Could we be healed today

[LouisBooth]

"You are not useing them at all."

Sure I am. I'm using discernment right now and teaching by telling you that thinking people can't be sick and be perfectly in the will of God is wrong. I showed you Job and Ecc to prove it, along with passages in Genesis.

"God did allow the devil to stike Job with these problems, but it was for a very, very short time. Tell me how the story ends, does Job stay in his condition? Did he die that way? "

Thanks for actually admitting. 1. it wasn't a very very short time. 2. you admit here that God does allow bad things to happen to people that are rightous in his sight and this includes sickness...you're started to learn, congrats.

"What does the word "We" mean in John chapter 9. Didn't Jesus heal that man?"

Yes, he did heal that man, though he was sick for a long time before that. the point is you can't say to a sick person, you're being faithless!! because you dont' know what God's plan is for that person's life. It might be his plan for that person to be sick at that moment, therefore you will recieve a big fat NO when you ask for him to be healed.

 

[A Sheep]

Someone that I love suggested that I post my testimony and my opinion on illness/healing in Christians. It is relevant to the issue of faith and healing(or lack thereof):

Back in April of 2000 I started to have constant and inveterate abdominal pains. Due to the illness I was forced to discontinue attending school. Whilst I was home ill I began to read the Bible-online and in print-and I also read Christian apologetics and theology sites. Then one day in early August of 2001 while I was looking up some Christian sites, Praise God that I came upon some Christian sites that contained the truth, how to be forgiven and how to be born-again. I read for a few hours about Jesus being God and how He loved me(and others) so very much that He came down to earth and died for me. I realized that Jesus was God-in-theFlesh that humbled Himself and layed down His life so that I could be forgiven of my sins. I was really convicted of my sins and was so thankful that He had been so loving to my sinful self and I earnestly and sincerely prayed the sinners pray to God and I was so glad to be forgiven, and to become a child of God. Even with the illness my life has been so much better since I was born-again and I greatly prefer this over being a non-believer that is not ill .

Now, I am not saying that God gave me my illness or that He did not allow my illness to mend but if I were not ill during the last two years I would not have been home and reading the Bible, I would not have find out how to be forgiven/born-again, and I may not have become a Christian . So illness is not necessarily always a negative thing and can be used for good. During the fifteen months after I became ill and before I was saved I had been going to doctors and getting tests done. The doctors could not find anything abnormal and I remained ill. I am very, very glad that the doctors did not find anything though because I became born-again and forgiven due to the illness which kept me at home.

Since I became a Christian I have been praying and asking God to help me with my illness and I have continued to get tests done by doctors because God can heal Christians by the use of medicine or He can heal us supernaturally, but only if the healing is within His will. My illness has improved quite a bit since last August and I do hope that God helps me with it even more, but only if it is within His will for me to be healed even more so. I am not blaming God at all nor am I angry at Him in the least for my illness not being fully healed because He might fully heal me at anytime and if it is not within His will for me to be healed or it is not in His will for me to be healed at this time then I will not be upset or allow my illness to hinder my life any longer. With God's love, grace, sustenance and help I will worship & love God, start a family, provide for my future family and live an unhampered life-with or without my illness.

People being healed by God is a great thing and it sometimes does happen, but just like with other things we must only ask for things that are within God's will and we should not be asking for things that God does not want for us because asking for things that are not within His will is futile. As we mature as Christians, we begin to increasingly want what God wants for us and always wanting to do what is in His will for us to do. Due to this we should be asking for His will to be done-in all situations-we should not be asking for frivolous things nor asking for things that are against His will. When Christians ask for God's will to be done in a situation great things happen but if we ask for something contrary to God's will it will be fruitless because no matter how much faith a Christian has that something will be done, if it is against what God wants or if God's will is for it to happen differently or at a different time then the person's faith will not change God's will and what He wills will happen.

Illness is usually a negative thing but does it say anywhere in the New Testament that it can not be used for good and does it say in the New Testament that we as Christians will always be of perfect health unless we lack sufficient faith? Even though it is sometimes not readily obvious to the person that is ill, Illness can be and sometimes is beneficial, just as the thorn in Paul's flesh was, as well as Job with his afflictions. Healthy and rich may seem to be the obvious preferred way to be but illness as well as poverty is sometimes used for good and is defintiely not always a sign of weak faith, unrepentant sins, or a lack of humbleness.

 

[Andrew]

Thanks for your testimony A Sheep!

But do you know that Jesus did not just bear your sins on the cross that you might be right with God forever, but that he also bore your sickness and pains on the cross that you might have health? It's called the double cure.

check out this thread in the Gen Theology section for more:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/23201.html

 

[Susan]

Originally posted by A Sheep
Someone that I love suggested that I post my testimony and my opinion on illness/healing in Christians. It is relevant to the issue of faith and healing(or lack thereof):

Back in April of 2000 I started to have constant and inveterate abdominal pains. Due to the illness I was forced to discontinue attending school. Whilst I was home ill I began to read the Bible-online and in print-and I also read Christian apologetics and theology sites. Then one day in early August of 2001 while I was looking up some Christian sites, Praise God that I came upon some Christian sites that contained the truth, how to be forgiven and how to be born-again. I read for a few hours about Jesus being God and how He loved me(and others) so very much that He came down to earth and died for me. I realized that Jesus was God-in-theFlesh that humbled Himself and layed down His life so that I could be forgiven of my sins. I was really convicted of my sins and was so thankful that He had been so loving to my sinful self and I earnestly and sincerely prayed the sinners pray to God and I was so glad to be forgiven, and to become a child of God. Even with the illness my life has been so much better since I was born-again and I greatly prefer this over being a non-believer that is not ill .

Now, I am not saying that God gave me my illness or that He did not allow my illness to mend but if I were not ill during the last two years I would not have been home and reading the Bible, I would not have find out how to be forgiven/born-again, and I may not have become a Christian . So illness is not necessarily always a negative thing and can be used for good. During the fifteen months after I became ill and before I was saved I had been going to doctors and getting tests done. The doctors could not find anything abnormal and I remained ill. I am very, very glad that the doctors did not find anything though because I became born-again and forgiven due to the illness which kept me at home.

Since I became a Christian I have been praying and asking God to help me with my illness and I have continued to get tests done by doctors because God can heal Christians by the use of medicine or He can heal us supernaturally, but only if the healing is within His will. My illness has improved quite a bit since last August and I do hope that God helps me with it even more, but only if it is within His will for me to be healed even more so. I am not blaming God at all nor am I angry at Him in the least for my illness not being fully healed because He might fully heal me at anytime and if it is not within His will for me to be healed or it is not in His will for me to be healed at this time then I will not be upset or allow my illness to hinder my life any longer. With God's love, grace, sustenance and help I will worship & love God, start a family, provide for my future family and live an unhampered life-with or without my illness.

People being healed by God is a great thing and it sometimes does happen, but just like with other things we must only ask for things that are within God's will and we should not be asking for things that God does not want for us because asking for things that are not within His will is futile. As we mature as Christians, we begin to increasingly want what God wants for us and always wanting to do what is in His will for us to do. Due to this we should be asking for His will to be done-in all situations-we should not be asking for frivolous things nor asking for things that are against His will. When Christians ask for God's will to be done in a situation great things happen but if we ask for something contrary to God's will it will be fruitless because no matter how much faith a Christian has that something will be done, if it is against what God wants or if God's will is for it to happen differently or at a different time then the person's faith will not change God's will and what He wills will happen.

Illness is usually a negative thing but does it say anywhere in the New Testament that it can not be used for good and does it say in the New Testament that we as Christians will always be of perfect health unless we lack sufficient faith? Even though it is sometimes not readily obvious to the person that is ill, Illness can be and sometimes is beneficial, just as the thorn in Paul's flesh was, as well as Job with his afflictions. Healthy and rich may seem to be the obvious preferred way to be but illness as well as poverty is sometimes used for good and is defintiely not always a sign of weak faith, unrepentant sins, or a lack of humbleness.

Amen. I praise God that you have such a testimony, and that God has worked so greatly in your life.

 

[1hope]

I just thought I should say that I have been having some good days lately with my health (if you couldn't tell that by the over developed since of humor I tend to show in the fellowship forum!) Again I want to thank the people on this thread for all their support. A lot of what has been said here has helped me a great deal.

 

[SnuP]

"The scripture does not say that God caused the sickness. "

Ecclesiastes 7:14 "When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other..."

you're wrong snup and the bible even says you're wrong EXPLICITLY.

It is interesting to note that when I made this statement I was talking specifically about John 9. This perticular aproach by Louis is call redirecting or misdirecting. Anyways he failed to answer my statement, but let us lood a Ecc. 7 

Ecclesiastes 7
1 A good name is better than fine perfume,

Jesus made of Himself no reputation because He wanted the Father to be glorified

and the day of death better than the day of birth.
2 It is better to go to a house of mourning
than to go to a house of feasting,
for death is the destiny of every man;
the living should take this to heart.
3 Sorrow is better than laughter,
because a sad face is good for the heart.

Paul tells us to think on good things, to set on mind on things that are a blessing

4 The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning,

Do you really think that the wisdom of God will lead to morning? 

but the heart of fools is in the house of pleasure.
5 It is better to heed a wise man’s rebuke
than to listen to the song of fools.
6 Like the crackling of thorns under the pot,
so is the laughter of fools.
This too is meaningless.
7 Extortion turns a wise man into a fool,
and a bribe corrupts the heart.
8 The end of a matter is better than its beginning,

Does that last statement make sence to anyone?

and patience is better than pride.
9 Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit,

Your spirit can not be provoked outside of God, because it is from God and of the same essence as God, rather it is the heart that is provoked.

for anger resides in the lap of fools.
10 Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?”
For it is not wise to ask such questions.
11 Wisdom, like an inheritance, is a good thing
and benefits those who see the sun.
12 Wisdom is a shelter
as money is a shelter,

When were we ever incouraged by God to seek the shelter of money? 

but the advantage of knowledge is this:
that wisdom preserves the life of its possessor.
13Consider what God has done:
Who can straighten
what he has made crooked?
14 When times are good, be happy;
but when times are bad, consider:
God has made the one
as well as the other.

God has not made bad times, rather man and satan makes times bad. 

Therefore, a man cannot discover
anything about his future.

What then is prophecy, that last statement is just false.  And since it is offered as the conclusion of God making both the bad and the good it makes the other statement false is questionable also.

15In this meaningless life of mine I have seen both of these:

Solomons life was not meaningless, otherwise God would have never showed up at the dedication of the temple and Jesus would have not sighted him as an example.

a righteous man perishing in his righteousness,
and a wicked man living long in his wickedness.

This statement contredicts what his own father said when he said that he had never seen the rightous forsaken.

Conclusion:  Eccl. 7 makes for poor doctrine.  And is contrary to the word of God.

 

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"I say agian, where did Job pray?"

In terms of what??? there are many times he cried out to God. that's what praying is. What's really funny is if you had read the book you would see that

Let me find a verse just to apese your rallying call for quaf it seems..LOL..

Job 12:4
"I have become a laughingstock to my friends though I called upon God and he answered me-a mere laughingstock, though righteous and blameless."

[Then Job answered the Lord, and said,
"I know that Thou canst do all things,
And that no purpose of Thine can be thwarted.
'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?'
"Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me,
Which I did not know. "
'Hear, now, and I will speak;
I WILL ASK THEE, AND DO THOU INSTRUCT ME.'
"I have heard of Thee by the hearing of the ear;
But now my eye sees Thee;
Therefore I retract,
And I repent in dust and ashes."] Job 42:1-6

[And the Lord restored the fortunes of Job when he prayed for his friends, and the Lord increased all that Job had twofold.] Job 42:10

 

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by SUNSTONE
I say agian, where did Job pray?
I have read the book many times, atleast 4 if not 5 or 6 times.
Not praying, is not a sin. The bible says you have not because you ask not.

I never said anything about dying of old age. I don't know much about demonic sickness. I am not saying they are or aren't, but God hasn't taught me, so I shall wait for that time. But I do know is there are gifts that should be used. You are not useing them at all.

[is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray overhim, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, AND if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.]

You say I am confused, tell me what the definition of sick is?
Tell me what is the gift of healings, and the gift of miracles are?

God did allow the devil to stike Job with these problems, but it was for a very, very short time. Tell me how the story ends, does Job stay in his condition? Did he die that way?
Job said, I know you can do all things. God restored Job after he prayed for his friends, then Job lived a very long and healthy full life afterwards.
Do you really think that God wants to keep you or anyone else in fear, or pain for long periods of time?

What does the word "We" mean in John chapter 9. Didn't Jesus heal that man?

1. What does the word "we" mean in John chapter 9?
2. What is the definition of sick?
3. What are the gifts Healing and Miracles?
4. When should they be used?
5. When you get a cold do you pray and expect a healing?
6. Have you ever had a healing experience?
7. Have you ever seen someone healed with no help from doctors?


I am not against doctors, but if you choose to build ways to fix medical problems only with doctors. That is what I call building that part of your house on sand.
God allows the devil to roam the earth to cause trials for us. David said in proverbs, "test your servant Lord". He was braging on the power of God.
Like the demon who said "Jesus I know, Paul I know, but who are you?"
Jesus set the way and Paul followed but the other man saw what the apostles were doing, and wanted a part of that.
This man was weak in faith, and you hear us talking about people who do not recieve a healing as not having enough faith.
This is not meant to be an insult, or condemning in any fashion, but rather to show a test of strength.To let you know where you stand next to Jesus the example.
Paul considered the Christian walk a "race".
To run a race you must train first, this is done with the word.Jesus said you must be born again of the spirit.When you are born again you need the word which is like milk for a baby, but when you get older you need meat to help you grow(I could be wrong on meat and milk, but this is what I think it is talking about) But James also says don't be just hearers of the word(milk), decieving your own selves, but doers of the word(meat).

So whether God allows you to get sick or wether its totally the devils fault, is not the issue. The issue is what to do and expect from this trial.
If you don't see the results that Jesus does, then you know you haven't obtained perfection. If that last statement makes you mad, then you probably have a pride issue, thinking yourself better than you should.
This is why God said in his word, "God will not be mocked, you shall reap what you sow", and also "Man ruins his life and he rages in his heart against the Lord".

So if you sow to the flesh more than the spirit, ask yourself these questions.
Why am I surprised that I don't see God in my life as much as I would like to?Why do my prayers almost never get answered?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"I say agian, where did Job pray?"

In terms of what??? there are many times he cried out to God. that's what praying is. What's really funny is if you had read the book you would see that

Let me find a verse just to apese your rallying call for quaf it seems..LOL..

Job 12:4
"I have become a laughingstock to my friends though I called upon God and he answered me-a mere laughingstock, though righteous and blameless."

Louis,

I'm truely sorry if I have offended you.  According to your "scripture ref" you believe that you have become a laughing stock because of your righteousness and blamelessness.

Louis, we have supplied you with more than enough scriptures (1 should have sufficed) to back our beliefs up.  Yet you have responded back as if we are idiots. 

You respond with scriptures that have nothing to do with what the subject matter is.  You seem to believe that the scriptures you give nullify our scriptures. 

We've given you the Strong's Concordance definitions and you've said it is wrong    We've given dictionary definitions and you've said those are wrong   

It seems that all you're interested in is arguing.  We've even posted your own statements and you obviously did not realize it was your own statement because you turned and argued with it.  What's the deal?  You've been rude and argumentive from the beginning.

What would you think if that was the way that we debated with you?  Would you not think some of the things that we are thinking?  Don't say "no", cause' you're not that blameless.

Anyway Louis, we really desire to carry on a productive discussion with you, but so far you have made it impossible.  Some of us have stopped reading and responding to your posts at all.  Is that what you want?

My desire is not to tear down but to build up.  We need your help too Louis.

In His Grip,

Barbara

 

[LouisBooth]

"but only if the healing is within His will. "

AMEN!!

 

[SnuP]

Louis, did you notice post 172. I'd lkke to see how you respond.

 

[LouisBooth]

"This perticular aproach by Louis is call redirecting or misdirecting. Anyways he failed to answer my statement, but let us lood a Ecc. 7
"

LOL. No snup I was not misdirecting. I was speaking to you to what you're exactly talking about. You're the one that jumps all over the map.

"God has not made bad times, rather man and satan makes times bad. "

*sigh* wrong wrong wrong. This verse is a summation of the previous passage. It seems clear to me you just want to dismiss what the bible says that you don't like. I think Christ would be sorely disappointing in you doing that snup.

"What then is prophecy, that last statement is just false. "

again you're taking it out of context. This conclusion is not false anymore then christ saying I am the way the truth and the life is false. You can't find anything out about your future in terms of actions sent by God in context of Ecc 7:14.

"1. What does the word "we" mean in John chapter 9?
2. What is the definition of sick?
3. What are the gifts Healing and Miracles?
4. When should they be used?
5. When you get a cold do you pray and expect a healing?
6. Have you ever had a healing experience?
7. Have you ever seen someone healed with no help from doctors?"

1. irrevant question. The we is christians showing that we should do God's work as christ.
2. Sick: any physical aliment
3. this is not a 'gift'
4. when God wills it
5. yes, though sometimes he says no
6. yes
7. yes

"So whether God allows you to get sick or wether its totally the devils fault, is not the issue. "

LOL LOL LOL!!! that's EXACTLY the issue. God allows people to be sick, he even causes it sometimes and that's what the bible declares. That's EXACTLY the issue.


"Why do my prayers almost never get answered?"

Umm..I dont' know about you but my prayers ALWAYS get answered. I haven't had one unanswered prayer yet.


"Yet you have responded back as if we are idiots. "

Nope, I would say you're brainwashed, or unwilling to read scripture.


"You respond with scriptures that have nothing to do with what the subject matter is. "

No, I reply with scripture that speaks exactly to the topic

You: God doesn't cause sickness and its not in his will for people to be sick so if they are they dont' have the right kind of faith
Me: bible says otherwise (I have shown at least 3 biblical examples as well as a host of scripture to back up those examples).
You: you are wrong
Me: I am wrong if the bible is wrong, if the bible is right, then so am I.



"We've given you the Strong's Concordance definitions and you've said it is wrong "

LOL, none of which saying or implies healing. It does imply salvation or being saved, which is something totally different.

"We need your help too Louis"

I know, that's why I'm trying to show you the truth of God that he has shown me.

 

[LouisBooth]

Like the song says, "Home free...eventually...the ulimate healing we will be home free...home free..I wanna be.."

I"m so looking forward to leaving this earth. why? Because it will be the ulimate healing, where my perishable body will be renewed and made imperishable. I will no longer be sick, I will no longer tire or have pain. These things do not mean I was sinful, only living in a fallen world. Paul says we are to rejoice at suffering, for we are fellowshipping with our Lord. All the people of history have been sick and died of unnatural causes and been perfectly in the will of God, as will people of the future. Why? Because God is sovergn. He sends the good and the bad times to strenghten and teach us. He wills it. that's what it comes down to. He is concerned about our spirit, not our body, for it will pass. "in this way they will lawy up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truely life."

Be mindful of the kingdom while living in this fallen world. One of my fav poems had a line in it...

"I asked for great strenght that I might accoplish great things in his name, and I was given infirmary, that I might learn to humbly obey..."

 

[SnuP]

I was still only talking about John 9. In John 9 it does not say that God caused the sickness.

Out of all of my critisism of Eccl 7 you only found two to disagree with. Well that is interesting, isn't it.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Out of all of my critisism of Eccl 7 you only found two to disagree with. Well that is interesting, isn't it."

no, I disagree with a lot, but since you just want to not look at the passage as a whole and want to break it up to take it out of context, I only focused on the approprate part. Just because I dont' answer doesn't mean I agree snup.

 

[SnuP]

Therefore, a man cannot discover
anything about his future.

This is a blanket statement that even when taken in context is still false. And the conclusion is based on the infalability of the previous statement. If the logical conclusions is incorrect and there can be no other conclusion from the given data. Then the given data (or the statement that God makes both good and bad times) must have an error. Basic mathmatics and logic. I'm sorry if you cannot follow this logic.

 

[SnuP]

If many of the statement of an arguement are inherrently wrong then the conclusion will also be inherrently wrong. In fact if even one statement is wrong then the whole arguement needs to be reexamined. That is the major problem with Eccl.

 

[LouisBooth]

"This is a blanket statement that even when taken in context is still false. "

Not at all. do you know EXACTLY what God has planned for you in your future. I mean die hard facts? no, you don't and you never can, for sometimes he speaks to us like Abraham and says go, I'll show you where later.

"I'm sorry if you cannot follow this logic"

LOL, snup buddy, you're the last person who needs to lecture anyone on logic the bible is true and the statement in Ecc 7:14 is true as well.

"If many of the statement of an arguement are inherrently wrong then the conclusion will also be inherrently wrong. "

LOL what?? Not at all because they are not a if A then B statements. They are descriptions with a summation.

 

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by LouisBooth


"1. What does the word "we" mean in John chapter 9?
2. What is the definition of sick?
3. What are the gifts Healing and Miracles?
4. When should they be used?
5. When you get a cold do you pray and expect a healing?
6. Have you ever had a healing experience?
7. Have you ever seen someone healed with no help from doctors?"

1. irrevant question. The we is christians showing that we should do God's work as christ.
2. Sick: any physical aliment
3. this is not a 'gift'
4. when God wills it
5. yes, though sometimes he says no
6. yes
7. yes

"So whether God allows you to get sick or wether its totally the devils fault, is not the issue. "

LOL LOL LOL!!! that's EXACTLY the issue. God allows people to be sick, he even causes it sometimes and that's what the bible declares. That's EXACTLY the issue.


"Why do my prayers almost never get answered?"

Umm..I dont' know about you but my prayers ALWAYS get answered. I haven't had one unanswered prayer yet.  

1.We should do the works of Christ. Now look at the passage again. "But it was in order that the works of God might be displayed in him.We must work the works of Him who sent Me," 

A. Now show me where it was Jesus will not to heal someone? 

3.You say Healings and Miracles are not gifts.       

a)"Now concerning spiritual gifts,"

b)""Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit"     ",and to another gifts of healing....... and to another the effecting of miracles" 1 cor 12: 1+4+9

B.What do you mean by saying they are not gifts?

4. When God wills it.

C. How or when do you know it is God's will to heal?

6+7 .

D.Tell me your experiences of being healed, and tell me about when you saw someone else healed?

 

You say that God answers all of your prayers. I know what you mean, its either yes, or no.

E. If you pray for something, and God doesn't answer your prayer(meaning you assume He said no) do you ask for that same prayer again?

You say the issue is God allows people to be, and to stay sick.

F. Show me where it was Jesus's will for people to be and to stay sick? I want to see read ink on this one please.

 

 

[SnuP]

Therefore, a man cannot discover
anything about his future.

Cannot discover anything.  Anything, as in nothing.  Can no nothing noda.  That is a blanket statement.  He says that I can know nothing about the future, not even a brief synopsis, nothing noda.  If I know anything about my future then this statement is untrue, apsolutely untrue.  And it is the same verse as God sends the good and the bad.  The same verse.  And it is the conclusion that he draws from the statement that God sends the good and the bad.  Something is wrong either with his logic (which I doubt) or with the thesis.

Can't discover anything.  That is all inculsive.  And their is not a qualifier to be found anywhere.  All inculsive.  Your the one changing the meaning of verses.