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Featured Could the prophet Elijah have altered history if he had NOT........

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by DennisTate, Dec 7, 2018 at 4:06 AM.

  1. No.... Elijah was perfect like Messiah Yeshua - Jesus and never sinned!

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  2. Yes.... if he had faced Queen Jezebel and done a II King 1 sort of thing!

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  3. No

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  4. Yes

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  5. I sure hope that he does better this time around!

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  1. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    ... RAN AWAY from Queen Jezebel and her armies?

    Should Christians support Rebuilding of Jerusalem Third Temple.

    Would any of you debaters like to elaborate on the theory that this pastor probably put forward?

    This may get your creative juices working:
    Multiverse Theory and multiple Ezekiel 37 type events.
     
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  2. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member

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    Why build it?
    As Jesus said:-
    john:4-21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    Note verse 24, no mention of needing a temple, ritual or sacrifices.
     
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  3. myst33

    myst33 Member

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    Multiverse in the context of quantum mechanics is actually an atheist attempt to explain out the fine tuning of our universe.

    They say there are all universes, ones with fine tuning for life and also other ones without it. When subatomic particle "makes a choice", the other possibility happens in another universe.
     
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  4. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    I could be wrong... but my idea is that we need a Jerusalem Third Temple complex in order to set the stage for the fulfillment of
    Ezekiel 47
    which will play a huge role in stabilization of the climate in the Middle East.

    And he brought me back unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward; (for the forefront of the house was toward the east;) and the waters came down from under, from the right side of the house, on the south of the altar.

    2 Then he brought me out by the way of the gate northward, and led me round by the way without unto the outer gate, by the way of [the gate] that looketh toward the east; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.

    3 When the man went forth eastward with the line in his hand, he measured a thousand cubits, and he caused me to pass through the waters, waters that were to the ankles.

    ......

    8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue forth toward the eastern region, and shall go down into the Arabah; and they shall go toward the sea; into the sea [shall the waters go] which were made to issue forth; and the waters shall be healed.

    9 And it shall come to pass, that every living creature which swarmeth, in every place whither the rivers come, shall live; and there shall be a very great multitude of fish; for these waters are come thither, and [the waters of the sea] shall be healed, and everything shall live whithersoever the river cometh.

    10 And it shall come to pass, that fishers shall stand by it: from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim shall be a place for the spreading of nets; their fish shall be after their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
     
  5. myst33

    myst33 Member

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    Ezekiel was written before the second temple, not after it.
     
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  6. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member

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    As you may have guesed from my post I think the idea is only usefull in the bathroom.

    God is in controll, he doesn't need us to try and engineer the second coming.
    Our role is to witness to Jesus.
     
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  7. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    And they are incorrect because I am convinced that all potential universes will not happen.... I believe that each new time line..... Each new example of applied Multiverse Theory (by G-d) will have more and more and more and more of the Holy Spirit poured out..... which will lead to greater levels of justice and Shalom... .in each new time line.
     
  8. myst33

    myst33 Member

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    What about this?

    8 And he said to me, This is the water that goes forth to Galilee that lies eastward, and it is gone down to Arabia, and has reached as far as to the sea to the outlet of the water: and it shall heal the waters.
    9 And it shall come to pass, [that] every animal of living [and] moving creatures, all on which the river shall come, shall live: and there shall be there very many fish; for this water shall go thither, and it shall heal [them], and they shall live: everything on which the river shall come shall live.

    Ez 37

    "So he traveled throughout Galilee, preaching in their synagogues and driving out demons."
    Mk 1:39

    Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said [Ezekiel?], rivers of living water will flow from within them."
    J 7:38
     
  9. myst33

    myst33 Member

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    I am more for Leibnizian view that God created the best possible world. But it can include different stages of creation, too.

    However, I have a problem with God's eternity and impossiblity to change and the fact that He created something that did not exist before...
     
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  10. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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  11. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, history would be different . . . of course.

    But, all along, Jesus has been meant to be the One who would do things right. So, failures by Elijah and King David can help to bring out how only God's own Son ever could be the only One who would do things really right and make things really right.

    And Jesus does this in us, not merely by having outward buildings put up.

    And the writer of Hebrews says we Jesus people "have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat." (in Hebrews 13:10)

    So, changing history, by politically reuniting the land of Israel, I consider, would not have brought the kingdom which "does not come with observation." (Luke 17:20-21) We need the kingdom which is God's own realm of how He is in love and what He experiences and enjoys in His realm of existence > His kingdom which we grow in sharing with Him in His own love "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5).

    And our Apostle Paul talks about how we in Jesus are "rooted and grounded in love" (in Ephesians 3:17). So, our soil of our identity is not with some part of this earth, but we are in God's own love in sharing with Jesus, experiencing this more and more as we love the way Jesus has loved >

    "And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

    And, before this scripture, Paul also says > "forgiving one another, even as God", in Ephesians 4:31-32.

    So, this is where we are feeding on and benefitting from all God means by His promises. Does this mean that the real promised land is the good soil of God's love . . . in our nature . . . curing us more and more to be like Jesus and to forgive "even as God" in us shares this with us??? Whoever and whatever is the true Israel, then, mainly we need to be rooted in God's own love so we are becoming like Jesus and loving and forgiving in sharing with Him. This prepares us for whatever God knows is really going to happen in history.

    There is history, though, and I hear a lot about what will happen historically with Jews, but what goes on outwardly is not God's priority, is it? So, what needs to be the priority of our attention, then? We can be busy with changing politics and geography, but are we mainly busy with seeking first (Matthew 6:33) how God has us become in His love, how we become like Jesus?

    I see a lot of TV ministry with attention to history making, but not at least as much attention to seeking how we become like Jesus and how He in us has us loving any and all people. Or, there is a lot of attention to how to get myself blessed, but not much about caring as much about others as I care about my own self.

    If Jews want what is their land, they need to be busy with loving any and all others as their own selves, not only concerned about their own identity. I mean, if Jesus means to love our neighbor as ourselves . . . by caring as much about others as ourselves . . . like Jesus was caring about us as Himself by leaving Heaven and coming to His cross for us . . . we need to feed on this example.

    But instead, it appears that an amount of ministry focuses on getting and holding on to our own little heavens or a piece of land. So, even if some number of people are numbly doing this, I need to not be merely busy with pointing at how others are misleading themselves, but I need to submit to God for how He knows I myself need real correction > Hebrews 12:4-11 < this is about how God Himself is able to change us, not only our own willing and disciplining our own selves. We grow in God's love, with His almighty self control and His wisdom to guide where our attention belongs.
     
  12. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    HI this is a complicated question as the nation of Israel now is both a people with a great future in the plans of God and He will perform every word of prophecy even to great nuances which we have surely missed recorded for us. The over arching promise to Abraham extends to Israel today in that the LORD will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse them. We see Israel longs for the restoration of the temple and has made preparation for it. The prophetic destiny is the temple need be built for the man of sin to be revealed. The time of Jacob's trouble preceded the glorious reign of Christ. I suppose we should support it as it is necessary but will not come to pass until the LORD works it out anyways. These things are ordained as the LORD knows the day and hour so I do not think we can hasten or delay that outcome. I pray for Israel and share prophetic events that are to come with many Jews that are very specific that they might see that history is following a prophetic outline. If you oppose it not wanting to set up the temple which antichrist will use I can get that. But if that is Israels heart would it not be blessing them to support them in this? It is a bit of a dilemma.
     
  13. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Active Member Supporter

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    Listen to your sentence. Read it carefully. What you are saying is Christians should bless and sanction the building of a third temple so that the Jewish people can be "tricked" into worshiping an "antichrist". How is that a commandment from Jesus Christ of Nazareth? Seriously, this is the main reason I left dispensatinal theology. I want no part in causing the Jewish people that I care and love so much, to be led astray into darkness and not into the light of the TRUTH. Spread the "GOOD NEWS"!
    ( I can barley keep my tears back)
     
  14. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    This idea is difficult but a sovereign people should be able to make their own choices like Israel declaring Jerusalem the capitol. My support of their right to do what they want is not supporting the antichrist in anyway. I see this as a destiny. In the end if you read Isaiah 61 we see the acceptable day of the LORD contrasted with the day of vengeance. But if you read what comes out of the day of vengeance you see the LORD does great things in it.
    To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
    And the day of vengeance of our God;
    To comfort all who mourn,
    3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
    To give them beauty for ashes,
    The oil of joy for mourning,
    The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
    That they may be called trees of righteousness,
    The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
    The temple is a building and the one who is coming is coming building the temple is the means by which Israel will recognize that Jesus was right when the antichrist is revealed. This is destiny and I am no way in support of evil use this subject to share with many Jews. You are free to follow your conscience and oppose it.
     
  15. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    You don't know how profoundly glad I am to get your answer......... an astonishing number of Christians seem to believe that G-d is like an off the scale cranky Hollywood Producer who has absolute control over all events...... and has actually given us humans essentially no freedom to alter the plans of G-d!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Luke 16:8
    I Corinthians 1

     
  16. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    But what would happen if a relatively ethical Christian.... and / or Messianic Jew and / or Messianic Gentile..... or Jew..... .looked at the story of Hushai, King David and King Absolom..... and volunteered to G-d to take over the seat/ throne of Ahithophel............ that is comparable to the Throne of the Accuser of the Brethren??????

    Since Satan stole the Throne of Adam.... would this not be rather appropriate?????

    A message from Adam to all of humanity as given to Pastor Rick Joyner!


    Oskar Schindler...... did something along the line of what Hushai the friend of King David did????
     
  17. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well, God is the Supreme Being, including of control, but not only control. Control for Satan and a number of humans is an ego issue. But God, instead of being cranky, is humble. Jesus is so unconceited, that Jesus God's own Son left Heaven itself in order to reach us and share with us . . . though He does have such control.

    And when humans take things the wrong way, you can see how God makes good use of this, bringing His good ends . . . including in the case of how Joseph was sold into slavery but God used that for His all-loving good > Genesis 37-50.

    So, how God is in all-control is good. How Satan and egotistical humans want control is not good. Satan is jealous that God is supreme in all which is good.

    I do not mean that God causes everything. But He is in control, including how >

    "God resists the proud" (in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5).

    So, yes it is wrong to be the cranky one who is being resisted, since that one could be sharing with God and benefitting from how His control is all-loving.

    Control, knowing . . . what can be a major thing for ones who want to have their own way. But there is a reason why God knows all things, including of the future. If you do not know what you will be doing at exactly ten o'clock tomorrow, you are not in control, are you?? There is a reason why God knows, because He is in control. And by submitting to Him in His peace, we can share in all the good of this.
     
  18. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    I will now explain the rest of that sermon.....

    The pastor theorized that just after the miracle of:
    1 Kings 18

    Now therefore send, and gather to me all Israel unto mount Carmel, and the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the Asherah four hundred, that eat at Jezebel's table.

    20 So Ahab sent unto all the children of Israel, and gathered the prophets together unto mount Carmel.

    21 And Elijah came near unto all the people, and said, How long go ye limping between the two sides? if Jehovah be God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

    22 Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, am left a prophet of Jehovah; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men.

    23 Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on the wood, and put no fire under; and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on the wood, and put no fire under.

    24 And call ye on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of Jehovah; and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.

    25 And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your god, but put no fire under.

    26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped about the altar which was made.

    27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud; for he is a god: either he is musing, or he is gone aside, or he is on a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth and must be awaked.

    28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lances, till the blood gushed out upon them.

    29 And it was so, when midday was past, that they prophesied until the time of the offering of the [evening] oblation; but there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.

    30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me; and all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of Jehovah that was thrown down.

    31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of Jehovah came, saying, Israel shall be thy name.

    32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of Jehovah; and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.

    33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid it on the wood. And he said, Fill four jars with water, and pour it on the burnt-offering, and on the wood.

    34 And he said, Do it the second time; and they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time; and they did it the third time.

    35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.

    36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the [evening] oblation, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, O Jehovah, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.

    37 Hear me, O Jehovah, hear me, that this people may know that thou, Jehovah, art God, and [that] thou hast turned their heart back again.

    38 Then the fire of Jehovah fell, and consumed the burnt-offering, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

    39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, Jehovah, he is God; Jehovah, he is God.

    40 and Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them; and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

    41 And Elijah said unto Ahab, Get thee up, eat and drink; for there is the sound of abundance of rain.

    The pastor speculated that at this point........
    the people were all set up to return to G-d but......

    Elijah decided to run away from Queen Jezebel and her armies!

    1 Kings 19

    And Ahab told Jezebel all that Elijah had done, and withal how he had slain all the prophets with the sword.

    2 Then Jezebel send a messenger unto Elijah, saying, So let the gods do to me, and more also, if I make not thy life as the life of one of them by to-morrow about this time.

    3 And when he saw that, he arose, and went for his life, and came to Beer-sheba, which belongeth to Judah, and left his servant there.

    4 But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper-tree: and he requested for himself that he might die, and said, It is enough; now, O Jehovah, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers.

    5 And he lay down and slept under a juniper-tree; and, behold, an angel touched him, and said unto him, Arise and eat.

    6 And he looked, and, behold, there was at his head a cake baken on the coals, and a cruse of water. And he did eat and drink, and laid him down again.

    7 And the angel of Jehovah came again the second time, and touched him, and said, Arise and eat, because the journey is too great for thee.

    8 And he arose, and did eat and drink, and went in the strength of that food forty days and forty nights unto Horeb the mount of God.

    9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of Jehovah came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

    10 And he said, I have been very jealous for Jehovah, the God of hosts; for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword: and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.

    11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before Jehovah. And, behold, Jehovah passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before Jehovah; but Jehovah was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but Jehovah was not in the earthquake: 12 and after the earthquake a fire; but Jehovah was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

    13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entrance of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?

    Based on the questions....... "What doest thou here, Elijah?
    "What doest thou here, Elijah?"

    Would you say that it is possible that Mt. Horeb MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN where G-d wanted Elijah to be?

    That is what the Pastor speculated...... and he stated that maybe, just maybe......
    what G-d had wanted was for Elijah to face off with Queen Jezebel and her armies and......
    do something like.....
    what happens in
    2 Kings 1



    9 Then [the king] sent unto him a captain of fifty with his fifty. And he went up to him: and, behold, he was sitting on the top of the hill. And he spake unto him, O man of God, the king hath said, Come down.

    10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

    11 And again he sent unto him another captain of fifty and his fifty. And he answered and said unto him, O man of God, thus hath the king said, Come down quickly.

    12 And Elijah answered and said unto them, If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

    13 And again he sent the captain of a third fifty with his fifty. And the third captain of fifty went up, and came and fell on his knees before Elijah, and besought him, and said unto him, O man of God, I pray thee, let my life, and the life of these fifty thy servants, be precious in thy sight.

    14 Behold, there came fire down from heaven, and consumed the two former captains of fifty with their fifties; but now let my life be precious in thy sight.

    15 And the angel of Jehovah said unto Elijah, Go down with him: be not afraid of him. And he arose, and went down with him unto the king.

    And the pastor speculated that IF... Elijah had faced Queen Jezebel and her armies......
    and been used to do another miracle like this......
    then this would have transitioned the government of Israel.... and the worship of G-d could have been restored to Israel at that time..... and the captivity of the northern kingdom of Israel could have been delayed and delayed.... .for some time....... perhaps years or decades.......

    I have read that the destruction of Nineveh in the time of Jonah was delayed by at least forty years or so......
     
  19. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member

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    Thrones are only taken by the lawfully occupent or by superior force.

    Who is the legal occupent.

    Is it not Jesus.
     
  20. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    Yes........ and Messiah Yeshua - Jesus is meeting many, many, many people these days in near death experiences, (little Colton Burpo for one)..... and Messiah Yeshua - Jesus is keeping many of His promises by doing this but..... .Messiah Yeshua - Jesus died and was resurrected about 1985 - 1990 years ago............... but just as John the Baptist was the Elijah that was known to the people of that generation so also it seems as if Messiah Yeshua - Jesus is raising up two witnesses......... (is the modern David one of the two witnesses or a separate major leader who is raised up at this time????)......... so that the people of this generation have a clear picture of the transition of government in the Kingdom of G-d.

    Jeremiah 30:9

    Orthodox and Chassidic Jews write and teach about a Moshiach ben Yosef / Joseph from the Tribe of Ephrayim who will be anointed for warfare in the latter days..... and who will do lots of things such as rebuild the Jerusalem Third Temple and / or the Temple Complex of Ezekiel 40 - 48 ....... then they talk about Moshiach ben David.... who will resurrect Moshiach ben Ephrayim after he is killed.........

    The thouight has crossed my mind... .could this Jewish prediction be true????

    Could their be a David raised up for the Jewish people previous to the full fledged fulfillment of Zechariah 14 who the Jews will know as one of theirs..............

    and could Moshiach ben David / Messiah son of David...... be when the two witnesses are raised to their feet after being dead for three and a half days??????

    Jeremiah 23:5
    I believe that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus is fulfilling a number of His promises when He meets with his servants at this time who have a brush with death...... then He reviews their lives with Him...... then they are resurrected and given amazingly powerful messages for our time.... that are worded in a context that all of us can understand clearly.

    Hebrews 9:27
    I believe that former Atheist Howard Storm Ph. D. actually died..... but then was resurrected by Messiah Yeshua - Jesus and give a powerful and clear message for our time so that we could begin to look at Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and the minor prophets...... clearly and plainly......

    John 16:25
    "but the time cometh" = the future, (when humanity would have the technology to assist in bringing people back who have actually died..... .but these days... their spirit / soul can be brought back into their bodies)!

    Reverend Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience
    I believe that the Life Review of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus with Howard Storm..... was his judgment!

    I believe that Atheist Howard Storm's rescue from hell by Messiah Yeshua - Jesus makes him somewhat like Lazarus in another time period..... who may have been teaching people much as Howard Storm does in our time period.

    What Howard STorm teaches about the Kingdom of G-d is helping many of us to come to have a whole new respect for the major and minor prophets of the Jewish Bible.

    Reverend Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience

     
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