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couple honest questions for you guys

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by papakapp, Oct 18, 2002.

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  1. papakapp

    papakapp a waterdrop going over niagra falls

    +22
    Christian
    Many churches of various christian denominations split due to disagreements among the congregation. After these splits (which are not the appropriate action in the first place) members of both new churches generally think of the members of the other church as "still christians that I will see in heaven, I just disagree with some of the finer points."

    My question is: Why is the same opinion not as consistently held between catholics and other denominations?

    Second question: If the pope blesses something, like a little statue, or something does it become more special than before it was blessed?

    Third: Do catholics memorize prayers?

    fourth: is is possible to be 100% positive that you are going to heaven?

    thanks for your time.
     
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  2. Rising_Suns

    Rising_Suns 'Christ's desolate heart is in need of comfort'

    +770
    Catholic
    Ok, i'll do my best here to answer your questions friend.

    1. I'm not sure exactly what your asking with this question. Catholic doctrine basically believes that you can still get to heaven and not have to be Catholic..it's not condeming people who are not Catholic.

    2. Yes, it does become "more special" because the object is then a holy object and evil cannot reside in it. Blessing are very important in the spiritual world.

    3. Strange question....well we say prayers alot, so i guess we memorize them indirectly through repetition.

    4. Well, this is an issue that is very delicate to people. I have previously stated in other posts that you can't really be 100% sure of you're going directly to heaven, but i think i need to clarify myself. I believe MOST people can't be 100% sure, but i do believe that if you are extremely strong in the holy spirit and very close to God, you will know it, and you will be assured you will go directly to heaven...but for most people this is not the case, they may be saved, but they must go to purgatory first to work out their sins before they can enter the kingdom of heaven.
     
  3. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

    +2,977
    United States
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    Married
    US-Others
    Do you mean by this that Catholics think they won't see Christians of other denominations in heaven? If so, you're mistaken.....we fully expect to see people of various persuasions in heaven, not just Catholics.
    Yes. It means that the object is now used in the service of God, besides which it may take on special meaning for the person it belongs to, just by virtue of being blessed by the Pope. I have a rosary which belonged to my mother and was blessed by Pope Benedict XV; it is very special to me.
    Sometimes. Rosary prayers are usually memorized so you can repeat them without thinking about them, since you're supposed to be meditating on the mystery of the decade in question anyway. I memorized a lot of prayers in Latin when I was young, mainly because I liked the sound of them in Latin. :)
    Not according to Catholic teaching, no.
    You're very welcome. :)
     
  4. Rising_Suns

    Rising_Suns 'Christ's desolate heart is in need of comfort'

    +770
    Catholic
    is the pope's blessing of an object is more "special" than if a priest blessed an object? :scratch:

     


    can you please tell me exactly what we believe about this...is this in the Cathecism?
     
  5. papakapp

    papakapp a waterdrop going over niagra falls

    +22
    Christian
    This might be a dangerous question... Specifically because I can't stand those endless debates that go on in the evolution forum and in the apologetics forum. Please don't think I am a nit-picker and don't think I enjoy pointless debates that go nowhere.

    I suppose the best place to start would be to explain my position. I am a christian. I have heard many different peoples opinions on catholism and I figured the best thing to do would be to seek unbiased answers before I formulated any opinion.

    2a) does that mean that evil can reside in an inanimate object if it is not blessed?
    2b) If a person is blessed by the pope does that mean that evil cannot reside in him?

    4a) what does a person do to work out their sins? Wasn't Jesus' death and resurection sufficient to cleanse us of our sins?

    4b) *edit*

    4c) what do you make of 1 John 2:3 1 John 4:13 1 John 5:13
    Don't those verses say we can know for sure?
     
  6. fragmentsofdreams

    fragmentsofdreams Critical loyalist

    +410
    Catholic
    I'm glad you did this. Too many people just accept what some authority figure tells them without checking for themselves.

    Catholics generally don't attribute evil to inanimate objects.

    Jesus' death clenses us of our sins. However, we need to open ourselves to God for this to happen. Some things, like prayer, help us to begin to open ourselves to God so that He can get a foothold in our souls. Other things, like charitable deeds, are expressions of our love for others.

    Definitely not. Medieval art even showed men in papal dress being tortured in Hell.
     
  7. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

    +2,977
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    Sure, if you're a poor white boy like me. My family didn't have much money to get to Rome and back on a fairly regular basis. ;)
    The Church has always taught that mortal sin, committed by a believing Christian, cuts one off from God and will dam~n one eternally. (See Catechism, #1472 and 1861.) Since mankind is prone to sin, there is always the chance that one may slip up and commit a mortal sin right up to the moment of death; there are no guarantees. (See Rom 11:22, Phil 2:12, 1 Cor 9:27, 1 Cor 10:11, Gal 5:4, Heb 6:4, and Heb 10:26). It is possible to lose your salvation.
     
  8. I can eat 50 eggs

    I can eat 50 eggs what we have here is a failure to communicate

    +16
    Christian
     

    I think everything else was addressed pretty well, so I'll chime in on this (please correct my goofs anyone)

     

    well, 1 john 2:3

    <SUP>3</SUP>We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.

    Well, the only way you can get assurance from this is if you obey his commands.&nbsp; Sounds simple, right?&nbsp; but the trick is NOBODY obeys his commands.&nbsp; Remember, he made the law more strict, the demands MORE tough to follow (not just adultery, but lust is a sin, not just murder, but hate, etc)&nbsp; so, since no one perfectly obeys his commands, no one can get assurance of there salvation, at least from this verse.

    Next, you asked about 1 John 4:13

    <SUP>13</SUP>We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

    What if we lose his spirit?&nbsp; it's possible, check out Hebrews 6:4-8.

    then, the kicker 1 John 5:13

    <SUP>13</SUP>I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

    Look at the beginning of the chapter till here,

    <SUP>1</SUP>Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. <SUP>2</SUP>This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. <SUP>3</SUP>This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, <SUP>4</SUP>for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. <SUP>5</SUP>Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God

    &nbsp;

    Note that verse 13 echoes the beginning of this, where it says, everyone who believes is born of God.&nbsp; If you are the children of God, you obey his commands. Uh oh, we already saw were that leads.

    &nbsp;

    Also, why are there so many passages that talk about enduring in your faith?&nbsp; We know from Hebrews 6 that a person can fall away, and be consumed by fire, and if it's possible, it would be wrong of us to say that you can be absolutely sure.

    &nbsp;

    (p.s. this is my take on why I believe a certain way on this, I'm not promising it lines up 100% with RCC teachings.)
     
  9. papakapp

    papakapp a waterdrop going over niagra falls

    +22
    Christian
    Hebrews 6...

    What about Hebrews 10:37b - 39?
    "He who is coming will come and not delay. But my righteous one will live by faith. And if He shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him."
    But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

    The Author of Hebrews seems to understand that some will shrink back. But he also knows that he believes and that he is saved.


    We have now heard the argument that 1 John 2:3 is not something that is actually possible to achieve, But rather, the statment was made to illustrate a point. Is it not possible then that the verses in question in Hebrews 6 is the same thing? An impossible situation used to illustrate the significance of the gift of Jesus' death and resurection?
     
  10. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +54
    Catholic
    Hi papakapp,

    Though I'm not Catholic, I just thought I'd share my thoughts.&nbsp; By the way, I'm Catholic-friendly :)

    Anyway, you mentioned 1 John 2:3, 1 John 4:13, 1 John 5:13:

    We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.&nbsp;(1 John 2:3)

    The keyword is 'if'.&nbsp; If someone who claims to be Christian doesn't obey his commands as best as possible, it really makes me wonder, whether he/she truly is a Christian.&nbsp; I'm referring to those who live in complete contradition.

    We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. (1 John 4:13)

    As 'I can eat 50 eggs' mentioned, Heb 6:4-6 is relevant:

    It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


    Personally I think these are some REALLY strong words.&nbsp; But this should illuminate the reality of how serious it is for us to remain in Christ.&nbsp; God doesn't tolerate sin.&nbsp; And I wish I could understand my own words.

    I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.&nbsp; (1 John 5:13)

    I agree that we have eternal life.&nbsp; But at the same time we should be careful not to stray away from Christ.&nbsp; The Catholic church teaches that salvation is a process:

    We are 'saved' (Eph 2:8)

    We are 'being saved' (2 Cor 2:15)

    We 'will be saved' (Matt 10:22)

    Thus we cannot be entirely sure of our salvation right now, since there lies the possibility of shipwrecking the faith (1 Tim 1:19).&nbsp; Thus it's essential for us to remain in Him, because&nbsp;we can't bear fruit without Jesus&nbsp;(John 15:4).

    God bless!
     
  11. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    But if you believe that some may shrink back and fall from grace, then you have to admit the possibility that you, too, could slip into unbelief just as they did. That is why we can never know. We can be reasonably assured, but never certain that we won't reject Christ.

    God Bless,

    Neal
     
  12. I can eat 50 eggs

    I can eat 50 eggs what we have here is a failure to communicate

    +16
    Christian
    I don't really see how Hebrews 6 could be used to illustrate that, could you explain?

    He does seem to know some will shrink back, but, what Hebrews 6 says is that those who shrink back will be believers, they have the Holy spirit, etc.
     
  13. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +54
    Catholic
    The passage makes&nbsp;a distinction between those who shrink back at his coming and those who don't shrink back.&nbsp; And the context seems to speak of the 2nd coming (Heb 10:37).&nbsp; The Bible mentions that salvation comes at the 2nd coming (Luke 21:28, Rom 12:11, Eph 4:30, 1 Thess 5:8, Heb 9:28, 1 Pet 1:5,&nbsp;1 John 2:25, Rev 12:10)

    By the way, read Lev 16 and Heb 9:23-28.&nbsp; It'll explain why a completed&nbsp;salvation would come at the second coming.

    1 John 2:3 indeed speaks of the significance of Jesus's death and resurrection.&nbsp; But the work of redemption isn't complete until the Lord's 2nd coming (Heb 9:23-28).&nbsp; Thus it's not surprising to see that the blessed hope is eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 2:13-14, Titus 3:7), and that justification wasn't fully there yet (Gal 2:17)

    In anycase, the important part about all this is to remain in Christ all the time.

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  14. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +54
    Catholic
    It's also interesting to note that even predestined believers (Eph 1:5, 1:11) were warned to not give any place for the devil (eph 4:27).&nbsp; Even from a calvinist perspective, it shows that we need to remain in Jesus.&nbsp; Otherwise, we may end up falling away from Christ.&nbsp; Being a calvinist myself, I don't think God's elect, from a sovereign perspective,&nbsp;will ever fall away, but the fact is I'm not God, nor do I expect to know if all my Christian friends will leave the faith in the future.&nbsp; Let's stick to Jesus :)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  15. papakapp

    papakapp a waterdrop going over niagra falls

    +22
    Christian
    What a scary thought!
    I will agree that we can never be certain that anyone other than ourselves will not fall away. (Jesus warned of false prophets and wolves in sheeps clothing.) So obviously people can be fooled.

    I did not even have the ability to decide to become a christian on my own. I could not make that decision unless God chose me first.
    I did not come to Him on my own but praise the Lord He chose me!
    And He said "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you" (Hebr 13:5 / Deut 31:6)

    I am so thankful and I am 100% assured that I cannot fall from grace because God chose me and He told me He will not leave me.

    Picture this conversation between a paternal father and his son:
    "Dad, will you always love me, and will I always be your son?"
    "Of course, son. I will always love you and you will always be my son."
    "But dad, suppose I spit in your face, curse mom, burn down the house and steal your car. Will you still love me then?"
    "Well son, I'm not sure I want to answer that."

    God is the same way. We will always be His if we ever truly were His. We may be able to fool men for a little while, but we can't fool God for even one second.

    1 Corinthians 6:12
    Strive to please God. He will give you that assurence.
    Don't strive to please God... What assurance can you have?
     
  16. Rising_Suns

    Rising_Suns 'Christ's desolate heart is in need of comfort'

    +770
    Catholic
    This is not about OSAS..this is about assurance of your salvation as you are currently.

    yes. Evil can reside in inanimate objects for a number of reasons...one that comes to mind is if it is cursed.


    People are different than inanimate objects.

    I think that you can know of your CURRENT salvation. Of course, as you are saying, it can be lost. But still, some people (very few) who are extremely close to Christ and strong in the holy spirit can know for sure of their salvation as they are.
     
  17. I can eat 50 eggs

    I can eat 50 eggs what we have here is a failure to communicate

    +16
    Christian
    You are correct, God will never leave or forsake you, but what if you leave and forsake God?&nbsp; that is quite possible.&nbsp;

    &nbsp;

    Also you said that we can never be sure if others are going to fall away or not, but you can be sure that you aren't.&nbsp; How does that work?&nbsp; if someone else is capable of falling away, so are you.
     
  18. papakapp

    papakapp a waterdrop going over niagra falls

    +22
    Christian

    I did not come do God on my own accord, He chose me. Although my convesoin experience is not as dramatic as some peoples, I can remember an exact day (It was a monday after a weekend of heavy carousing.) That I went to work, feeling rather guilty and wondering if in fact I was saved. (I always went to church and stuff, I just never tried to live it.) I worked with a very strong christian and there was something very different about him. I could not put my finger on it exactly, but he was different. Anyway, that night after work I literally went to him in tears and said "What you've got, I want!" He prayed with me. After that I felt a release, and I knew it was real. I then staretd earnestly tryng to live for Jesus. The first thing I did was get baptized, then I quit listening to my old music, watching my old tv shows, stuff like that.
    It was very obvious that I was trying to do it on my own before that day, and then God clearly drew me to Himself. while I was trying to live for God on my own there was always a chance that I could fall. Since God chose me, I am guarenteed that I will never fall because He told me He would not leave me.

    Before this day, I was raised in the church, was taught about the bible, went through the motions as best I could on my own (Which I was not very good at.)

    Anyway, since assurance of salvation is based on a personal conversion experience, that Is why I say the only person we can be assured of is ourselves.

    If you have doubts, and you want assurance, then pray for it. God has promised that If you seek, He will show you. But don't pray half heartedly, pray earnestly, with full confidence that God does what he says He will do.

    Matthew 7:7 Ask and it will be given to you, seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone wko asks recieves, he who seeks, finds. To him who knocks, the door will be opened.


    At any rate, this topic has taken a detour from my fact gathering mission (Not that that is all bad.) so I have a couple more questions.

    1)what is a rosary?
    2)what is a rosary prayer?
    3)whatever it is, why did they name is 'rosary'?
     
  19. Rising_Suns

    Rising_Suns 'Christ's desolate heart is in need of comfort'

    +770
    Catholic
  20. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +54
    Catholic
    Hi Papakapp,

    Thanks for sharing.&nbsp; It looks like you hold on to the reformed/calvinist view of salvation, that God ultimately&nbsp;chose us, not that we chose God.&nbsp; I actually agree with this view.&nbsp; However, I'm not about to just sit around and do whatever I want.&nbsp; Jesus tells us something significant:

    My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. (John 10:27)

    If we claim that we're absolutely sure that someone claims to say the same thing you did, and then he or she completely walks away from God to the point of hating God, then how can we say that he or she was truly saved by God?&nbsp;

    Of course this is where Calvinists teach, 'perseverance of the saints', which means that if Christians don't persevere for the sake of the gospel, then they weren't saved to begin with.

    It's also interesting to see that Catholics teach something similar, but from a different perspective:&nbsp; If the Christian don't walk with God, then he or she isn't truly saved.

    So the important part about this is to remain in Christ. (John 15:1-17)&nbsp;:)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
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