Could King David be raised up for the Jews decades before second coming of Jesus?

[DennisTate]

I have got to get back into this topic..... definitely some new info related to this in the past months!!!!!

 

[Supreme]

Don't buy it. King David ain't coming back.

 

[light upon light]

Don't buy it. King David ain't coming back.

I dunno.

I saw a "Bathsheba" ad on the internet last night... Maybe King David is coming after all?



On a more serious note, Jesus already fully explained how "return" actually works:

"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come.

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." - Matthew 11:11-15

And again:

"And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come?

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things.

But I say unto you, That Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist." - Matthew 17:10-13

And yet again:

"But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John [that is, John the Baptist] .

And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord." - Luke 1:13-17


All those people waiting for Elijah to physically return from heaven before the Christ - are still waiting - and in my opinion will be waiting forever.

All those people waiting for Jesus of Nazareth to physically return from heaven standing on clouds and shooting fire from His eyes at His enemies - are still waiting - and I fully expect will be waiting forever.

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[smaneck]

Don't buy it. King David ain't coming back.

Ah, but there is more than one messiah foretold:

Messiah ben Joseph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[DennisTate]

Ah, but there is more than one messiah foretold:

Messiah ben Joseph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Exactly........... King Saul..... King David and King Solomon...... were all "anointed kings/Moshiachs/Messiah's"

... the time is predicted when a level of faith/wisdom/love..... comparable to King David.... will be common place in the city of Jerusalem:


Zechariah 12:8
"In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them."

....
Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

..... the kingdom of heaven...... means a lot of things really.... one of which is the earth at the time when lions will eat straw like an ox and nothing will hurt or destroy in all the earth!!!

 

[DennisTate]

I dunno.

I.......

And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord." - Luke 1:13-17


All those people waiting for Elijah to physically return from heaven before the Christ - are still waiting - and in my opinion will be waiting forever.

All those people waiting for Jesus of Nazareth to physically return from heaven standing on clouds and shooting fire from His eyes at His enemies - are still waiting - and I fully expect will be waiting forever.

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Exceptionally well said.... light upon light.... (in my opinion anyway)!!!!!!

 

[r21c]

Will any of these important religious figures be taking a trip to Taurus Littrow, have a ride on ol commander Cernan's vehicle?

 

[DennisTate]

Will any of these important religious figures be taking a trip to Taurus Littrow, have a ride on ol commander Cernan's vehicle?

I had never read about this location previously. Sounds cool!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus–Littrow_(lunar_valley)

Taurus–Littrow is a lunar valley located on the near side at the coordinates 20.0°N 31.0°E. It served as the landing site for the American Apollo 17 mission in December 1972, the last manned mission to the Moon to date.[1][2] The valley is located on the southeastern edge of Mare Serenitatis along a ring of mountains formed between 3.8 and 3.9 billion years ago when a large object impacted the Moon, forming Mare Serenitatis and pushing rock outward and upward. Taurus–Littrow is located in the Taurus mountain range and south of Littrow crater, features after which the valley received its name. The valley's name, coined by the Apollo 17 crew, was eventually approved by the International Astronomical Union in 1973.

Since time is going to be altered somehow in the age of Messiah...... you would think that they would have all kinds of time to visit every interesting place on earth!!!!????


.near-death.com/storm.html#a04

The image of the future that they gave me then, and it was their image, not one that I created, surprised me. My image had previously been sort of like Star Wars, where everything was space age, plastics, and technology.

The future that they showed me was almost no technology at all. What everybody, absolutely everybody, in this euphoric future spent most of their time doing was raising children. The chief concern of people was children, and everybody considered children to be the most precious commodity in the world.

And when a person became an adult, there was no sense of anxiety, nor hatred, nor competition.

There was this enormous sense of trust and mutual respect. If a person, in this view of the future, became disturbed, then the community of people all cared about the disturbed person falling away from the harmony of the group. Spiritually, through prayer and love, the others would elevate the afflicted person.

What people did with the rest of their time was that they gardened, with almost no physical effort. They showed me that plants, with prayer, would produce huge fruits and vegetables.

People, in unison, could control the climate of the planet through prayer. Everybody would work with mutual trust and the people would call the rain, when needed, and the sun to shine.

Animals lived with people, in harmony.

(Howard Storm)

 

[Dialogues]

The same principle applies to the raising up of a modern King David, perhaps in a similar manner to how John the Baptist was somehow Elijah.....

And this is precisely how the prophecies of the return of the Messiah were to be fulfilled. All these people, Elijah, David, Jesus, are long dead, but people still imagine they are up there somewhere (or down there somewhere - from the opposite point on earth).

Many people have a tendency to take things literally, and reject those who fulfill the prophecies.

Peace.

 

[LoAmmi]

Many people have a tendency to take things literally, and reject those who fulfill the prophecies.

That can just as easily be turned around to:

Many people have a tendency to take things too figuratively, and accept those who don't fulfill the prophecies.

 

[Dialogues]

That can just as easily be turned around to:

Many people have a tendency to take things too figuratively, and accept those who don't fulfill the prophecies.

There will always be a dispute about fulfillment of prophecies. There is a trial in them.

But the world has moved on from the time when Israelites had prophets more or less one after the other, and at times, more than one at the same time. A large part of the world accepted Jesus despite severe opposition to him, most of whom were previously pagans or heathens. They accepted the Biblical prophets and the Hebrew Bible.

And a large part of the world accepted Muhammad s.a. despite repeated attempts to murder him and bring his movement to naught. Many of those who accepted him were previously polytheists, worshipping idols of stone and wood etc. They became monotheists, accepting not only Biblical prophets, but some others too.

So 4-5 billion people accepted these two prophets whom Jews did not. In the meantime, Jews have not had, according to Jews themselves, any prophets for about 2.5 millenia, despite at times undergoing trials worse than that inflicted by the Pharaoh(s) of Egypt. Why does God not have the sort of relationship with Jews that He had in the past?

Doesn't this not make you wonder why that may be?

Peace.

 

[LoAmmi]

Why does God not have the sort of relationship with Jews that He had in the past?

Doesn't this not make you wonder why that may be?

First, the number of people who accept something as true has no actual effect on how true it is. It could be just me and my family who believe something and the rest of the world could say I'm wrong, but if I'm right then the numbers do not matter.

Second:
Hosea 3:
4. For the children of Israel shall remain for many days, having neither king, nor prince, nor sacrifice, nor pillar, nor ephod nor teraphim.
5. Afterwards shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God and David their king, and they shall come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness at the end of days.


We were told this was going to happen. We were told that we would be without these things until the coming of Messiah. So, it really isn't that big of a deal to us that we've waited and that other people have claimed to have superseded us and mock us by asking where our messiah or prophets are.

 

[Dialogues]

First, the number of people who accept something as true has no actual effect on how true it is. It could be just me and my family who believe something and the rest of the world could say I'm wrong, but if I'm right then the numbers do not matter.

The point is that despite their apparent weakness in worldy terms, they prevailed in their mission over their enemies who tried to destroy them, just as Pharaoh tried to destroy Moses.

Also, it is quite a miracle for polytheists to accept monotheism. Despite numerous prophets been sent, the Israelites fell into idolatry in the course of their history many times, as recorded in the Tanakh.

So it is not something to be sneered at and brushed aside that over ten thousand polytheist Arabs became firm monotheists refusing to bow before idols within the course of a mission of just 23 years.

Peace.

 

[LoAmmi]

The point is that despite their apparent weakness in worldy terms, they prevailed in their mission over their enemies who tried to destroy them, just as Pharaoh tried to destroy Moses.

I think Jesus's story is overstated in the New Testament. He caught the attention of the Romans as a potential seditionist and was executed the same way thousands and thousands of other Jews were. It is said that the road into Rome was lined with executed Jews. Since Jesus's message was also mostly quoting rabbis that came before him, I'm not that impressed.

Also, it is quite a miracle for polytheists to accept monotheism. Despite numerous prophets been sent, the Israelites fell into idolatry in the course of their history many times, as recorded in the Tanakh.

So it is not something to be sneered at and brushed aside that over ten thousand polytheist Arabs became firm monotheists refusing to bow before idols within the course of a mission of just 23 years.

Indeed Maimonides, a Jewish sage, believed that Islam and Christianity were the works of divine to prepare the world for the coming of the Messiah. The Jewish Messiah showing up when most of the world was filled with polytheists who had no concept of The Messiah would not have the impact we are told in the Tanach the Messiah's coming will put forth.

What do you suspect would happen if the Jewish Messiah came tomorrow, and all Christians and Muslims realized that they had been wrong and that the Jews, who remained faithful for all those centuries, were right? I'll tell you what they will say:

53 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

That's what.

 

[Dialogues]

I think Jesus's story is overstated in the New Testament. He caught the attention of the Romans as a potential seditionist and was executed the same way thousands and thousands of other Jews were. It is said that the road into Rome was lined with executed Jews.

Except that there is no evidence he had any inclination to sedition. Are you denying the Jewish authorities had any issues with him at all?

Since Jesus's message was also mostly quoting rabbis that came before him, I'm not that impressed.

But you are somewhat impressed?

There is some wisdom in his teachings. He emphasized forgiveness more than equitable retaliation because it was a need of the time.

Indeed Maimonides, a Jewish sage, believed that Islam and Christianity were the works of divine to prepare the world for the coming of the Messiah.

The words 'works of divine' suggests they were indeed prophets.

The Jewish Messiah showing up when most of the world was filled with polytheists who had no concept of The Messiah would not have the impact we are told in the Tanach the Messiah's coming will put forth.

I don't know what impact you think will be made. The religious history shows that the prophets were opposed and attempts were made to kill them, even though Israelites had some 'preparation' for their coming. Do you think the messiah is going to be accepted by the entire world instantly?

What do you suspect would happen if the Jewish Messiah came tomorrow, and all Christians and Muslims realized that they had been wrong and that the Jews, who remained faithful for all those centuries, were right?

That is more or less what is claimed by those expecting Jesus to return, thinking they are the faithful ones. However, no one will ever return from heaven, as prophecied over a century ago:

"Remember, no one will descend from heaven. All our opponents who are living at present will die and not one of them will see Jesus, son of Mary, descend from the sky and then their children who survive them will also pass away and none of them will see Jesus, son of Mary, coming down from the heaven. Generations of their posterity will also perish and they too will not see the son of Mary descending from heaven. Then God will create restlessness in their hearts; that the day of the glory of the Cross had passed away and the world had taken another turn but Jesus, son of Mary, had still not come down from the sky. Then all the wise people will discard this belief and the third century from today will not have completed when all those who had been waiting for Jesus, both Muslims and Christians will despair of his coming and entertaining misgivings shall give up their belief and there will be only one Faith in the world and one preceptor. I came only to sow the seed. That seed has been sown by my hands. It will now grow and blossom forth and none dare impede its growth." (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Tadhkira-tush-Shahadatain)

And Elijah will not descend either.

Peace.

 

[LoAmmi]

Except that there is no evidence he had any inclination to sedition. Are you denying the Jewish authorities had any issues with him at all?

There's no evidence he existed as stated in the New Testament. I cannot deny if Jewish authorities had problems with a potentially fictional construct.

But you are somewhat impressed?

There is some wisdom in his teachings. He emphasized forgiveness more than equitable retaliation because it was a need of the time.

Yep. So did the rabbis that came before him. We did not believe in equitable retaliation.

The words 'works of divine' suggests they were indeed prophets.

No it doesn't. It means that they were permitted to exist for that purpose.

I don't know what impact you think will be made. The religious history shows that the prophets were opposed and attempts were made to kill them, even though Israelites had some 'preparation' for their coming. Do you think the messiah is going to be accepted by the entire world instantly?

The Tanach describes Israel being attacked and prevailing, so instantly? Nope.

That is more or less what is claimed by those expecting Jesus to return, thinking they are the faithful ones. However, no one will ever return from heaven, as prophecied over a century ago:

"Remember, no one will descend from heaven. All our opponents who are living at present will die and not one of them will see Jesus, son of Mary, descend from the sky and then their children who survive them will also pass away and none of them will see Jesus, son of Mary, coming down from the heaven. Generations of their posterity will also perish and they too will not see the son of Mary descending from heaven. Then God will create restlessness in their hearts; that the day of the glory of the Cross had passed away and the world had taken another turn but Jesus, son of Mary, had still not come down from the sky. Then all the wise people will discard this belief and the third century from today will not have completed when all those who had been waiting for Jesus, both Muslims and Christians will despair of his coming and entertaining misgivings shall give up their belief and there will be only one Faith in the world and one preceptor. I came only to sow the seed. That seed has been sown by my hands. It will now grow and blossom forth and none dare [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] its growth." (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Tadhkira-tush-Shahadatain)

And Elijah will not descend either.

Peace.

I have no intention of accepting what you wrote there as scripture or correct.

 

[smaneck]

Except that there is no evidence he had any inclination to sedition.

Dear Dialogues,

The very fact Jesus was claiming to be the Messiah would have been considered an act of sedition. A Messiah was a king. That's why the charge posted on Jesus' cross read, "King of the Jews."

Are you denying the Jewish authorities had any issues with him at all?

If Jesus had been killed for blasphemy the Jews would have stoned him themselves as they later will Stephen according to Acts of the Apostles.

There is some wisdom in his teachings. He emphasized forgiveness more than equitable retaliation because it was a need of the time.

I think that explains why Jesus does not so much emphasize justice, but I think there is another principle involved. As you yourself noted, Jesus never exercised political power. Individuals should forgive but communities must protect people. Christianity emphasized the individual whereas Islam emphasized the community. If someone punches me in the nose, I should forgive them. If they try and punch you in the nose, I should stop them.

 

[Dialogues]

Dear Dialogues,

The very fact Jesus was claiming to be the Messiah would have been considered an act of sedition. A Messiah was a king. That's why the charge posted on Jesus' cross read, "King of the Jews."

Yet Jesus is said to have made it clear that his kingdom was not of this world, i.e. a spiritual movement. Anyway, it was the Jews who would have made this charge (and apparently did according to the gospels), as Romans would not have been too familiar with the concept of Messiah as understood by Jews.

Infact, this is similar to the case of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad a.s., who made the claim to being the Imam Mahdi. The opponent mullahs made the allegation against him to the British government that having made such a claim, he would now wage war against the British just as the 'Sudanese Mahdi' did, who had defeated the British in Khartoum in 1885 (iirc). The British authorities became rather concerned, and Ahmad a.s. had to allay their fears by explaining that he did not believe in a 'bloody mahdi', and elaborated on his concept of jihad. Now, the opponents falsely accuse him of abolishing jihad altogether.

If Jesus had been killed for blasphemy the Jews would have stoned him themselves as they later will Stephen according to Acts of the Apostles.

There are interesting answers as to why this was so. In any case, blasphemy was a false charge against him. They were just looking for excuses.

I think that explains why Jesus does not so much emphasize justice, but I think there is another principle involved. As you yourself noted, Jesus never exercised political power. Individuals should forgive but communities must protect people. Christianity emphasized the individual whereas Islam emphasized the community. If someone punches me in the nose, I should forgive them. If they try and punch you in the nose, I should stop them.

Interesting. However, Islam teaches one to wisely chose between forgiveness and justice depending on what is more likely to bring about reform. Islamic teachings are both for the individual as well as the society at large.

Peace.

 

[Dialogues]

There's no evidence he existed as stated in the New Testament. I cannot deny if Jewish authorities had problems with a potentially fictional construct.

A whole new religion formed from Jesus, so how can one deny that his person existed, and he preached his doctrines, and some people accepted him, whilst others opposed him? The religion came out of something. Do you believe that something can come out of nothing? Even theists have some issues dealing with this question. And infact, denial of prophets is a sort of denial of God, for the signs shown by prophets increases people's faith in a Living God. If not of belief in the signs of prophethood, belief in God would diminish. Hence it is a sin to deny and oppose the prophets of God.

Yep. So did the rabbis that came before him. We did not believe in equitable retaliation.

The Torah teaches it, so what do you mean 'we did not believe' in it? I am aware that the account of Joseph is a great example of forgiveness, so I do not say it is absent from the Torah. However, it is a matter of emphasis.

No it doesn't. It means that they were permitted to exist for that purpose.

What do you mean by 'permitted'? Every attempt was made to bring them to naught, but failed. This a manifest sign of the existence of a Powerful God who helped them against their enemies.

The Tanach describes Israel being attacked and prevailing, so instantly? Nope.

The problem is the Tanakh also describes how every prophet was rejected and opposed by Israelites themselves. So what makes you imagine that whenever a Messiah comes, all of Israel will automatically believe in him and obey him, whilst others will automatically reject and attack him and his followers?

I have no intention of accepting what you wrote there as scripture or correct.

Nevertheless, it is a prophecy which will continue to be fulfilled. The world will never see any prophets ascending into or descending from 'heaven' in real life (dreams and visions are a different matter). It is mere fantasy, much like superman

Peace.

 

[DennisTate]

Don't buy it. King David ain't coming back.

Supreme..... when you pass on and go to heaven.... do you think that you would be willing to allow Messiah Jesus/ Yeshua and/ or The Father and/or The Holy Spirit to make a copy of your identity, personality and memories if He had any use for that copy?

I may be wrong.... but I suspect that ultimately there are far far more comparisons between some modern technological devices and what they can do with what our Creator can do with our human spirit- soul... than we might tend to imagine at first!