Couple of points

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xristos.anesti

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First of all – the first thing we do is look at someone “religious icon” and then we look at anything in their post that we assume the group represented by that religious icon is preaching and we go into attack – not really reading not caring what the person said.

Same here, because I have Orthodox Icon next to my nick name (which actually says Christ is risen, btw.) some of you (most of you) will say “what does this Roman Catholic without the Pope want” and you will not read anything – but copy parts of my post (words I have to mention) and attack.

I hope this will not happen, but I think it will.


Let’s try something new – let us actually read what others say – and not oppose them for the sake of opposing and we will see that we actually see more eye to eye than we are willing to admit.

Can we agree on couple of points?

Here they are:


Tradition and/or Bible Only –

No one ever said that the Bible is not more important that Tradition. Let me say that again, no one ever said that the Bible is not more important than Tradition. Bible is more important than Tradition – Bible is where all Tradition starts and finishes. All Tradition is about what the Bible speaks of and if something contradicts the Bible – then truly it is not Tradition but tradition – something spurious.

Now, what we think the Bible says is a different thing – therefore, we might think that Tradition is just tradition because we do not think that Bible says something that someone else thinks the Bible is saying. This is where the difference starts.

But, no one says that the Bible is less important than Tradition.

We can and we will argue about what the Bible says until Kingdom comes, but can we all not assume that because I am an Orthodox – when I argue with someone – I am arguing because I think that Bible is less important than Tradition. No. Can you instead assume that I argue because I disagree with that person about actual interpretation of the Bible?

Also, we should agree that we – all of us - have some sort of Tradition – whether it is someone Bible Commentary, a book, a set of CD’s with our favorite preacher or whatever, but we all have some sort of Tradition – even these forums are some sort of Tradition for we all ask the questions about our faith and we get answers – now, just because I ask St. John Chrysostom and you ask John from Kansas who is un-churched like you – does not mean that I am devil – because you and you John agree and me and “my” John agree and we (2x2 of us) disagree.

Faith and works –

I am an Orthodox – to me (really) this argument about faith and works sounds impossible. Please try to understand – we did not have anything like a Reformation in the East, thus we do not have any consequences of Reformation as seen in the West.

We were to busy trying to survive Arabs, Turks and Communist killers to really pay much attention about what you guys have been fighting over – but now, thank God – we are little free and here we are – in the pit with you – a little bit confused.

Anyway,

Because we all like to defend what we stand for we actually exaggerate about what we believe in order to contradict those “others”.

Maybe during the long history of the Roman Church someone did say that in order to attain salvation one must do works and that is it.

But I have not seen anyone on these forums, nor actually met a Roman Catholic yet who actually said this. We are not saved by works. We are saved by the grace of God in the first instance and then through our faith and what she entails.

Works are the sign of our faith – it is what a Christian (a person who has Christian faith) does. We are not saved because we have those works – it is what we do because we are Christians – works is what a person does when he/she has faith – works are not what person does to get saved – we can not earn salvation – works are done because we have faith.

Now – this is where the point comes where I will disagree with most of Protestants – but for the point of this post I am not going there.

The point of this part is:

Can we please not assume that if a Roman Catholic or Orthodox talks about works we are not, and I will say that again – we are not saying that we are saved by works only, nor are we saying that works are all and be all of Christian salvation.

So, do not accuse us of doing so.

Idolatry –

Many will say that we Orthodox worship Icons and other things, same about Roman Catholics –

Can we once and for all agree that we know what we worship and it is nothing but God.

Seriously – you Protestants on these forums know enough about us – you know that we do stand for what we believe – just as you do. You also know that we are not afraid to defend “all our whacky ideas”.

If we worshiped icons, saints etc we would tell you - we are not.

Can we please refrain from these kind of attacks – I know what I worship and that is only God.

Everything else, let’s argue.^_^
 

Hentenza

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I most definitely agree with you. Very well written. We should never argue about a point of theology without first realizing that we are BOTH christians first. We do worship the SAME God.
I think some of the confusion comes from comments from both sides that are taken completely out of context. I feel like you, that just because of my faith icon, people believe, for example, that we have a license to sin or that we don't care about works. That could not be any further from the truth.
Anyway, I agree with you and arguments away!!!!:wave:
 
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sunlover1

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Great thread xristos.anesti, but faith icons
aside, we disagree.
I mean, this won't make the disagreement
vanish.

And I do try to really read and in fact, I look
for things that are praiseworthy in
posts. (I so don't want anyone to feel that I'm
an anti catholic or anti orthodox or whatever.)

Faith/works I'm with you on, because I
don't really believe many (including myself)
have such a handle on it as they
may wish to believe they do.
And a lot of that is just misunderstanding
each other, some of us arent exactly
eloquent (me lol) :sorry:

SS/tradition I'm with you, UP intill someone
starts telling me that the Bible says
I can't read it with no help but God.

While I agree with what you've written,
there are actually those who do hold
tradition over the word, (no matter the
denomination)

There are actually those who do worship
saints etc., and those people, we all
agree, should be educated and encouraged
to turn from that.
There is one God.

Great sentiments friend
:hug:
And I too hope ppl read and don't
just jump on the bandwagon of condemnation.
But I guess, out of the abundance
of the heart the mouth speaks.

:groupray: :crossrc: :crosseo: :prayer:
 
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bennyk

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In regards to the whole faith/works issue I think I agree with xristos. Or at least I think I am thinking along the same lines.

I believe that we are saved through grace by faith, but it is pretty hard to be a Christian and not try to spread the word, try to do good works, etc. I guess you could say works is a testament to faith. However, I do think if someone was truly converted (and had time to confess/repent their sins to God) 5 minutes before their death (and had never done a good deed in their life; I know the chances are slim, but it could happen) they would be saved.


What do you guys think?
 
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Oblio

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While I agree with what you've written,
there are actually those who do hold
tradition over the word, (no matter the
denomination)

But where are they ? I've not met one, here or IRL. IMO, they are a contrived boogeyman that exist in the rhetorical millieu of the apostolic antagonists arguments.

There are actually those who do worship
saints etc., and those people, we all
agree, should be educated and encouraged
to turn from that.

Again, where are these people ? They are not representative of the people and confessions here at CF.
 
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LoG

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The thing that unifies the body of Christ is the bible. When a particular tradition is brought into a debate then the common ground is lost because a significant percentage of the body will not deem it as being relevant to the discussion.

That's not to say that I don't find some of the readings from EO church father's interesting, because I actually do and am surprised how far my journey has brought me from my Reformed origins to where I see the truth in a lot of what they do say. However that is as a result of what the Spirit has been showing me through my life not because someone said so long ago.

From that viewpoint I am fine if someone holds to a certain tradition but I do get a little ornery when I am told I shouldn't listen to the Spirit anymore but side with an interpretation of a church father simply because they said so. Explain to me why you think the tradition is good and how it augments your spiritual life then I can look at it and check it out within. I will not however hold the tradition up on the same plane as the Word of God especially if I don't sense a leading that way.


The works issue is a funny one for me because the verse Faith without works has played an important part in two areas. The first is that I see Repentance as an ongoing process and not a one time event. The other area is that God has given me a particular talent which I am to use in helping the body that I travel in. I have found in both areas that when I slack off from doing these things that my faith actually weakens. I see that works is the exercising of the spiritual muscle and that without it, it anthopies and will eventually die. I don't think we are to bury our talents or works or as the parable says, " even what has been given will be taken away."
That viewpoint seems to put me outside of mainstream protestant thinking.
 
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sunlover1

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But where are they ? I've not met one, here or IRL. IMO, they are a contrived boogeyman that exist in the rhetorical millieu of the apostolic antagonists arguments.
They're all over the place Oblio, and actually,
I was referring to a couple of "Protestant"
denominations anyhow.
So no worries huh?
Although it's not just protestants.


Again, where are these people ? They are not representative of the people and confessions here at CF.
I didn't imply that they were representative
of the ppl or confessions here at CF.
 
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Oblio

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I didn't imply that they were representative
of the ppl or confessions here at CF.

But there are sure alot of threads and posts here at CF that claim otherwise. Can I then assume that you are with us on this point, and will not participate as an antagonist in such threads ? ;)
 
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Oblio

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They're all over the place Oblio, and actually,
I was referring to a couple of "Protestant"
denominations anyhow.
So no worries huh?
Although it's not just protestants.

Maybe I just look at EO posts then, because we exalt Scripture over any other word of God. :scratch:
And to be truthful, I have never seen an RC that puts Tradition over Scripture either.
 
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E.C.

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My thoughts:

I believe that in order to know why we have disagreements today (Tradition vs. Scripture only) we'd have to look at history to know what caused whatever disagreements.

So I guess in a way, I'm a historian.

See what it is that is disagreed on and see the issue's history. What happened that lead to this now issue to come up? What problems were around at the time? What effect does it have now?
 
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New_Wineskin

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My thoughts:

I believe that in order to know why we have disagreements today (Tradition vs. Scripture only) we'd have to look at history to know what caused whatever disagreements.

So I guess in a way, I'm a historian.

See what it is that is disagreed on and see the issue's history. What happened that lead to this now issue to come up? What problems were around at the time? What effect does it have now?

That may help if the two ( or more ) that disagree only look at the issue the way they do because of the historical beginning . I don't see how that would help if even one of them doesn't care why those in the past looked at the issue . They look at the issue based on what they understand today . And , if those that disagree based on the historical account , they show that they highly regard that account . How easy would it be to convince them that those who were a part of the beginning of disagreement ( with whom they agree ) were incorrect in their assessment of the issue ?

I am not saying that looking at the problem historically won't help . I am merely throwing up reasons why it may end up being a waste of time outside of gaining some knowledge for curiosity's sake .


On a side-note ... since we are discussing such basic "misunderstandings" , continuing to look at all non-orthodox as "protestants" doesn't help . Many are not non-orthodox based on protesting the Catholic groups or are involved in groups that started based upon the idea of reforming them . They don't identify themselves with the Catholic way .

In fact , I don't think that any of the real Protestant groups care anymore whether the Catholic heirarchies change their ways or not . I highly doubt that they would then come back into the then reformed Catholicism , even if the new Catholicism agreed with all of their doctrines . They have had their own ways and hierarchies far too long to simply give them up .
 
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lokt

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I'm neither protestant, catholic, or orthodox. I don't submit to any religion. Yahuweh commands me not to do so.
Nor am I a "christian". My Saviours name is Yahuweh, Yahushua, (a god who saves), denotes Yahuweh's means for reconciliation.
My God, whose name is Yahuweh, spells out when, how,and why I am to "worship" in Leviticus. These instructions are eternal and are not to be deviated from.
There are no icons, no preachers, or clergy. No incense, stained glass windows, statues, paintings, saints, martyrs, virgins, or icons showing my God STILL hanging on a cross. No baptism, sermon, eucharist, offering plates, costumes, hollering preachers, liturgous chanting, processions, or obesiant religious posturing.
My God and my saviour, whose name is Yahuweh, is not even remotely impressed with all this religious stuff.
I tell the truth.
 
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xristos.anesti

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Christ is risen from the dead and with death He destroyed death and to those in grave He gave life.
Christ is risen! In truth He is risen! Rejoice o' creation for the death is dead and the LIFE is alive.


I see no reference to the above being a part of Scripture....can you please put the scriptual placement reference in please...

Peace

Many years, I am not sure if you are asking for a scriptural evidence for my signature? But if you did -

My signature is based on couple of parts of the Orthodox Tradition – some of them are.
a) First letter to the Church in Corinth of St. Paul of Tarsus Cilician, chapter 15.
b) Orthodox Easter greeting whereby one person shall joyfully call: Christ is risen! And a person or persons shall reply: In truth He is risen!
c) Easter matins service (Matins of the Resurrection) of the Eastern Church.
 
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TigerBunny

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Well said brother. I could point you towards resources to either clear the confusion or pehaps, depending on you mindset, muddy it even more but the spirit of your OP is most correct.

Thank you for posting this. As one who is often pre-judged by my "icon" I truly do understand and salute your request.

:clap:
 
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E.C.

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I am not saying that looking at the problem historically won't help . I am merely throwing up reasons why it may end up being a waste of time outside of gaining some knowledge for curiosity's sake .
Part of what I was getting at, was that looking at something historically, one can understand where someone else is coming from.
 
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New_Wineskin

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Part of what I was getting at, was that looking at something historically, one can understand where someone else is coming from.

I understood that . I wrote that people may not have a stance on an issue based on the historical reasons for that stance . For those cases , one whould not understand from where the person comes .
 
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