Could the impeachment process cost the Dems among Independents?

Aldebaran

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That's not true. The GOP witnesses also testified that Donald tried to condition a weapons deal on the president of a foreign government interfering in our election.

If the story from both sets of witnesses sounds "one side"d, that should probably tell people something.

"Both sets" of witnesses? What does that even mean? The Republicans didn't even get to call a single witness.
 
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Albion

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Trump's actions endangered Ukraine, a country that is a natural ally of the US, and furthered the interests of Russia, a country that is an enemy of free people everywhere.
What exactly makes Ukraine "a natural ally of the US?"
 
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GodLovesCats

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"Both sets" of witnesses? What does that even mean? The Republicans didn't even get to call a single witness.

Gordon Sondland said during his opening statement he is a lifelong Republican and voted for Trump three years ago.
 
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GodLovesCats

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What exactly makes Ukraine "a natural ally of the US?"

Russia is our enemy. Ukriane needs the United States to help fight off Russia, its biggest enemy, during a war that began in 2014. The U.S. has already vowed to never recognize the election that let Russia annex Crimea. So Ukraine has a good reason to be America's friend politically.
 
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A_Thinker

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What exactly makes Ukraine "a natural ally of the US?"
Ukraine is one of the nations which broke away from the Soviet Union (i.e. the Russian empire), which was an enemy of the US for the vast majority of its existence. Russia remains an official enemy of the US, and both nations still have nuclear weapons targeted at the cities of the other.

After the breakup of the Soviet Union, Ukraine gave up the nuclear weapons which were stationed inside their territory. Ukraine received security assurances from the US, Russia, and the UK that their territorial integrity would be respected and defended.

From Ukraine, Nuclear Weapons, and Security Assurances At a Glance | Arms Control Association

"At the time of Ukraine’s independence from the Soviet Union in 1991, Ukraine held the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world, including an estimated 1,800 strategic warheads, 176 long-range ballistic missiles, and 42 strategic bombers. By 1996, Ukraine had returned all of its nuclear warheads to Russia in exchange for economic aid and security assurances, and Ukraine became a non-nuclear weapon state party to the 1968 nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT). The last strategic nuclear delivery vehicle in Ukraine was eliminated in 2001 under the 1991 Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty (START). It took years of political maneuvering and diplomatic work, starting with the Lisbon Protocol in 1992, to remove the weapons and nuclear infrastructure from Ukraine.

1990 Declaration of Sovereignty

Partly in an effort to gain international recognition, Ukraine’s pre-independence movement supported efforts to join the NPT as a non-nuclear weapon state. With Ukraine’s July 16, 1990 Declaration of Sovereignty, Ukraine pledged “not to accept, produce, or acquire nuclear weapons." However, despite this public commitment, Ukrainian politicians were not entirely united by the idea. Some felt that Russia was a still a threat and that they should keep the weapons as a deterrent.

1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances

To solidify security commitments to Ukraine, the United States, Russia, and the United Kingdom signed the December 5, 1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances. A political agreement in accordance with the principles of the Helsinki Accords, the memorandum included security assurances against the threat or use of force against Ukraine’s territory or political independence. The countries promised to respect the sovereignty and existing borders of Ukraine. Parallel memorandums were signed for Belarus and Kazakhstan as well. In response, Ukraine officially acceded to the NPT as a non-nuclear weapon state on December 5, 1994. That move met the final condition for ratification of the START treaty, bringing the treaty into force for Ukraine

2009 Joint Declaration by Russia and the United States

Russia and the United States released a joint statement in 2009 confirming that the security assurances made in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum would still be valid after the START Treaty expired in 2009."
 
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Aldebaran

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Gordon Sondland said during his opening statement he is a lifelong Republican and voted for Trump three years ago.

And that means the Republicans are the ones who called him to testify?
 
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Aldebaran

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It means not all witnesses hate Trump and want him out of there for political reasons.

Ok, but my original point was that the Republicans didn't even get to call a single witness. That's why I look forward to what will happen when the Senate trial starts.
 
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GodLovesCats

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OK, but my original point was that the Republicans didn't even get to call a single witness. That's why I look forward to what will happen when the Senate trial starts.

It does not matter. They got to hear Republicans testify in the HR.

Who said the minority party is supposed to call witnesses, anyway?
 
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Aldebaran

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It does not matter. They got to hear Republicans testify in the HR.

Who said the minority party is supposed to call witnesses, anyway?

Yes, they got to hear Republicans that were going to say what the dems wanted to hear. A guy that suddenly remembers things that he had previously forgotten and doesn't take notes is a great example.
 
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whatbogsends

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Ok, but my original point was that the Republicans didn't even get to call a single witness. That's why I look forward to what will happen when the Senate trial starts.

As AThinker pointed out in post #124, Volker and Morrison were both on the Republicans list to testify. They were also on the Democrats list, but they were Republican witnesses, too.
 
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Aldebaran

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It does not matter. They got to hear Republicans testify in the HR.

Who said the minority party is supposed to call witnesses, anyway?

Nobody did.
Who said that the hearings were supposed to be fair, impartial, and get to the truth?
 
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Aldebaran

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Republicans got to call in one of the four law professors talking right now about Article 2 Section 4. In his opening statement, he said, "I am not a Trump supporter. In 2016 I voted against him."

Maybe that's why he was allowed to be called in.
Even then, one out of the four.
Can't wait for the tables to be turned in the Senate trial.
 
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