 13:4)
To consider this a leap of good and evil force shouldn’t have to cloud the ability to augment His same full implementation of justice as has been stated. Its hard to say how many stands opposed to the abolition of Capitol Punishment. One of the most prominent reasons for this is because the haste to conclude is because they think it isn’t really established in the word one way or the other. I disagree.

"And He said to them, “When I sent you out without money belt and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?” They said, “No, nothing.” And He said to them, “But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. “For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.” They said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”

(Luke 22:35-38)​

So, what is this that would present itself as so substantial? There is a lot of speculation in the wind over this passage; the question over to be “numbered”, resulting in a “fulfillment” by telling His disciples (who are also among those “numbered”) to assume sword-ownership (v-36)?

Take another look, straightway, the Lord makes clear there is a link to know and not to alter,

“But now, , buy one. “For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me” (v-36, 37)​

So, what is the fulfillment of this along with “two swords” being “enough”? If there is fulfillment to be had, it must not dither. I am confident the two swords represent two camps of the flock’s authority; one to maintain civil tranquility, another to defend oneself and his own from any form of deranged instability.

Among those he would die for being one sword; the ones who would “bear the sword” by containing all incidental disorder which would be exerted equivalent to any evil disturbance.

Look at that disturbance the night of Jesus's arrest and His response to Peter's aggression in these two passages:

"Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?”

(John 18:11)

“Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. “Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

(Matthew 26:52, 53)​

I welcome any to tell me here where our Lord said to Peter “you also” will at once put at your disposal more than so many angels? Yes, He has already given them “authority, ,over all the power of the enemy” several chapters prior but here although He placed this appeal to the Father strictly in His own hands, told of the swords end, but again told of the Godly remedy - His.

Peter was observant and willing to act which he obviously remembered,

“There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for one's friends.”

(John 15:13)​

Many conclude, it isn’t our call to think we are doing God a service by killing others, anytime basing it on this classic passage,

"My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."

(John 18:36)​

Then what are those two swords in Luke 22 which were supplied but for God's people? Are the use of those swords not buffeted to those I just described,

“, , one [sword] to maintain civil tranquility,
another to defend oneself and his own
from any form of deranged instability.”

Here is where we need that Spirit of unity to act where appropriate, “for we wrestle not against flesh and blood” nor “fight” as seen above, yet there isn’t full submission either,

You are already filled, you have already become rich, you have become kings without us; and indeed, I wish that you had become kings so that we also might reign with you.

(1 Corinthians 4:8)​

Saying, we may or we may not yet have begun beyond fundamental Church related protocol. The inner "sword of the spirit" and those bearing the “sword” as I see it, work together.

So, if a Christian takes up the sword of “terror” knowing he may have to lay down his life also, then why isn’t this His will if that servant so chooses? As identifying ungodly aggression as “Unrighteous” walking in the “deeds of the flesh” (Galatians 5:19). If there ever was a place to condemn authority’s use of force, even to the death of the evildoer, and the offender stayed resistant to that end, it would have been prescribed in Galatians 5:21 saying a soldier who might commit “murder” for instance. But I realize that is only a questionable remark. Added to the aforementioned, and even if they were the only things left on the table, would not leave the question in strong ambiguity. But there are also these. Here are a few:

1. “If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.” (Romans 12:18)

2 “whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God; just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved.” (I Cor 10:32, 33)

3. “Live as free people, , “ I Peter 2:16)

4. “You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.” (I Cor 7:23)

He has showed you, O man, what is good;
and what does the LORD require of you,
but to do justly, and to love mercy, and
to walk humbly with your God?


(Micah 6:8)​

Surely, you can tell I say all this so we know what the Lord's will is in when and where to using lethal force. Bottom line, the overwhelming degree shown in scripture tells us when the ball is in our court, many times over, we are to exert mercy for the few and for the many.

If any further comments arrive from here on out, I no longer expect a academic nor seasoned response to counter the scale which have long-since tipped out of sight.

With respect, I have no idea what you are saying here. :scratch:
 
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rocknanchor

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With respect, I have no idea what you are saying here. :scratch:
Hi! Well, it doesn’t sound as though you have followed the thread too deeply. That’s alright.

The subject of this thread is CP (Capital Punishment) and to see if within a Christian forum, the opinion thereof will identify more with the state or God’s will?

The simple title of that will was presented in the OP, opening verse,

To everything there is a season,
and a time to every purpose under
the heaven, , A time to kill, and a time to heal


(Ecclesiastes 3:1,3)​

That is what this thread has dealt with; “a time to kill”. Therefore, you are free to comment as to what you feel God expects out of us as it pertains to the use of CP for captive prisoners.

Do you disagree or agree in the use of CP?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I would say that there would be a legitimate case for protecting oneself or another innocent party against an aggressor if there was an imminent risk of harm. Someone who is already in prison for a crime can no longer harm anyone, is defenceless against any sentence that may have been passed upon them, and there is also the potential for contrition and repentance. Executing a murderer doesn't bring back the victim and just adds to the number of people who have lost their lives. I would say that the desire of most victims of crime is that the perpetrator learns something from the pain or loss that they have inflicted, therefore I think the ultimate form of justice would be to experience true sorrow for the crime, an understanding of the gravity of what they have done, and the determination to change their lives.

Executing murderers and other violent offenders (rapists, child abusers) would help solve the prison violence problem.

Prison violence - Wikipedia
 
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rocknanchor

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OldWiseGuy

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You feel this is what God expects from us?

Us meaning the church, no. The State, yes. Did Jesus rail against the State while comforting the thief being crucified next to him? He assured the man that this was not the end of his life. The man also accepted that his punishment was just under the law. Most if not all murderers know that they deserve the dp. It is others who don't think so. That makes a big mess out of what is supposed to be justice. God will have mercy on all who are resurrected from such death, allowing them to repent and obtain eternal life. So let the State have it's vengeance and justice and let God later show mercy. It's a win/win for everyone.
 
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rocknanchor

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Yes, the courts are Serial Killers, but not the biggest, not by a long-shot.

The biggest crippler of those who would even attempt to approach spiritual reason God has invited us to are relativism.

relativism
n. A theory, especially in ethics or aesthetics, that conceptions of truth and moral values are not absolute

Those who have no defense are now those you see attempting to derail the thread. Welcome to the real world where to the relativists', the cold hard facts of God's sacred volume drive your senses insane.
 
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rocknanchor

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So let the State have it's vengeance and justice
Just what the spirit of dis-unity will achieve. But you know as well as any that legislators begin to listen to their constituency when swelling begins to occur.
 
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