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Could you share with us the verses that detail the existence of these ceremonial laws and moral laws

Discussion in 'Progressive/Moderate Adventists' started by Daniel Marsh, Jun 20, 2017.

  1. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Could you share with us the verses that detail the existence of these ceremonial laws and moral laws?

    above was asked by someone elsewhere and I am curious.
     
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  2. HereIStand

    HereIStand Regular Member Supporter

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    Based on Robert Gagnon's book The Bible and Homosexual Practice, the moral laws (against incest, adultery, same-sex intercourse, and bestiality) are in Leviticus 18 and 20. Also, Gagnon argues that Christ references these same chapters in Mark 7:21-23, as does Paul in I Corinthians 5.

    Food laws are addressed in Leviticus 11, purification laws in Leviticus 12, and laws about leprosy in Leviticus 13 and 14. To what extend these (and similar) laws still apply today, could be debated. It can't be debated that the prohibitions in Leviticus 18 and 20 still apply today.
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    1 Cor 7:19 says that ceremonial laws like circumcision do not matter "but what matters is Keeping the Commandments of God" --

    The Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19 references this - as does the Westminster Confession of Faith - section 19.

    Ex 20:11 says the Sabbath was given to mankind at creation.
    Mark 2:27 says the "Sabbath was made for mankind not mankind made for Sabbath" thus the making of BOTH is referenced just as we see in creation week.

    Hebrews 7 tells us that the laws concerning earthly priesthood ended at the cross.
    Hebrews 10:4-12 tells us that the laws concerning animal sacrifices ended at the cross. So this means all ceremonies that specify liturgy only in animal sacrifices - also end.

    Rev 14:12 "the saints Keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
    Matt 19 Jesus said "if you would have eternal life - Keep the Commandments". He is then asked "which ones" and Jesus gives all the Ten Commandments related to man's-duty-to-man.

    D.L. Moody, Andy Stanley, R.C.Sproul, the Catholic document "The Faith Explained" , the Catholic Document 'Dies Domini" by Pope John Paul II. All of them (and many more) admit to these basics in the Bible.

    Moses tells his readers in Genesis 7 and 8 - that Noah knew about the clean-vs-unclean animal laws of Leviticus 11. Those laws say not to eat diseased meat or rats etc. Noah takes the unclean animals by "two's" onto the ark - so eating even one of the unclean species = species-extinction. But he takes the clean animals by 7's - so eating one of the clean animals does NOT result in "species extinction"
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
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  4. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    thanks all
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    For example..

    1 Cor 7:19
     
  6. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    Does anyone here distinguish the difference between God's immutable law, and the law of Moses given by God?
     
  7. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    I firmly believe in the Sabbath day.
    What I cannot grasp is it must be on a Saturday.
    Some believe Sunday worship was instituted with the Apostles gatherings.
    Some believe Sunday worship was instituted due to the day Christ raised from the dead.
    Some believe Sunday worship was instituted due to Constantine.
    I personally believe when Joshua prayed the Sun stand still, the time continuum was changed.
    God created the Sun for light and to count days, by stopping the Sun the days stood still but time in battle continued on earth.
    What I wonder is, did Israel move time foward, or hold to the solar continuum?
    Then there was the sundial turned back as a sign for Hezekiah?
    Would these two events have a revelence, for God to correct the last day in his forknowlage?
    Are these events considered on the Jewish calendar?
    Time according to solar days was stopped, or turned back.
    Yet time on earth continued, could it be these 2 events would have changed the solar continuum in actual days?
    Both of these events may have added up to one full day, if this was the case Sunday would be the last and not the first day of the week.
    I am not trying to change your beliefs in any way, I simply believe God's Word holds all the knowlage of the universe.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  8. Gary K

    Gary K Active Member

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    Why would you think that affected the daily cycle?

    While the number of hours in the day was extended the daily cycle remained the same. The evening and morning cycle was not disrupted. Just because we measure a day by 24 hours does not mean that God does the same. He clearly set the daily cycle measurement criteria during creation. If the extended day happened on a Thursday it was still Thursday until the sun went down and the new day began. Friday would have begun at sunset of the long Thursday.

    I also ask what difference does it make what we humans believe? I can believe black has been changed to white but that doesn't change reality. Black is still black and white is still white. God's word is immutable. It stands forever. No matter what you or I think God's word stays the same, and God's word defines reality for what He speaks becomes reality.
     
  9. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    I did not want to offend anyone.
    I agree God's Word is immutable , here is the event:
    Joshua 10: 12. Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. 13. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. 14. And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.
    I do not know how the daily cycle on earth could remain the same.
    Time was moving for Israel in the battle.
    The warriors did not stand still the Sun did for almost a day.
    God established time in the universe pertaining to earth by creating the Sun and the moon.

    Genesis 1: 16. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18. And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

    Do we base days on the Sun rising and setting?
    We do not base a day on 24 hours , it takes 24 hours for the sun to rise and set and rise again.
    According to the creation there is day and night based on the sunrise and sunset.
    I am not by any means stating God made a mistake.
    We make mistakes by presuming what day is first and last according to the Hebrew calender of that time.
    It seems to matter to those who condem others for not worshiping on Saturday.
    It causes Sunday worshipers to pose their own theories as to why.
    Yes black is black and white is white.
    Yes the Bible shows clearly calender days were stopped for one day the Sun did not go down for about a day.
    The sun dial for Hezekiah was turned back 10 degrees and possibly that finished the about a day.
    Time move forward but the way calender days are counted one is missing.
    Therefore if time moved forward a day for men in battle so did the rest of earth.
    The error was not deleting the lost day on the calender.
    Sunday is the last day of the week.
    A side note ,I know Sunday is of Pagan origin in name, yet it is ironic if indeed the last day of the week was caused to change due to the Sun not moving.

    When all else fails consider what we base our information on, for me it is the Bible and logic.
     
  10. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    A man working with computers in the 1960s confirmed both events and concluded that both events made one day unaccounted for.
    Some how after this got out and probed the correctness of God's Word,
    His papers could not be produced and NASA stated it was false.
    By doing this they were denying the accuracy of the Bible.
    I wonder if scientists would do such a thing?

    In the 1930s another man by using mathematical equations found the same thing, His name was Harry Rimmer.
    Eventually the general public was told it was impossible for him to do.
    His work was dismissed.
    I know personally that Geologists were disproved on the earth age by uncovering of dinosaurs, that were supposed to be millions of years apart .
    They found them together in one place, proving the flood took place.
    The news .came out with a concocted lie.
    Some hero Geologists were given credit ,when it wss my Pastor Who found it when digging with a crane.
     
  11. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Celebrate the new moon day then count till the seventh day, can't go wrong. That was the ancient way of working out when the Sabbath day occurred.

    The papal calendar is a work of the devil.
     
  12. Gary K

    Gary K Active Member

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    Where did the daily cycle change? Where was the lost day? The day the sun stood still the day ended at sundown and the new day began. So what if it was delayed? It didn't change the daily cycle that God set up. The new day begins at sunset. That's why SDAs and Jews count Sabbath from Friday evening at sunset to Saturday evening at sunset. That's the Biblical reckoning of a day. The one God set up at creation. The evening and the morning were the first day. Genesis 1:5

    As to Hezekiah and the sundial going back 10 degrees, I ask the same question. How did it change the daily cycle set up by God? Just because our modern way of looking at things says there can only be 24 hours in a day doesn't mean God sees things the same way.

    Lastly, Sunday has never been the seventh day of the week and it still isn't. The weekly cycle has never changed. Every time the calendar has changed it has not changed the order of the days of the week. Only the dates have changed, not the days of the week. That has always followed the same order. Just because there are electronic calendars out now that run off the business cycle and place Monday as the first day of the week doesn't mean that God is bound by that change. I always change them back to the correct weekly order. In fact, He expects us to honor what He set up at creation. Man cannot change God's laws and God's order.

    Your accounting of a "lost day" is only a lost day by a clock. There was never a day lost in the weekly cycle. God never said that a day is counted by hours or the position of the universe. He said a day is counted by "the evening and the morning". That's God's reckoning of a day. He says so in His word. That's good enough for me. I accept His definition. If you don't want to accept His definition that's your business. I'll stick with God and His word.
     
  13. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    A lost day would be a cycle that the Sun stood still.
    Time continiued, or people would have not moved.
    If you count the days of a week, and use midnight as the end of one day , and the beginning of a new day.
    A few hours after midnight the Sun rises and most people consider that, the beginning of a new day.
    I posted Schripture that clearly stated the Sun stood still for about a day.
    A sundial relies on the position of the Sun in order to tell time.
    God turned the sundial back 10 degrees as a sign for Hezekiah

    The solar day, by contrast, is the time it takes for the Earth to rotate on its axis so that the Sun appears in the same position in the sky. This position changes slightly each day, but on Earth, a mean solar day works out to being 24 hours long.
    Source : Wikipedia

    All I am saying is the Sun stood still for about a day, when Joshua prayed during battle for the Sun not to go down.

    The solar day being held back did not stop time on earth.
    If this day was counted on a calender ,yet time continued ,this would mean the Sabbath could have been acounted for on Saturday , but in time it would be Sunday.
     
  14. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    Why would you consider the sundown as the day ending , when actual time before sundown still moved for about a day?
    That would create a change to compress time .

    Anyway I'm not trying to offend anyone, it is just a curiosity I noticed years ago.

    Exodus 20: 8. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10. But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

    The fundemental commandment here says nothing about calendar
    Days or Saturday or Sunday.

    Even God with us Christ, was accused of breaking the Sabbath.

    Christ redeemed us from all sin, Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses.

    God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, and the law.
    God gave all people a better covenant through Christ, including Gentiles who were never in bondage of the law to begin with.
    I am not contrary to your belief, and have no oppositions to Saterday Worship.


    Romans 14: 18. For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. 19. Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
     
  15. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    "
    10. What is the ceremonial law?

    Such laws and enactments which the Mosaic Religion demands of us Israelites only; we alone of all mankind being those who profess to follow and to be bound by this law. these enactments are called Chuckim or statutes.

    "Behold I have taught you statutes and judgments, as the Lord my God commanded me, that you should do so in the land, whither ye go to possess it. Keep them and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, who shall hear all these statutes, and they will say, Surely this great nation is a wise and intelligent people." Deut. iv. 5,6.

    11. On what is the ceremonial law founded?

    It is based upon the peculiar relation of our forefathers and of us, the people of Israel, their descendants, towards God.

    "And thou shalt remember that thou hast been a bondsman in Egypt: therefore, shalt thou observe and do these statutes." Deut. xvi. 12."
    Catechism For Jewish Children: Chapter V - The Law Revealed Through Moses

    CEREMONIES AND THE CEREMONIAL LAW - JewishEncyclopedia.com

    "Moral Law
    The moral laws, or mishpatim, relate to justice and judgment and are often translated as "ordinances." Mishpatim are said to be based on God's holy nature. As such, the ordinances are holy, just, and unchanging. Their purpose is to promote the welfare of those who obey. The value of the laws is considered obvious by reason and common sense. The moral law encompasses regulations on justice, respect, and sexual conduct, and includes the Ten Commandments. It also includes penalties for failure to obey the ordinances. Moral law does not point people to Christ; it merely illuminates the fallen state of all mankind."

    "
    Ceremonial Law
    The ceremonial laws are called hukkim or chuqqah in Hebrew, which literally means “custom of the nation”; the words are often translated as “statutes.” These laws seem to focus the adherent’s attention on God. They include instructions on regaining right standing with God (e.g., sacrifices and other ceremonies regarding “uncleanness”), remembrances of God’s work in Israel (e.g., feasts and festivals), specific regulations meant to distinguish Israelites from their pagan neighbors (e.g., dietary and clothing restrictions), and signs that point to the coming Messiah (e.g., the Sabbath, circumcision, Passover, and the redemption of the firstborn). Some Jews believe that the ceremonial law is not fixed. They hold that, as societies evolve, so do God’s expectations of how His followers should relate to Him. This view is not indicated in the Bible.

    Christians are not bound by ceremonial law. Since the church is not the nation of Israel, memorial festivals, such as the Feast of Weeks and Passover, do not apply. Galatians 3:23-25 explains that since Jesus has come, Christians are not required to sacrifice or circumcise."
    What is the difference between the ceremonial law, the moral law, and the judicial law in the Old Testament?
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19, and also D.L. Moody's sermon on the TEN Commandments speak of that same division in the LAW of God.

    We see it in 1 Cor 7:19 where the ceremonial law is contrasted with the moral law of God.

    We also see it in Heb 10 where the "sacrifices" end at the cross - even though to this very day it is "still a sin" to take God's name in vain..
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Paul gives points out that circumcision is a good example of it -- in 1 Cor 7:19 and in that text he says the "commandments of God" are by contrast to it.

    19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    In Ex 20:10 we have "the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (yhwh)"

    In the Gospel Christ was in the synagogue on the Sabbath day and never states that they have the wrong day for Sabbath.


    Your statement about "Sunday worship" only works if we admit that what the Bible calls "the first day of the week" -- is sunday.
     
  19. JackRT

    JackRT Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That is completely false and almost to the point of being laughable.
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Although I am not sure what this has to do with circumcision or animal sacrifices...

    Looked into Sidereal time much?
     
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