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Could you share with us the verses that detail the existence of these ceremonial laws and moral laws

Discussion in 'Progressive/Moderate Adventists' started by Daniel Marsh, Jun 20, 2017.

  1. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Spot on, I missed that! Too early in the morning.
     
  2. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Is the following law a commandment or a ceremonial law?

    Exodus 22:22
    You shall not oppress any widow or orphan.

    If it is a ceremonial law then we can ignore it?
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    How is it "ceremonial" in your view??
     
  4. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    I actually have no idea what a ceremonial law is, as the scripture does not define a ceremonial law.

    That law (Exodus 22:22) is not one of the ten commandments, therefore must be a ceremonial law. That is, according to SDA theology.

    So what is your personal opinion on the matter, a commandment or a ceremonial law?
     
  5. Mercy74

    Mercy74 Mercy Messianic Judaism

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    Like Abraham, Paul is a doer of the law not a hearer only fooling yourselves.
     
  6. Mercy74

    Mercy74 Mercy Messianic Judaism

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    The law of circumcision existed prior to the temple. Therefore we shall walk by faith, keep the law of circumcision until the temple is built in the new Jerusalem.

    Hebrews 13:10
    We have an altar from which the priests in the Tabernacle have no right to eat.

    After the temple is built in the city of David, this altar shall have one location, inside the most holy place.
     
  7. Mercy74

    Mercy74 Mercy Messianic Judaism

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    The law that pertain to worship at the altar.

    Hebrews 13:10
    We have an altar from which the priests in the Tabernacle have no right to eat.
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    How is it "ceremonial" in your view??

    The statement was about oppressing widows and orphans.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    That is what God said about it... not me.

    It did start with Abrham but it did not apply to anyone outside of Israel/Abraham so then Abraham gives tithes to Melchizedek, And Noah offers sacrifices in worship without any requirement for circumcision. No OT text says that gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved.

    The court of the gentiles allowed for uncircumcised gentiles to worship even at the temple in Jerusalem but not beyond that limit.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    How is it "ceremonial" in your view??

    Thankfully these groups have a lot more clarity on that point...

    I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm all TEN of the Ten Commandments for Christians.

    The Baptist Confession of Faith,
    the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
    D.L. Moody,
    R.C Sproul,
    Matthew Henry,
    Thomas Watson
    Eastern Orthodox Catechism
    The Catholic Catechism.

    =======================

    And Paul's readers knew the difference in 1 Cor 7:19 -- so then "not just SDAs" knowing about this obvious Bible detail.

    ============================
    That is "you" quoting "you" - not me and not one of the Adventist 28 Fundamental Beliefs defining the theology of the SDA denomination.

    Were we simply "not supposed to notice"?? :)
     
  11. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    The Bible never uses the subcategories of ceremonial and moral laws. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws. The existence of the subcategory of moral law implies the existence of a subcategory of laws that are moral to disobey an there are no examples in the Bible of disobedience to any of God's laws being considered to be moral, so I see no justification for the existence of the subcategory of moral law. It does not even make sense to think that it can ever be moral to disobey God.

    Chukim and mishpatim are categories of law used by the Bible, however, there is nothing in the Bible that states that mishpatim are immoral to disobey while chukim are not, while the man-made division between moral are ceremonial laws implies that ceremonial laws are moral to disobey. Furthermore, not everything that people consider to ceremonial laws correspond to chukim, such as those who consider everything but the Ten Commandments to be ceremonial laws, or with memorial festivals, which are edot. The memorial festivals testify about who God is and Christians follow the same God, so by observing the memorial festivals, we are testify about God.

    Mishpatim are in regard to our horizontal relationships with our neighbor and straightforwardly make sense why God commanded them because they derived from the principle of loving our neighbor as ourselves, which can be found in most societies that have courts. However, chukim are only in regard to our vertical relationship with God, which do not straightforwardly make sense why God commanded them, so the fact that there is no explanation for why they are given almost invite us to ponder what God is teaching us about His nature through them. It is the times when we don't understand why God commanded something that we have no greater opportunity to put our faith in God to rightly guide us or to obey simply because we love Him, though ultimately we need to obey if for not other reason than that He is God. Morality is not just in regard to our relationship with our neighbor, but also in regard to our relationship with God.

    In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, which includes refraining from eating unclean animals (Leviticus 11:44-45), so it is not just mishpatim that testify about God's holy nature, but rather all of God's laws testify about God's nature, and Jesus is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), so they all testify or point to how to have a relationship with Jesus (John 5:39-40). In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so God's law is His instructions for how to have a relationship with Christ.

    In Deuteronomy 4:5-8, the intended reaction to the nations seeing Israel's obedience to the Mosaic Law was to marvel at how great and wise He is, so their obedience was intended testify about who God is and how to have a relationship with Him.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020 at 2:14 PM
  12. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    The word 'ceremonial' is not even in the scripture. How can someone then claim that a division exists in the law. A division between commandments and ceremonial law?

    Catholics and Baptists are just men and they generate their own man made doctrines. You also cited the 'Catholic catechism' to support your claim. Yet Bob, you are opposed strongly to the Catholic church and it's theology.

    You are definitely following a traditional understanding of the scripture. The reference to the 'Catholic catechism' proves that you follow tradition. Rather than the plain reading of the text.
     
  13. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    You are correct on this point.
     
  14. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    The way that you are taught to read the scripture, is called an interpretation. Your traditional Catholic interpretation of the scripture calls the ten commandments the moral law. The scripture itself does not call the ten commandments the moral law.

    Exodus 22:22
    You shall not oppress any widow or orphan.

    If your traditional Catholic interpretation of the scripture, calls Exodus 22:22, a ceremonial law. Orphans are no more important than some ceremonial offering. Then you have utterly failed to understand what morality means.

    How could anyone call Exodus 22:22, a mere ceremonial law, is beyond comprehension. Bob, you can afflict an orphan because it is not a commandment?
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Well we do have them contrasted for example in 1 Cor 7:19

    19 "Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God."

    That only works as a contrast between ceremonial law vs moral law of God applicable to all mankind, defining what sin is or is not.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020 at 9:22 PM
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    But the contrast between ceremonial and moral law is in scripture

    1 Cor 7:19 "19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God."

    That answer to the point -- that keeps surfacing... remains.
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Some of its teachings are not correct. But I point to this one incredibly obvious Bible detail - when it comes to all TEN of the TEN Commandments included in the moral law of God -- a Bible detail known to almost every Christian denomination (Including the Catholic Church) -- on planet Earth. A Bible detail so glaringly obvious that both sides agree.

    It just does not "get any easier than this"
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    No it does not. Even the Catholic Church will flat out deny that it takes no statement of belief from scripture - but only from tradition.

    Were we simply not supposed to notice.

    The Catholic Church accepts the virgin birth of Christ and that Christ was the incarnate Son of God - second person of the trinity, so say we all and it is not because we rely on the Catholic Church to first tell us that it is so.

    Again - these points are so incredibly obvious all sides agree.
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    I was never a Catholic - I never had a Catholic interpretation for anything.

    details matter.

    In Mark 7:6-13 Jesus demonstrates that there is no such thing as "the Bible only says whatever my tradition told me to think". Rather Jesus appeals to the reader's ability to see the difference between the Bible, and what they have been told to think... in this specific case.

    6 But He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written:
    ‘This people honors Me with their lips,
    But their heart is far away from Me.
    7 And in vain do they worship Me,
    Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
    8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
    9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

    Jesus tells us that the reader can easily see the contrast no matter who we have as our magisterium.

    Bible details matter to us.

    The point remains.
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    How is it "ceremonial" in your view??

    Thankfully these groups have a lot more clarity on that point...

    I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm all TEN of the Ten Commandments for Christians.

    The Baptist Confession of Faith,
    the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
    D.L. Moody,
    R.C Sproul,
    Matthew Henry,
    Thomas Watson
    Eastern Orthodox Catechism
    The Catholic Catechism.

    =======================

    And Paul's readers knew the difference in 1 Cor 7:19 -- so then "not just SDAs" knowing about this obvious Bible detail.

    ============================
    That is "you" quoting "you" - not me and not one of the Adventist 28 Fundamental Beliefs defining the theology of the SDA denomination.

    Were we simply "not supposed to notice"?? :)
    ==================================
    It contrasts the Commandments of God with the ceremonial law as even the other denominations have admitted in 1 Cor 7:19. Beyond dispute when it comes to that point.

    You "quote you" again as if I take whatever view you decide to quote from your own post. why keep doing that? Is that tactic supposed to be compelling?


    You will need to "Ask yourself that question" since you only quote "you" as the one making that claim.

    Were we simply not suppose to notice???
     
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